My father is a retired Assemblies of God pastor. My parents had a deep and abiding love for Jesus Christ. Their lives expressed who Christ was.
I vividly remember being awakened in the middle of the night by the sound of their praying — praying for each of the people in their congregation. Although my parents never spoke in derogatory terms about anyone, including Catholics, many of the ministers I came in contact with were not so generous. I heard more than one preacher expound on the evils of the Catholic faith. For many, it was taken for granted that the Catholic Church was the “Great Whore of Babylon” (see Rev 17), and the pope was the Antichrist.
I was in my thirties and an ordained United Methodist minister before I met a nun for the first time, Sister Monica Marie. Joetta had taught with her at Ursuline Academy in Dallas, Texas. It was through Sister Monica Marie that Joetta experienced a dynamic encounter with the Holy Spirit.
To my surprise, I discovered that this sister was truly a woman of God. My heart was warmed just by being in her presence. She was totally the opposite of all I had envisioned nuns to be.
My first contact with a priest was in 1996. While working on my doctorate at Oral Roberts University, I met Father Amalor Vima from India. As classmates, we spent a good deal of time together and became close friends. It was in this environment that something happened that would revolutionize my life forever.
During a reflective moment in one of our sessions, Selmar Quayo, a Methodist bishop from Brazil, stood and said: “In my country, as a Protestant, I am in the minority. Unfortunately, there is much animosity between our church and the Catholic Church. Many of my people are filled with bitterness toward all Catholics. Yet here, Father Vima is in the minority, and I’ve seen nothing from his life but the love of Jesus Christ.”
With tears running down his face, he said, “Father Vima, I want you to forgive me.”
I watched as these two men of God embraced. There was not a dry eye in the room. In that one brief moment, my mind began to envision a new possibility: Protestants and Catholics all over the world coming together, embracing in love, and dropping to their knees in prayer.
In this simple act, Selmar Quayo had challenged all of us to become ministers of reconciliation. My thoughts raced. Imagine what the Holy Spirit could do if Catholics and Protestants really were one.
The words of Jesus flashed through my mind: “So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift” (Mt 5:23–24).
As I watched the scene unfold, I could almost hear Jesus praying: “That they may all be one, Father … that the world may believe that you have sent Me” (Jn 17:21). I knew at that moment that I must become a minister of reconciliation.
Praying for Regan
Years earlier, Joetta and I had ministered at a Southern Baptist church in Tulsa, Oklahoma. After the service, a woman came up to her and asked if she would pray for her daughter, Regan. She did not want, however, to divulge the specific prayer need. Joetta assured her that it wasn’t necessary to know the need because the Holy Spirit would intercede for Regan. For the next year, Joetta prayed faithfully for a young lady she had never met.
At that time, Joetta was working as a technical writer for Thrifty Rent-a-Car. One day, her boss informed her that they had hired a new software trainer and were going to put her in the cubicle across from Joetta’s. They asked Joetta to make her feel welcome and to show her around.
When the new trainer arrived, she introduced herself as Regan. To Joetta’s surprise, here stood the young lady she had been praying for all those months! God was definitely up to something.
Joetta and Regan worked as associates over the next seven years. Although they never socialized outside of the workplace, they began to develop a close relationship. One day in 1995, Regan shared that she and her husband were having problems in their marriage.
Kelvin was a Catholic, and Regan was a Southern Baptist. For several years, Regan had attended the Catholic Church off and on with Kelvin, and although he did not feel comfortable in the Baptist Church, he would attend with Regan on special occasions. This arrangement worked until they had children and realized how strongly they both felt about how their children should be raised.
To Regan’s chagrin, Kelvin was adamant about baptizing and raising their children in the Catholic Church. They were at an impasse when Regan came to Joetta for advice.
Joetta told Regan that a house divided cannot stand and that it was essential that they be in church together. Joetta suggested that if her husband would not go to church with her, she should go to church with him. God would bless their marriage if Regan would submit to the spiritual authority of her husband.
Joetta informed Regan of some classes held by the Catholic Church that she could attend, without obligation, to learn about the Catholic Faith. Joetta said, “If I were you, I would want to know what my children were going to be taught so that I could counter any incorrect teaching.” For Regan’s peace of mind, Joetta added, “You go through the program, bring all the material to me, and I’ll give it to Larry so that he can check it out and see if it is scripturally sound.”
I never paid any attention to the material Regan gave Joetta, except for two things. One was a newspaper article by a Lutheran journalist discussing Marian apparitions. The author of the article had spoken at Regan’s church and told how the Mother of God had been appearing to six young children daily since 1981. Regan was so intrigued that she read everything she could get her hands on.
The second thing she gave us was a cassette by a woman who had been miraculously healed at the same apparition site. This experience had so affected this woman, a nominal Christian at best, that she committed her life to serving Christ. I took these items and started to throw them away. On a whim, I stuck them in a drawer instead.
Encountering Mary
The week before May 25, 1996, Regan told Joetta that she was going to a Marian conference in Wichita, Kansas. She was excited about it because both the author of the article and the woman who had been healed were featured speakers. Regan, however, was bothered by a prayer she had received in the pre-conference material that supposedly would be prayed at the conference. “I would like,” she told Joetta, “for you and Larry to look it over and see what you think.”
As Joetta read the prayer, all kinds of red flags went up. In almost a state of panic, she brought the prayer to me. It was the Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
As I read the prayer, the hair on the back of my neck stood straight up. “Immaculate Heart of Mary, I give to you my body and soul …” I stopped in mid-sentence.
Rage filled my heart. “This prayer is demonic!” I said, “You don’t give your soul to anyone but Jesus. Tell Regan she can go to the conference, but whatever she does, she must not pray that prayer.”
Within three days, something deep within my spirit told me I had made a terrible mistake. Remorse for what I had said flooded my soul.
I decided to take a copy of the prayer to Father Vima. “I don’t understand this prayer,” I said. “How in the world can you give yourself to Mary in this way?”
With a twinkle in his eye, Father Vima gently said, “Larry, have you ever held Joetta in your arms and said, ‘I love you, I adore you, I worship the ground you walk on’?” “Yes,” I cautiously replied.
“Have you looked lovingly into her eyes and assured her of your complete love and devotion? Have you spoken words like, ‘I am completely yours now and forever’? ‘All that I am and all that I ever hope to be is yours’?”
I was beginning to get his point. “If the truth were known,” I admitted, “I’ve used those exact words.”
“Catholics,” he continued, “would never say of Mary, ‘We adore you.’ We venerate her. We honor her. But, we would never say ‘we adore you’ because adoration is reserved only for God. It is something we give only to Jesus.
“We adore Him. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and there is no one like Him. We believe that Mary, as the Mother of God, loves and cares for us. What we’re saying in this prayer is, ‘All of me I place in your hands, and I ask you to take me to your son, Jesus.’ Mary always points to Jesus.”
As I listened to Father Vima, I began to realize how wrong I had been. Two emotions flooded over me simultaneously: shame and joy. Shame for my quick assessment, and joy at the possibilities that were opening up.
I went home and found the Marian newspaper I had put in one of my dresser drawers and began to read. As I read what Mary was reported as saying, I was struck by how biblically based were her messages: pray, repent, fast, commit your life to Christ. This was obviously not the work of Satan.
I wondered aloud, “Could this really be the Mother of God?” If it were, then what she said was important and worthy of our consideration. One of her more frequent statements was somewhat puzzling: “Pray the rosary every day.” Joetta and I knew nothing about the rosary. Perhaps it was time to discover what this prayer was all about.
As Regan was leaving for the Marian conference, Joetta gave her some money to buy a rosary. Their relationship had become strained and sometimes emotionally charged because of Mary. Joetta felt that if she let Regan show her how to pray the rosary, it would at least keep them in dialogue.
When Regan gave Joetta her rosary, she said, “What’s great is that the man who made this rosary lives just outside Tulsa, in Claremore, Oklahoma. If there’s ever a problem with the rosary, it is guaranteed.”
The more closely that Joetta looked at her rosary, the less she liked the centerpiece. “It looks like an idol. I think I’ll call Two Hearts Rosaries and see if they’ll exchange it for something else.”
“Come on out,” the voice on the other end of the line said. “Bob’s work is guaranteed, and he will be happy to replace it with something you like.”
When we arrived, Bob’s wife, Johanna, asked Joetta what was wrong with the rosary. “It’s the centerpiece,” Joetta said. “I don’t like the centerpiece.”
Johanna looked at her quizzically. “What about it don’t you like?”
“Well, it looks too, you know, Catholic!”
“The rosary,” Johanna said, smiling, “is Catholic!”
While Joetta looked at centerpieces, Bob was sharing with me what had happened to them on a pilgrimage to an apparition site in Europe. I yelled at Joetta, “Come in here and listen to this! You won’t believe this story!” These were the first Catholics that we had ever spent any time with, other than Sister Monica Marie and Father Vima.
Bob shared with us how God, through Mary, had transformed their lives. As he told their story, tears rolled down his face. He said he hadn’t stopped crying since they returned from their pilgrimage. In his words, his heart “just turned to mush.”
When they got back, Bob went in and quit his job at Amoco. He was a laboratory technician and had been with the company for more than twenty-one years. Not too long after that, Johanna quit her job at Tulsa University. God was calling them to complete obedience and dependence upon Him.
During this time, Bob met a nun who showed him how to make rosaries. Bob decided to make two rosaries: one to thank Mary for leading him to Jesus and one to thank Jesus for saving his soul. The rest is history.
All of Bob’s rosaries are lovingly handmade. He sees each bead as a prayer sent out by Mary to convert and bring souls to Jesus. I believe that Joetta’s and my conversion are the direct result of those prayers.
Drawn to the Catholic Church
After our meeting with Bob and Johanna, I was emotionally shaken. As we drove away, neither of us said a word. It was as if we had experienced an epiphany. I can’t explain it. I felt as if I had been in the presence of Jesus.
Not wanting to go right home, I pulled into a fast-food restaurant to get something to drink. As we sat there looking at each other, tears began to stream down our faces. What was happening to us? What was God asking of us?
Our lives were literally being pushed toward the Catholic Church. Regan had introduced us to the owners of the local Catholic bookstore, so we decided to go there for more information. Lee and Anita lovingly welcomed us and pointed us to exactly what we needed.
When we figured our income tax at the end of that year, we discovered that we had spent over $5,000 on books, cassettes, videos, and other materials in search of spiritual truths! We couldn’t get enough. We were in Lee’s store three and four times a day.
“We’re here for our Catholic fix,” we’d say. Lee and Anita would just laugh and point us to another book, cassette, or video. It was like an addiction that we couldn’t get satisfied. One question just led to another and another. It was a wonderful experience.
We began going to bed later and waking up earlier, trying to jam as much reading into the day as possible. We decided to maximize our time. I began taking Joetta to work and picking her up so that we could read aloud coming and going.
I would pick her up for lunch, put a couple of lawn chairs and TV trays in the trunk, and drive to a park so that we could read without interruptions. We took turns: One would eat while the other would read aloud. We did everything together. God was graciously speaking to us together, drawing us at the same pace deeper into Himself.
We read the Catechism of the Catholic Church from cover to cover. The Catechism is the greatest systematic theological work we have ever read. Answers to long-sought-after questions were coming like torrential showers.
I remember one Saturday morning in particular. We both woke up about four o’clock in the morning. We sat up in bed, each with a Bible in one hand and a Catechism in the other.
I would say, “Joetta, listen to this. This is fantastic. This just brings everything into focus!”
Before I would finish, Joetta would interrupt and say, “Larry, wait, wait. Listen to this!” She would then read from a different section of the Catechism.
We would read supporting Scripture verses, go to the writings of the early Church Fathers, and then check a commentary. Before we knew it, it was one o’clock in the afternoon!
We were like sponges. We began to see in a whole new light issues such as the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the role of Mary in the Church, prayers to the saints, Scripture and Tradition as authoritative vs. sola Scriptura, papal authority, purgatory, and salvation as a process vs. salvation as a completed work. It was like finding all the lost pieces in a huge theological puzzle. The full picture was becoming clear.
The Lord was taking us down two paths simultaneously, one intellectual and the other emotional. We had been praying the rosary and parking ourselves on Bob and Johanna’s sofa, asking question after question about Catholic doctrine, tradition, and culture. We asked God to reveal to us somehow if He was drawing us to the Catholic Church, because none of this made any sense to us.
Asking for a sign
We had spent all of our lives in Protestant churches and were quite content in our ministry. We desperately needed to know about the Church to which God was calling us, so three short weeks into our conversion, I prayed this prayer: “Father, if you are drawing us into the Catholic Church, I want a sign, and I want it big.”
Several days later on our way home from a short trip to Dallas, we witnessed the largest, most vivid sunset either of us had ever seen. It went from horizon to horizon, and we thought we were going to drive right into it — an indescribable array of colors: orange, red, and pink. It was magnificent, so much so that our young grandson, who was sleeping in the backseat, sat up and said, “Grandpa, Grandpa, do you see that? Isn’t it beautiful?” As brilliant as it was, we could look right at it.
As the sun went down, we put in a cassette tape by Dr. Scott Hahn and continued toward Oklahoma City. As I looked into the night sky, I prayed again silently, “O God, if you’re drawing us into the Catholic Church, give us a sign, and please make it big!”
At the same time, unknown to me, Joetta was staring out the passenger window, silently praying, “Blessed Mother, if you’re real, we have to know beyond a doubt.” Suddenly, I heard Joetta gasp and say, “Oh, my, Larry, Larry, look!”
As I looked to the right, I saw what looked like a chain of stars falling in slow motion at a downward angle from right to left. Just before the stars reached the horizon, they shot straight up and then fell back toward the earth again, falling right in the center of the highway. Usually a falling star shoots downward and moves so quickly you don’t have time to tell anyone about it.
We were speechless, because we both saw it! Finally Joetta broke the silence, saying, “You did see that, didn’t you?” We were both visibly shaken.
I put in a cassette by Catholic singer Dana in which she sings through the rosary, and for the next hour and thirty minutes, we prayed the rosary with her. We finished just as we reached the exit road going toward our parsonage. As we turned under the freeway and went up over a little hill, there, sitting on the road in front of us, was the most beautiful, enormous, vivid quarter-moon we had ever seen.
Like the sunset, it seemed literally to sit in the middle of the road, and it extended as high into the sky as we had seen the sun. For two and a half miles, we watched in total silence. As we turned into our driveway, the moon disappeared.
“Joetta,” I asked, “what does all of this remind you of?”
“Revelation, chapter 12,” she said. “‘A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.’”
At that moment, we knew not only that the Holy Spirit was bringing us to the Catholic Church, but that Mary was leading the way.
Two months later, Joetta and I knelt in a small chapel on the University of Tulsa campus and prayed the prayer of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Our love for her is without bounds. I had been afraid that she would somehow take away from my love for Jesus, but what I found was that my love for Him has deepened beyond measure. Truly, our cup runs over!
On September 12, 1997, I surrendered my ordination papers to Bishop Bruce Blake of the United Methodist Church. In doing so, I laid down thirty years of Protestant ministry to become a Catholic. To many of my colleagues, this seemed a horrible mistake, but to Joetta and me, it was “coming home.”
In January 1998, we made a pilgrimage to Rome to symbolize our desire to place ourselves under the authority of Pope John Paul II and the Catholic Church. In March, we made a pilgrimage to a Marian site in Eastern Europe to thank the Blessed Mother for bringing us into the Church. And finally on Easter Vigil, with great anticipation, Joetta and I were received into full communion with the Catholic Church.
This was the culmination of a twenty-three month, life-transforming odyssey. Thank you, Mary, for loving us home.
This and other great conversion stories are published in “Journeys Home” which is available on our store. Its a great book to buy and give away!
This is definitely one of the most inspiring and moving conversion stories i have read. Tears welled down my cheeks as i read it. Praise Jesus. Thank you loving Mother!
Woww! You’re so lucky and blessed to have witnessed such magnificent signs from Mother Mary & her son Jesus. As CS Lewis (or GK Chesterton?) puts its, God appears to those whose telescopes (bodies/souls) are clean.
It means, your very core of biblical foundations are weak. God will never contradict His word. It doesn’t matter what you say. The bible always tells the truth
Arnold, you have me curious. What do you see in the story that contradicts the Bible as you understand it?
First of all, thank you for your question, for this is an opportunity to explain to you what the bible says about Mary. Now we have to agree in this three important facts of the bible.
1) The bible is the inspired word of God means God Himself breathe on it, which means bible is the final authority in our faith.
2Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
2Peter 1:20 – 21
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2) There is no other truth, only the bible is the truth, means apart from the Word of God there is no truth.
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the TRUTH; your WORD is truth.
3) We cannot go beyond what is written on the bible, means the bible is complete and we should not add or erase anything from it.
1Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”……
Now if you agree with me in regards to this three important facts about the bible, then you can continue reading what I wrote here, otherwise just disregard this as you would not believe everything I will say here.
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What does the bible says about Mary of the bible?
1) She is highly favoured
Luke 1:28
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
2) Mary recognized that she needed a Savior.
Luke 1:46 – 47
And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
3) Mary did not have an “immaculate conception.”
No passages in the bible to back up this claim.
4) Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus.
Luke 1:34 – 35
“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
5) The idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary is unbiblical. Because Joseph had union with Mary AFTER she gave birth to Jesus.
Matthew 1:25
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
6) Mary’s other son’s(to prove she had union with Joseph)
Matthew 13:55
“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
7) When the three Magi visit Jesus where He was born, when they arrive there they worship Him, ONLY Him and not Mary
Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped Him.
8) Mary’s two last appearances or mentioned in the bible.
John 19:25
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother…..
Acts 1:14
They all joined together constantly in prayer, a along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
9) Did the apostles give Mary a prominent role?
Nothing in the whole New testament.
10) Does the bible said about Mary ascending to heaven or having an exalted role there?
Nothing in the hole New Testament.
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So whatever we want to know about Mary is in the Scripture. Hope this open your eyes. We should only rely on the Word of God when it come to our faith.
We should not interpret Scriptures based on personal experiences, instead interpret personal experiences based on Scripture.
God bless you….
Catholics agree with you that the Bible is the inspired word of God. They do not agree with you that it is the ONLY word of God. They also recognize the Church’s ancient Tradition as a source of divine revelation.
You cite 1 Corinthians 4:6 out of context as if it referred to the Bible as the sole source of doctrine. In context, Paul is referring to the Old Testament only, since the New Testament had not yet been written, let alone gathered into a single volume of works formally recognized as inspired; that happened only at the end of the fourth century. In fact, Paul is defending the unity of the Church as against the factions that had arisen among the Corinthians, warning them implicitly of the Old Testament history of the Israelites, who had also developed factions. This division made them weak and unable to resist their later downfall. In the same manner, those Christians who divide themselves into factions and different denominations, as the Protestants do today, not preserving the Church’s ancient unity, are headed toward a disastrous downfall.
What does the bible say about Mary of the bible? Catholics recognize that Mary needed a Savior. They do not agree that God could not provide that salvation at the moment of her conception; this previous salvation is why the angel speaks of her at their meeting as “full of grace.”
You cite Matthew 1:25 as proof that Mary lost her virginity after she gave birth to Jesus. But the original Greek text does not imply that. In the Greek language, the word rendered “until” in English does not imply anything about what comes afterwards. St. Jerome, the renowned fourth century biblical scholar, gives multiple examples of Greek usage to prove this very point. He goes on to show that your interpretation of Matthew 13:55 is incorrect by proving that the Hebrew and Aramaic usage of the word “brothers” includes not just siblings, but also cousins, uncles, nephews and even more distant relatives. It even includes those who are “brothers in the faith” — fellow Israelites. Why? because those languages do not have specific words for those other relations, while Greek does. And we know from ancient history that the Gospel according to Matthew was originally written “in the Hebrew tongue” and only later translated into Greek. So your conclusion does not follow.
Furthermore, those “brothers” mentioned by the crowd in Matthew 13:55 are in Matthew 27:56 and 28:1 identified as sons of a different woman named Mary, not Mary the mother of Jesus Christ.
You imply that Catholics worship Mary; they do not. This is an anti-Catholic invention. Catholics honor Mary as they honor other human beings; they do not consider her a divine being equal to God.
You then say that Mary is not found in the New Testament after Acts 1:14. This is incorrect. The apostle John writes of her in Revelation 11:19–12:6, referring to her as the living Ark of the Covenant now in heaven. Who else but Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ? Again, in 12:17, the woman is portrayed as the mother of Christians as well as of Christ personally. How do you explain this?
Therefore, Arnold, I must ask you to correct your own view of Holy Scripture, basing it on facts and not on hearsay.
A blessed evening to you….anyway what is your real name anyway?
To start explaining everything I wrote here. As you know that every book in the bible doesn’t contradict each other, they are all in HARMONY. It means what is written in the Old Testament supports what is in the New Testament and vice versa. So it does not matter if the Apostle Paul was referring to the Old Testament. Still we don’t have to go beyond what is written.
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Now about that salvation that “God could not PROVIDE Salvation at the moment of Mary’s conception”. We don’t believe this, because God can provide salvation for He is the Lord ALMIGHTY means He can do all things.
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Now referring to Mary as full of Grace. Mary was full of grace but rather scripture uses the word “Highly Favored”. Let us says that Highly Favored is also Full of Grace in other translation of the bible. But she was full of grace not because she is but rather the one inside her womb is Jesus who is Full of Grace because Jesus was with her(the Lord is WITH you).
Luke 1:28
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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Now in regards to this scripture with the word “UNTIL”, let us read carefully and even a 15 year old child will understand this and let us add also the verse prior to that verse with the UNTIL
Matthew 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
Matthew 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Who are the characters in this verse?
Joseph, Mary and Jesus
What are this verses is telling us?
This verse are part of the context in regards to Jesus BIRTH. In verse 24 it says that Joseph obeyed what the angel told him, and according to that scripture he(Joseph) took Mary as his WIFE. So it means they are husband and wives.
Now let us read verse 25..” But he(Joseph) was referring to Joseph who had NO UNION with her(Mary) referring to Mary, then the word UNTIL, that word until was referring to that previous condition which has NO union and after she(Mary) gave birth to a Son(Jesus) referring to Jesus.
So it means in other words Joseph had no union with Mary until Mary gave birth to Jesus. So Joseph and Mary had union after Jesus was born. This is so common sense as they were HUSBAND and WIVES. I hope this is clear to you.
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Now in regards to that word “BROTHERS”, you said this is sometimes referred brother’s in faith, as cousins or nephews uncles or distant relatives. But let us read what the scripture says, let the scripture explain this to us.
Matthew 13:55
“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
Matthew 13:56
Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
Haven’t you notice that this are all QUESTIONS and the people that ask this question is their neighbours. and since they are their neighbours this people knew about Jesus as carpenter and not as messiah and they knew His FAMILY. They even took offense on Him because they only knew Him as carpenter, as He was preaching the good news.
Who are the character in this verses?
Son(Jesus), Carpenter(Joseph), Mother’s name(Mary).
The first question they asked is “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son?” which is they are referring to His father…
The second question is “Isn’t his mother’s name Mary?”
which is they are referring to His mother
The third question is aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
Which is they are referring to His brothers
The fourth question is Aren’t all his sisters with us?
Which is they are referring to His sisters.
First question as started with the father, mother, brothers and then sisters. So all the questions are referring to Jesus direct family which is FATHER, MOTHER, BROTHERS and SISTER and not brother in FAITH, cousins or distant relatives.
If those word brothers are as referring to brother’s in FAITH, how is it that the following scripture when Jesus was with His disciples(brother’s in faith) and then suddenly Jesus Mother, and brother’s was looking for Him.
Matthew 12:46
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
Matthew 12:47
Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
So it means that this verse was referring to His Father, Mother, Brothers in flesh NOT brother in faith or any other thing.
Matthew 13:55
“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
Matthew 13:56
Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
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Now lastly about that verse in regards to that woman mentioned in Revelation 12:1.
Let us remember that this book is foretelling us what will happen in the FUTURE. Now the scripture says:
Revelations 12:1 A great and wondrous “sign”……
John plainly said that this is a sign, we don’t expect this women to appear literally on the earth. God will use this sign to communicate something to John and to us.
Revelation often refers the word women represents a religious system. just like the word “The Great Harlot” is associated with false religion, “The Bride” is associated with the church.
Now the woman in that scripture with moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Revelation 12:1
……..a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
This verse was not referring to Mary, if the book of the revelation was foretelling us the future, how is it that Mary was again pregnant in this scripture, but rather this women represents “ISRAEL”.
The twelve stars was referring to the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
Look at this scripture Genesis 37:9-11
The Holy Bible, New International Version. Pradis CD-ROM:Ge 37:9.
Genesis 37:9
Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
Genesis 37:10
When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked w him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”
Genesis 37:11
His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind
Joseph had a dream of sun, moon and the eleven stars bowing down to him, you might ask me why is it this eleven stars (not 12) is referring to twelve tribes as well, well because if you add Joseph to the eleven it would be 12 stars including him.
so in short the 12 Stars in revelation was referring to 12 tribes
Woman represents ISRAEL
Dragon represents Satan
Man-child referring to Jesus
Angel Michael referring to head of the angelic host
Offspring of the woman representing Gentiles who come to faith
Beast out of the sea representing Anti-Christ
Beast out of the earth represents false prophets who promotes the anti-Christ
So in summary of all this, I will never change my view of the Holy Scriptures, because I am basing all of this according to the Holy Scripture. Look like all your basis are hearsay….Bless you bro, may the Lord Almighty open the eyes of your HEART, so that you will see the truth…..
Hello again, Arnold.
“…what is written in the Old Testament supports what is in the New Testament and vice versa. So it does not matter if the Apostle Paul was referring to the Old Testament.”
This does not follow. The New Testament did not exist at the time Paul wrote. Therefore, he could not be referring to it. To say that this “does not matter” makes no sense because it does not adhere to the facts. “Supports” is not the same thing as “repeats,” and the two testaments would have to repeat each other for your assertion to have any significance. But in that case, why are there two? Your assertion seems to be confused nonsense.
“Now about that salvation that "God could not PROVIDE Salvation at the moment of Mary's conception". We don't believe this, because God can provide salvation for He is the Lord ALMIGHTY means He can do all things.”
You are again confused here. That God CAN provide salvation to Mary at her conception was MY assertion. You have not supported the contrary, which is your stated belief.
“…scripture uses the word "Highly Favored".”
No, “Scripture” does not use this phrase. It is only in the version you are using (NIV). The one I am using (RSV-CE2) has “full of grace,” a rendering which dates back to the 4th century AD in the Latin Vulgate (“gratia plena”). Your favored rendering is of modern origin.
I might also object to the distinction you are attempting to make between “favor” and “grace.” Theologically, “divine favor” is the same thing as “divine grace.” Therefore, the two renderings are equivalent, and you have no argument.
“Let us say that Highly Favored is also Full of Grace in other translations of the bible. But she was full of grace not because she is but rather the one inside her womb is Jesus who is Full of Grace because Jesus was with her(the Lord is WITH you).”
Another confused statement with an attempted distinction that cannot hold. Mary remains, like Paul (Acts 9:15), a vessel of election, chosen for a particular and important task in the history of salvation. She is the mother of the Messiah, and what she contains redounds to her own holiness (Luke 1:42–45). This is why Catholics refer to her as the Ark of the Covenant (Revelation 11:19–12:17).
“Now in regards to this scripture with the word "UNTIL", let us read carefully and even a 15 year old child will understand this and let us add also the verse prior to that verse with the UNTIL.”
You are anachronistically using modern English to explain a scriptural passage that is 2000 years old and originally written in Aramaic. This is untenable. St. Jerome, the 4th century biblical scholar, explained the meaning of “until” in this passage and many others in his Contra Helvidius. He also refutes many of your other assertions concerning Mary. Read it here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm .
“Haven't you noticed that these are all QUESTIONS and the people that ask this question is their neighbours. and since they are their neighbours this people knew about Jesus as carpenter and not as messiah and they knew His FAMILY. They even took offense on Him because they only knew Him as carpenter, as He was preaching the good news.”
You defeat your own assertion: the crowd “only knew him as.…” They did not REALLY know him, or they would not have said those things. This lack of knowledge is known theologically as “the messianic secret.” Look it up.
“Let us remember that this book [Revelation] is foretelling us what will happen in the FUTURE.”
Not necessarily. It is a prophetic book, but not all prophecy is about the future. Certainly some of it is, but if you read the prophets, you will see many prophecies about contemporary occurrences, such as the reasons why something bad has happened.
“John plainly said that this is a sign, we don't expect this woman to appear literally on the earth. God will use this sign to communicate something to John and to us.”
But signs are, by definition, “literal things on the earth.” Otherwise they would be purely imaginative and prove nothing. Again, you defeat yourself.
“This verse was not referring to Mary, if the book of the revelation was foretelling us the future, how is it that Mary was again pregnant in this scripture, but rather this women represents "ISRAEL".”
As I said above, you misunderstand the purpose and methods of prophecy. It is not necessarily about the future. There are many prophetic passages in Scripture that speak of the past and the present. There are, in fact, many that speak of the future in terms of the present or past. In Revelation 12, John is speaking of the Incarnation, which has already taken place materially in history but continues as Christ is born in the hearts of new people spiritually until the end of time.
Furthermore, Mary does not have to be “again pregnant.” Prophetic visions often place historical events in the present or future. Again, you show your ignorance.
“[The]Woman represents ISRAEL.”
Yes. She also represents, as I have just now indicated, the Church. And most literally — as the one of whom Christ was initially born into the world — she represents Mary. We need not negate the one in order to affirm the other, because this is not how prophecy operates. Prophecy works mainly on the principle of both/and.
Example: Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el.”
You know that this verse refers to Christ only because it is so interpreted in Matthew 1:21–23. But it just as legitimately refers to someone known to King Ahaz, so that he would believe Isaiah’s prophecies and stop allying his kingdom with those who will soon be shown as his enemies. After all, it is a sign for HIM, not only for Christians. Again, we need not deny the one to affirm the other; it is a case of both/and, not either/or.
In the same way, the prophecy of the woman in Revelation can be seen as a case of both/and, where it refers to all those things mentioned: the chosen nation of Israel, the Christian Church, and Mary, the mother of Jesus. This is a matter of typology. Mary is literally and historically the mother of Christ. Israel is figuratively the “mother” of Christ, even though the nation as a whole and especially in its leaders rejected him, for Christ arose from them. And the Church is figuratively the “mother” of Christ because its task is to bring him into the world through preaching and sacrament for the people of every time and place until the end of the world.
This is how most commentators of Scripture understand the passage. If you would truncate the prophecy, you would be in the minority.
“Offspring of the woman representing Gentiles who come to faith.”
Most commentators would not limit the “offspring” to Gentiles. There were Christians among the Jews as well, and these Christians “keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” just as much as the Gentiles. Again, we need not deny the one to affirm the other; both/and.
“Looks like all your basis are hearsay.”
I am using Scripture and commentaries and theologians open before me as I write. Where is the hearsay?
“…what is your real name anyway?”
All you need be concerned about is the little tag on my user name that says “Mod,” for Moderator, assigned by the Apostolate that runs this website.
The user name itself refers to Ephesians 4:4–6: “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.” The “one body” refers to the Church, the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:22–23); the “Spirit” to the Holy Spirit, the bestower of unity. The “one hope that belongs to your call” is Christ, our redeemer; he is also the one “Lord.” The “one faith” is the Catholic faith, which has been from the beginning of Christianity the only true faith. In like manner, there is only “one baptism,” the baptism of the one Church in Christ. And finally is the profession of faith in “one God and Father of us all.” If there is only one God, why are there so many hundreds of separated denominations? 1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”
Well as you said your using commentaries and theologians. The Holy Spirit is telling me to tell you the truth about the Word of the Lord. All I need is the scripture and the Holy Spirit that is in me. I did not use any
commentaries or rely on any theologians but rather everything comes from Him who saves which is Jesus. I am praying that you see the scripture not with your physical eyes but with the eyes of your heart. Bless you.
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
“Well as you said your using commentaries and theologians. The Holy Spirit is telling me to tell you the truth about the Word of the Lord.”
Arnold, you are gravely deceived. You cannot find an answer to the Scripture and scholarship I presented, which I admit is not my own, so as an expedient you claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who speaks with as much confusion and error as you have demonstrated here cannot be under the influence of the Spirit of Truth. Anyone who speaks with as much cockiness and pride as you have here cannot be led by the Holy Spirit, who upholds the humble. I will pray that you be delivered from your error and deception.
I am not in confusion and gravely deceive because everything I said is in His Word, not coming from any other commentaries rather what the Holy Spirit put in to my heart. You are blinded by your religion, you always resist what the Holy Spirit is saying to you. May the Lord Almighty judge between us.
Oh Arnold, I love your innocence! I showed you your confusion. I pointed out from Scripture itself where your assertions were wrong. Yes, I relied on commentaries and other aids to guide me to proper interpretation; one should not be his own authority. Who is your guide? Your claim to be led by the Holy Spirit is full of holes. I enumerated them. Show me where I am wrong.
“You are blinded by your religion, you always resist what the Holy Spirit is saying to you.”
Be honest, Arnold. I am debunking what YOU are saying to me, because it is not reasonable. You are manifestly not the Holy Spirit, nor sent by him.
“May the Lord Almighty judge between us.”
I would rather that we could be reconciled.
2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Everything you have said is out of context…..Bless you….I will pray for you that the Lord of Host appear to you in your dreams…..Bless you….whatever your name is…..I wont reply back anymore because its pointless it doesnt matter how I explain to you.. You are really blinded by your religion