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Michelle1982
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| First Name: | Michelle | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant services at military chapels, Bible, Baptist, Berean, Calvary Chapel, ... |
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 02:04 am |
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Well, I am moving forward in RCIA. I am back for good hopefully.
The Lord is going to have to hold my hand very tightly though.
But anyways, in class tonight, we talked about Mary and the fact that Muslims honor her and the fact that there is some bishop that thinks they will be in heaven because of their honor for her. First of all, how is that relevant to a bunch of people who are just learning about their faith. Second, even the devil believes in Jesus and shudders.
Then, someone asked if the church was the only way to heaven. I said Jesus is the way. Some of the people in class were offended. Then one of the lay leaders said that the church teaches that there will be people in heaven who do not know Jesus. True...... But that is not something to advertise. Plus, I think that is more pertaining to far off tribes and people in other countries who have never heard the Gospel. It is not the everyday American who outrightly rejects the Gospel. But, the lay leader said that there will be good people in heaven who did not know Jesus. I again, said yes, but we still need to preach the Gospel. Later on, one of the ladies in class said she wanted to quit becasue I said that Jesus is the way to heaven. I had to apologize to here after class. She does not think that a loving God would send people to hell. Some other people in class also got on my case.
You know, my class is losing the point. Yes, we need to honor Mary, the Saints, et...
But, it is still about a relationship with Jesus Christ. I am soooo frusterstated. Then, I have some of the people tell me to continue to ask questions. Basically, as if I have not knowledge. At times, I can see why Martin Luther was ticked at the Catholic Church. He went about it the wrong way. But, I am really understanding his frusterations. My RCIA is a joke. I make people mad becasue I say that Jesus is the way in a church class. There is a problem....... A huge one.........
We really need to pray for the church that Christ established. There is much work to be done. Also tonigh, one of the girls in class said that she didn't know you weren't supposed to pray to Mary. She thought you needed to pray to Mary and not to Jesus. Then, she even said that the rest of her family only prays to Mary and not Jesus.
There is definately ignorance. This wouldn't be such a big deal if I didn't have to defend these kind of ignorant Catholics to my protestant friends.
ughhhhh..................
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"..............From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." Luke 12:48
"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." J
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 02:53 am |
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Michelle, I understand your frustration. You are right, Jesus IS the way.
Suppose I told you that to find your way to a destination, all you had to do is follow the yellow stripes on the floor. Does that mean you are barred if you happen to be blind? Or is there a possibility that you might be able to find the path even if the yellow stripes are not visible to you, through no fault of your own?
Yes, Jesus is the path. Those of us who have been blessed with the knowledge of Jesus can keep our eyes on him and if we do, we will surely find our way. But those who through no fault of their own cannot see Jesus can still navigate the path. It's a lot harder, and there's a much greater chance of making a wrong turn, but it is possible.
The Church teaches us that outside the Church there is no salvation. Like the blind man and the yellow stripe, it is possible for those outside the Church to follow the path set forth by the Church. But it's a whole lot harder.
For those who say they pray only to Mary, ask them what they pray. If they say the "Hail, Holy Queen", it ends "show us the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The "Hail Mary" ends, "pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." When we pray to Mary we are simply asking her to help us find Jesus. The blind man will have no problem following the yellow stripe if he has a sighted person to lead him. Mary is our guide to Jesus. Yes, we can find the way, but Mary and the saints already know how to get there. It's easier to follow a guide than a set of directions, and it's easier to follow directions than to set out blindly.
But as Catholics, we do it all. We seek on our own, we ask the saints to be our guides, we let Mary take our hands, and we keep our sight firmly on Jesus. That's why the Church is the best way.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 02:54 am |
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Later on, one of the ladies in class said she wanted to quit becasue I said that Jesus is the way to heaven. I had to apologize to her after class. She does not think that a loving God would send people to hell. Some other people in class also got on my case.
Michelle, I sympathize with you. You were absolutely right — and I’m sure you know it — when you said that Jesus is the only way to heaven.
Jesus himself said, “I am the way, the truth and the life” (John 14:6), and St. Peter said, “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12; compare Compendium of the Catechism 81).
It is also true that the Church is the only way to heaven, because the Church is the mystical body of Christ, his presence and influence in the world at large as well as in the hearts and lives of the faithful. It is also the universal sacrament of salvation (Compendium 152).
To say that because God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4) and that others outside the Church “can be saved” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1260, 1281), therefore all human beings, regardless of their disposition or behavior, will surely be saved goes beyond the facts. As much as God desires us to come to him, he has given us the power of self determination and will respect this gift. We, not he, determine whether we will go to heaven, and in the end he gives us what we want.
The Catechism further explains in 851: “It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, ‘for the love of Christ urges us on.’ Indeed, God ‘desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth’; that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.”
Again the Catechism in 1058: “The Church prays that no one should be lost: ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.’ If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him ‘all things are possible’ (Mt 19:26).” Possible, yes, but not certain; else why pray? Salvation requires our cooperation (Catechism 306; 1993); it cannot happen if we do nothing toward that end.
Your consolation: it’s only a few weeks more to Easter. Hang in there.
David
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 03:20 am |
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Michelle, don't forget Colossians 1:24. Offer up all the frustration, rejection, aggravation you are experiencing for the salvation of souls. Also remember that tribulation helps us gain patience.
These trials can be beneficial for those needing salvation as well as for your own spiritual growth.
I know it's hard. Be strong. Be faithful. Be patient. You're almost home, girl!
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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garyb444
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sacramento, California USA |
| Posts: | 20 |
| First Name: | Gary | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal, Fundamentalist, SDA, Eastern/New Age/Spiritualism, to Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 02:59 pm |
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Hi Michelle,
Before I started RCIA, I talked at length with the owner of a local Catholic bookstore, and she was very helpful to me. She told me to always check what you're being taught in RCIA against what is in the Catechism. This way you know for yourself what is the truth. And if you find that you're being taught something that doesn't jive with what's in the Catechism, you definitely have the right to say something to your teacher.
Hang in there. Easter's almost here (for me too...)
Gary
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 06:51 am |
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CajunRick wrote:
But those who through no fault of their own cannot see Jesus can still navigate the path. It's a lot harder, and there's a much greater chance of making a wrong turn, but it is possible.
The Church teaches us that outside the Church there is no salvation. Like the blind man and the yellow stripe, it is possible for those outside the Church to follow the path set forth by the Church. But it's a whole lot harder.
I think I see what you are saying and agree, but where I would want clarification were I not Catholic, is that salvation (though our works have something to do with it) is not necessariliy a matter of being a good enough person or following a path with mere human effort. I think that this is what Paul is saying can not save us in Romans. That works can not save. Works of the Jewish law, or works of an obligatory nature. The only thing that saves us is God's mercy and our responding to it as best we can. Perhaps this is the path that you speak of, but I do not fell comfortable implying that others may get saved if they happen to live good enough lives or that somehow it is possible to be a good enough person to earn your way into heaven apart from grace.
Things I realize you did not say, I know you realize the necessity of grace, but I still feel like sometimes we do not make as clear as we could when speaking on those who may be saved outside the church. Meaning, I think it is not simply necessarily that they were good people who did good works, so much as why they did the worksthey did, and how much they were responding to truth and grace and how much they appealed to God's mercy as best as they could understand it. Meaning, that I think even a non Christian would be saved by faith and not works without faith. It is just a misguided faith or incomplete faith. But they would still get to heaven because they desired the mercy of God and lved to honor Him as well as they understood, and by the nature and merits of Christ's incarnation death and resurrection. Without blood there is no forgivenss no matter how good we acted. Anyone gets there because somehow the mystery of Christ has lifted us up and redeeemed washed and forgiven us.
Ultimately I can not say who or why which people will be saved, but I doubt any oen will be saved who either did no good works, nor anyone who did good works, but was not sorry for their sin and in some way desiring to know God ie by faith. Salvation is through faith and works together even for the non Christian. No one will be there simply because they were just that worthy of it based on their righteous acts independent of the forgiveness and grace that moved them. If this is what you mean by following the path of the church then I am definitely with you.
I think this summed it up well.
"God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation."
What is salvific is responding to the prompting of the Spirit God as best we can and not any independent righteous activity. The question of non Christians who live good lives is whether they are obeying and cooperating with the Holy Spirit and appealing to God in some way, or if they are still rebelling against God and refising His soveregnty in their life in some significant way and clinging to sin and darkness. We can not judge them, but until we see an individual rejoicing in the truth of the gospel with us we pray and evangelize and trust in God's mercy for those we fail to reach or seem to fail to be reached.
Brian
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 05:26 pm |
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Michelle (and others),
I see this example in your RCIA class of a teaching that has been misconstued and carried to the extreme. Recently I participated in a Protestant forum where a question was asked. "Will people who have never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ go to Heaven?" I responded that we don't know and we entrust them to the love, mercy and justice of God. Can we really be judge and jury over the souls of those who have never had the opportunity to hear the gospel? Read Romans chapter 2 to get a better picture of what I'm saying. Of course there were those who outright said that people who have never heard the gospel are going to Hell. That is the one extreme in Protestant circles. Thus, the urgency on the part of many evangelical churches to send out missionaries - which is a good thing.
On the other hand, the extreme in the Roman Catholic circles (from what I have observed), is that Muslims love the same God we do and therefore will go to Heaven. Islam teaches that Christ never died upon the cross and that for God to die upon a cross in such a manner is repugnant. Their teaching blatantly rejects Christ's Passion. Jesus to them is merely a good man, a prophet. Their teaching opposes the diety and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Also, teaching rejects the Trinity and even goes so far as to question that our Lord Jesus ever died upon the cross of Calvary, andthat it was someone else. Now of course not all Muslims are dedicated to the teachings of Islam and therefore may not believe or embrace all of these teachings. I know that there has been an increased effort among many evangelicals to preach the gospel to Muslims because they are the fastest growing religion in the world. Which is definitely not a good thing, because it is the radical branch of Islam that is growing.
The problem with just assuming that Muslims are saved/going to Heaven, is that it can breed a complacency within the Church not to preach the gospel to them. After all, if they are already going to Heaven, why bother? Which brings me to the extreme of some Calvinists. There are many that believe since God already predestined who would be saved and who would be lost, then why be concerned about preaching the gospel. Those who are going to be saved will be, and those who won't, won't be saved.
While we cannot judge the eternal destiny of those who have never heard the gospel of Christ, we cannot assume that any one group of people are going to Heaven and therefore we can just leave them be as they are. Complacency and apathy toward others' salvation will be the result.
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the Father except through Him. The exception to this truth in Scripture should not be the basis upon which we view those who are not Christians. Rather, we should desire, as our Heavenly Father does, that all come to a knowledge of the truth, which can only be found in Christ Jesus.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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brian
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 04:48 am |
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| Well put Darlene.
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StephenC
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 05:09 pm |
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Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
What I am saying is that who or who does not go to heaven is God's domain. We should not asume though they will gain salvation on the idea that God will give them a "free pass" because they did not know better.
Last edited on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 06:10 pm by StephenC
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Hidden One
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 11:08 pm |
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I think it mgiht be fitting to see what the saints who keep getting mentioned have to say... and thus, I hereby present a sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice on the matter of "The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved". http://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml
Edited to fix link
Last edited on Fri Feb 29th, 2008 12:44 am by
____________________
1 John 4:7-12
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 02:43 am |
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Hidden One wrote: I think it mgiht be fitting to see what the saints who keep getting mentioned have to say... and thus, I hereby present a sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice on the matter of "The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved". http://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml
H1, welcome to the forum. We're glad to have you with us. Unfortunately you have posted a link to a schismatic web site not in union with Rome. I have left the link in place since St. Leonard is a recognized saint by the Catholic Church, but I would advise our members that any other information posted on this web site is unreliable, and much of it directly contradicts the Catholic Church's teachings.
As our Forum Guidelines state, the Coming Home Network forum is faithful to the Magisterium of the Church. If you are here to learn more about the Catholic faith as held by Catholics in union with Pope Benedict XVI you are welcomed here. However, we do not permit other agendas, and the web site you listed certainly does not represent the Catholic faith in a fair and honest manner.
Still, we are glad to have you here with us.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Hidden One
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 08:05 pm |
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Thanks for the welcome. I just wanted to link to the sermon itself - I shoudl have put a warning about the rest of the website in my post.
____________________
1 John 4:7-12
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 09:27 pm |
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Hidden One wrote: Thanks for the welcome. I just wanted to link to the sermon itself - I shoudl have put a warning about the rest of the website in my post.
No problem, I just wanted to make sure no one else was misled.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Cathcon
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 03:56 pm |
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Gary, I am so sorry that you and Michelle have had such bad experiences in RCIA. I teach at our Local parish and we use two tooks - one is Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft - his in depth explanation following the format of the Catechism and then also The Adult Catechism by the United States Bishops - can recommend these.
Welcome home to both of you
Marie
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 04:50 pm |
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Cathcon wrote: Welcome home to both of you
And we welcome you to our forum, Marie. We look forward to reading your conversion story when you have the opportunity to share it with us. Meanwhile, take your shoes off and get comfortable.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 05:01 pm |
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Welcome Marie. Always nice to see another Kreeft fan aboard. He's one of my favorites.
Rich
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lifetone
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 08:32 pm |
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Hi Michelle,
Wow, yes, continue to pray for the Catholic Church even harder now - they've decided to take ME under their wing.  Thank God.
I just feel led to mention how much the current Pope has blessed me in terms of his writings. He has a very good idea about what is going on globally. Also, he is pretty hard-nosed in terms of correcting a lot of those types of errors and not always being so nice with leaders who commit them. But yes pray hard for the Church and all people for the enemy is prowling the world even though seeking those whom it may devour and it apparently has an especial issue with the One Institution it cannot prevail against.
Anyway, hoping and praying that you came into full communion even as I did! The rest of the posts dealt very well with the whole subsists in business so I won't retread. I'm mostly reading posts to see all the other happy smiling faces.
Blessed be God forever!
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lifetone
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Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 02:00 pm |
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Hi guys,
I prayed about this too over the weekend. Sometimes I flag things to talk about Him later - and language and Eucharist were two of the topics over the weekend - when I have a couple hours to spend talking.. Anyway, it's funny but the main thing I wanted to say was someone else said stay for the Eucharist and I felt bad for not seconding that motion.
The Eucharist is hard for me to present as a reason for staying with the Church because it's more like the reason I can't even seriously consider leaving no matter how offended I may be. And I'm sure you guys will have your moments. It happens. But it is hard for me to imagine what you could possibly do that would cause me to consider leaving.
Second, I will pray for the bishops and all those in authority as regards the liturgy. They are the ones who have to make these calls and perhaps - as in other matters - they are not always doing rightly. But unity here is so key that I'm not sure we are doing the right thing to be unduly critical of one another. Maybe the local leaders in some cases need to have a more active and correct role and in others priests need to obey their bishops. And in other cases the lay people need to present their cases to those in authority. But it seems to me that this kind of practice needs to be dealt with on that level - and that is what the bishop's purpose is - precisely that kind of thing?
Maybe, possibly?
This is what I thought the Catechism taught along with of course those reasonable limits placed on it by the Holy Father in terms of keeping things in right order and universal so all the faithful could be celebrating in unity. But again, that is for them to decide and I can't imagine even being horrified or appalled at whatever they decide.
I'm used to having to go to God and pray about whether, for example, I should still remain in a church which expects me to believe that Jesus is going to come and remove us all for seven years while the rest of the world stays behind to suffer the worst torments in human history. Is it worth having *a church* where at least they believe abortion is wrong, Jesus truly is the Son of God, God is still around - if it also means accepting that? And agonizing for months over it. Now that was honestly horrifying and appalling and not even that some people believed it but that the leadership *taught* it - officially - en masse. And all the while at the same time it is not that the Catholic Church refuses to stand up for issues either - but it seems to have a lot of good sense in terms of which issues when.
It's kind of like oh boy yet another reason I'm proud to be Catholic, something in the news lately!! My Muslim friends are in a serious huff because the pope decided to baptize this extremely vocal former Muslim at the Easter Vigil. And they hope that their brothers and sisters don't respond in kind(?) by doing violent things.
Okay so perhaps this former Muslim has said some extremist things not always in keeping with the teachings of the Church, but in choosing to personally baptize this man at this holy and precious time the Pope was making a violent anti-Muslim statement? By baptizing someone? And I agree it was a big, public way of saying that yes, I believe Christianity is better than Islam. Which I know ... who says things like that anymore? Great job, Pope Benedict. Nice move.
God is also laughing at me because I had to buy this CD because I have ... illegal ... copies of some of the songs on it but then in Confession I said I was going to buy the CDs I had illegal copies of and listened to all the time - not that the Father said I had to, but I've been meaning to for a long time anyway - really! But then once you say it in Confession it's like ... oh boy this is for real now ... so I bought her CD and I've never heard this song by her before. Her name is Yuki Kajiura and she's not Christian at all, I don't think. In fact her audience is pretty much hardcore New Agers.
I got the CD this weekend, it took a couple weeks cuz of shipping time, and it was like okay more Latin because she has this one song called Salve Nos (Save us? I do know some Spanish and so I can sort of translate some words) I'm having to look it up to understand what the words mean, there is something about Pie Jesu and Jesus so I know it's something to do with Jesus, and Dominus Deus which I think means Lord God(?) Anyway, it was funny. Really. You probably had to be there when I opened the CD all like, fine God, I'm doing what I told the priest I'd do. Fine, sheesh. I already have all the songs on here that I actually want to listen to.. Wait ... I've never heard this one before..
My dad said he used to have a missal with English-Latin translation growing up when everything was in Latin and Latin is so useful to know (along apparently with German and Greek) as it is the root for many words. I'm a reformed English major with a nice respectable job in Computers - but I still love language very much. I will pray about this and trust Him to take care of it. He really is good for it!
Now I'm hushing up but I felt duly corrected over some of the unwise things I had said while I was freaking out a bit last week. Well not freaking out exactly.. Just a little emotionally excited. I'm better now, and hopefully will get better, from glory to glory by His grace and to His glory. God is so good all the time.
It so so awesome that you and the Father consider me worthy to be among you, simply as a fellow human being created in His image who has come here of my own free will to join with you.
God bless guys!
Anne
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5101 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 05:36 pm |
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lifetone wrote: in choosing to personally baptize this man at this holy and precious time the Pope was making a violent anti-Muslim statement? By baptizing someone? And I agree it was a big, public way of saying that yes, I believe Christianity is better than Islam. Which I know ... who says things like that anymore? Great job, Pope Benedict. Nice move.
The pope was indeed making a statement. He was saying that freedom of religion is important even in Muslim countries where it is illegal to be Christian, or where Christians face persecution and even death. Perhaps if the Muslims in those countries would freely allow Christians to follow their religious beliefs, there would be no need for such a public statement.
I don't think it was intended as a statement that Christianity is better than Islam (although, of course, we believe that Catholic Christianity is the ultimate faith), but rather that all humans have an inherent right to freely choose how they wish to worship God, and that government and society should not interfere in that decision.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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lifetone
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Harrisburg, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 53 |
| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Wiccan/New Age, Pentecostal, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 07:19 pm |
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Hi Rick,
Wow if you could help me at all in how I talk to my Muslim friends I'd appreciate it.
I don't mean anything mean against them, of course, when I say that Christianity is better than Islam - on a regular basis. But neither am I quite prepared to necessarily agree for example with Benazir Bhutto and the like that all faiths are equal ways to God, although this of course is a far more admirable Islam (or Christianity) than one where there is "complusion in religion," which of course is also forbidden by the Qu'ran. At the same time I greatly admire Bhutto's writings and mourn her untimely death and pray sincerely for her salvation and those of people like her. In part I simply greatly admire some of the things our present Pope wrote as Cardinal Ratzinger critiquing some of the trends of modern Europe, in particular its loss of religious faith and our unwillingness therefore to regard some faiths as better, morally, intellectually superior to others. I saw this act as one in that vein, especially given some of the things Allam said (far more extreme obviously than *anything* Holy Father ever said, even before being made pope).
This is something we often say on both sides, and I respect them for saying that they believe all people should be Muslim - in fact I often say that I am Muslim too - submitted to God's will - or I try to be. It is not saying - as some would like to color it - and therefore we are justified in going to war against you. It means for example Islam is "better" and this is why I am Muslim - as opposed to Christian - or vice versa. Because I believe that is the right way to believe.
And I honestly hope and pray that all would have the chance to know the truth and to see freely. So that all might, with free opportunity, freely choose which faith to follow.
While believing with all my heart that Jesus is the Son of God - that He said He was the Son of God and also that He actually died upon a cross and rose on the third day. Therefore the Qu'ran which states otherwise cannot be true. Not that I do not sincerely love my Muslim friends very, very much. And respect them. But Christianity is superior (how else to say this?) because it believes the truth about Jesus. Again, this is "better." It is the truth. And it is a truth I mention often because I believe there are important truths that Islam marginalizes by not believing these things.
And also, I honestly think with the pope's background and what Muslims are basically saying (because trust me, they got that whole business about the free will aspect as well) they doubt this whole our religion is equal to yours business. I'd doubt it too. Not to say we cannot all live together as human beings created in the image of God - or at least created by God as superior to all creation (as the Qu'ran teaches.) But as we do so we can and should (again the Qu'ran teaches that they should do so) consider our faiths using our brains.
That's the kind of thing I say to them..
But I'm gathering maybe(?) from a Catholic point of view that might be too exclusivistic of an approach? I don't want to bring any dishonor to the Church in this regard or to stop talking to them either..
But it is hard for me to even consider denying that I believe the Christian faith is superior to all other faiths, as preserved by the Church. That is why I joined the Church. And where the Church is at odds with either Muslims or other denominations I believe that the Church is correct - and that it is important..
Maybe this isn't the right forum for this and if so I'm sorry but I'm really really bad at this, at talking to people of other faiths. God only knows how often I just want to hide in my little hole and yet it feels like we *need* to talk. Any help is so much appreciated to be able to dialogue better.
Also as a new Catholic I guess I'd really like to learn how Catholics do this. How do you talk to people of other faiths? I mean, you don't believe that Christianity is better than Islam? I'm not saying that to be mean, just really trying to understand. I have been greatly impressed by the humility and love of Catholics I've known who are not so much about trying to convert people. Actually, neither am I and a lot of my Protestant friends had a problem with that (rock and hard place!), with me wanting to see people happy and at peace as opposed to seeing them converted (which I nonetheless believe is to their greatest benefit and will help us to be happy and at peace.)
I'm just confused and a bit intrigued about you, Rick, who I admire because you always have something intelligent to say do not consider Christianity as better than Islam. what exactly that means..
So maybe I'm still too Protestant and gung ho in this? I dunno.. I would really like to do this right. Sorry for yet another long post and if this is the wrong forum and sounds contentious. You guys have done so much for me already and I'm kind of like ... wow, can they help with this too maybe?? But if not that's okay too. I feel like I'm definitely asking for too much now. Actually one of my best friends in interfaith dialogue was a Catholic and he said things kind of like you Rick. I don't know him anymore, that was a couple years ago but if I did, I'd probably ask him what that means. He never tried to convert me either but I found it admirable how he was able to draw on such a rich Tradition in discussing the faith. Too bad he's still not around or I'd ask him. Hm.. Maybe this is more one of those on the job training kinda things? I wish I'd been paying more attention at the time. Thanks so much for your time!
Anne
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Parodyonlife
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Corning, New York USA |
| Posts: | 113 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | NEW CATHOLIC!!! W( ) ( )T!!! |
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Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 08:18 pm |
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You hit the nail on the head Ann
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