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abbycat
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 11:36 pm |
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I have read in this forum the term "Catholic mindset" vs. "Protestant mindset." Exactly what is the Catholic mindset?
abby
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 12:00 am |
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| I would imagine a mind that has been trained in Catholic doctrine, that thinks in terms of a Catholic/Christian world view.
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abbycat
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 12:06 am |
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At the present time, I am not Catholic, and I have a Christian world view. Is there anything unique about a Catholic mindset/world view?
abby
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 12:39 am |
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abbycat wrote: At the present time, I am not Catholic, and I have a Christian world view. Is there anything unique about a Catholic mindset/world view?
abby
I'd like to take a stab at this, but I think I'll wait for some of the mods to reply, who are better equiped to give a more acurate and detailed answer.
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 01:01 am |
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Since I have no shame, I'll take a stab at it.
I think the protestant mindset is a general view of religion and is lacking in specifics and substance. For example, they have a general view of sin and pray for forgiveness in generics while Catholics view sin in specific terms and ask for specific forgivenesses. The same is true for the protestant's "Lord's Supper" They see it as a generic ceremony where grape juice or water or whatever can be used while Catholics believe is doing it exactly as Christ did it with a type of Passover bread, wine and the same approach and attitude that Christ and the disciples had.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 01:12 am |
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BodRod wrote: Since I have no shame, I'll take a stab at it.
I think the protestant mindset is a general view of religion and is lacking in specifics and substance. For example, they have a general view of sin and pray for forgiveness in generics while Catholics view sin in specific terms and ask for specific forgivenesses. The same is true for the protestant's "Lord's Supper" They see it as a generic ceremony where grape juice or water or whatever can be used while Catholics believe is doing it exactly as Christ did it with a type of Passover bread, wine and the same approach and attitude that Christ and the disciples had.
This is not true in regards to sin, having been in Protestant land for a number of years, many of them name their specific sins and are encouraged to do so. I don't think Protestants lack in substance, but in athority, who's in charge anyway?
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DrDave
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 01:30 am |
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I've been following a thread on another forum where the Original Post (OP) asked if there was scriptural support for the Catholic teaching of Transubstantiation he suggested he wanted to evaluate the Catholic claims for himself, decide if they were true or not, and then move on to the next subject. This kind of approach, while common to those with a Protestant “mindset” is completely alien to the Catholic “mindset”.
For myself as a “cradle Catholic” (baptised at 10 days old) my approach to a subject would be to ask what the Church teaches on a particular subject, accept it as true, and if I had trouble reconciling this teaching with any position I may have personally held on the subject, seek to understand why the Church holds this position so that I may clearly see the flaw in my own thinking.
The underlying assumption is what is different in both cases. The Protestant assumes that with his trusty Bible in hand, and the Holy spirit in his heart He can find the Truth. The Catholic assumes that the Church through Apostolic Succession already has the “all truth” that Christ promised, and seeks to know it more clearly.
Regards Doc
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Intercessor
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 01:47 am |
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Abby, you may find parts of this thread helpful.
There's a discussion of how Baptists often need a change of attitude
when becoming Catholic. (I did, anyway. )
click here
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setapart
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 02:51 am |
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Abbycat,
As one who has struggled in my journey back to the CC from over 20 years in non-denominational and charismatic churches (I was born and raised as an active Catholic) I will give it a shot to try to at least add some words in an attempt to answer your question.
I have been blessed to have fellowshiped with very devout Christian men and women who love the Lord with all of their heart. I do not think that they would consider themselves to have a "Protestant" mindset, especially since my experience has been with non-denominational churches all of this time. They would like to consider themselves as"fully devoted followers of Christ." So to try categorize Christians as having a Protestant mindset may catch many off guard. Yet in spite of that, there is a great difference between those of the evangelical fold and of the Catholic fold regarding how we think or in other words, come to trust in what we believe. With evangelicals "what you believe" is of utmost importance regarding the central tenets of Christiananity. With many believers including myself without correct "believing" you are lost.
There is a great emphasis on Bible study and of the preaching of the Word of God. Having been blessed with having the opportunity to particiapte in small groups, we would go over a topic or a certain portion of Scripture and ask each other what we think about what was read. Or we would discuss the pastor's sermon that was preached. There is also bible teaching that may be done from a book over a period of time. If someone would bring up a point of doctrine or want to discuss a particular moral issue we would find our answer in the Bible. This is all the more emphasized by the popularity of the radio show, "The Bible Answer Man." If I would pick an example of "Protestant thought" it would be that show. Basically ALL doctrines had to pass the litmus test of "Orthodoxy" based on "historic Christianity", which by the way, definitely did not include long standing Catholic teachings and doctrines. Teachings such as the "oneness doctrine", "health and wealth", denial of the Divinty of Christ, etc. was struck down as not passing this litmus test.
All of this is based solidly on the doctrine of faith alone and sola scriptura. The thought of having a "Magisterium" or "Pope" declare dogmas that were not explictly and literally mentioned in the Bible were considered extrabiblical and therefore not valid or to be trusted. The Bible is the SOLE RULE of FAITH - not TRADITION. Tradition according to their way of thinking is "extra-biblical".
This is what has caused me much grief over the last few years because my mind has been conditioned to trust only the Bible and what I got out it. If a teaching of the Catholic Church did not "add up" to my understanding of what the Bible said about it, then the Chruch HAD to be wrong, no if's, ands, or buts. It is MY way of believing that is of utmost importance everything had to pass my own litmus test in order to be valid.
From what I have read of others who have come home to the CC from evangelicalism this is what many of them had to struggle with also. To trust in a Pope or a Magisterium on his/its own authority would take a huge leap of faith. And this is what makes the point of Faith Alone so contradictory it takes Faith or Trust to allow oneself to be guided by someone outside of your own MIND or UNDERSTANDING. But isn't that what Proverbs teaches us - to trust in the Lord with all of your heart and lean not on your own understanding?
I hope that I did not make this any more confusing for you. May God continue to guide you on your journey.
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 06:26 am |
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abbycat wrote: I have read in this forum the term "Catholic mindset" vs. "Protestant mindset." Exactly what is the Catholic mindset?
abby
Um, look at Dave and Rick and I think that you'll probably see a good example of Catholic mindset, ha, ha!  Sorry, couldn't resist! Just kidding guys! Although, they are fine examples of Catholic guys, no doubt!
Seriously, I am not sure that Catholic mindset and Protesant mindset are the best terms to use. Um, speaking as a Protestant (and I don't know that that is any longer the best term to use either - I don't necessarily protest the Catholic church and feel affection for and kindess towards and admiration for my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ), I think that perhaps the best way to describe Protestant mindset may be that simply the so called protestant denominations are not under the authority of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy, are seperate organizations from them. Also, you see, you have to divide so called Protestant churches up into those which have a hierarchy, a church structure, and those which dont. For example, the United Methodist Church, the Anglican Communion churches including the Episcopal Church, Presbyterian churches etc. have what they call Bishops (well, the Presbyterians don't have Bishops, they have other names for their leaders) and various officials who have a certain amount of control, of varying degrees, depending upon the denomination. On the other hand, the Baptist Churches, Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, among others, have churches which have only local control. For example, the Southern Baptist Convention denomination has churches which are all locally owned and operated by the local church only. Usually a so called Board of Deacons (lay members who serve in various ways and control the church sort of like a mini-legislature or board of trustees so to speak) and the Pastor or Senior Minister (usually a seminary trained or Bible college trained person who has been ordained as a minister according to the generally accepted practices of the denomination and practiced by the local church - the local church ordains, by the way, and other churches have the option of accepting or not accepting the ordination if the Minister goes to another church unlike the above mentioned structured churches where the ordination is approved of and done by the Bishop and must be accepted by all churches) who, in addition to having clergy duties is also sort of like the President or a Governor, so to speak. Anyway, these local Baptist churches send delegates, usually called "Messengers" to local Associations, state level organization conventions or to the national Southern Baptist Convention where they vote to allocate money for various things such as Missionaries, seminaries and so forth as well as vote on appointing staff for denominational institutions, etc. The President of the Southern Baptist Convention is not the Baptist "Pope", but, instead, simply presides over the national convention and has some appointment influences over who gets appointed to certain jobs, etc. The local church can tell the local, state or national organizations to "go jump in the lake" and there is not much these organizations can do except to say that "Whatchamacallit Baptist Church" is no longer part of our fellowship to which Whatchamacallit Baptist Church can give them the "raspberries" and go their merry way. I believe that the proper term for such churches is "congregational" and some, in some areas of our nation, are actually called "congregational".
As for theology, most of the protestant churches have beliefs which are the same as those expressed by the Athanasian Creed, Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed although some actually use those creeds and some don't. The Southen Baptist Convention has the so called "Baptist Faith and Message" statement which pretty much says the same thing as these aforementioned creeds. Now here, we have to further differentiate because some of the Protestant Churches accept the concepf of Sacraments whereas some, like the Baptist denominations do not. Baptists believe in Ordinances, primarily Baptism and The Lords Supper/Communion as well as Holy Matrimony. Now the Christian Churches/Disciples of Christ/Churches of Christ say that they believe in "Ordinances" however, they nevertheless believe that one MUST be baptized in order to receive salvation so that actually means that they defacto DO believe in at least the sacrament of Baptism whether they admit it or not. Baptist churches believe that Baptism is not necessary for salvation, that FAITH in Christ is the key, however, they feel that one who believes SHOULD be baptized if at all possible. Some of the Protestant churches believe that the Lords Supper/Communion is very similar, in nature, to what the Roman Catholics believe while some regard it as a ritual "memorial meal", in memory of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ for our sins commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ for us to do. Some churches have Communion/the Lord's Supper every Sunday, some have it once per month, usually on the first Sunday of the month, and some have it only quarterly. Some, a lesser number, even have it less frequently than quarterly. Some practice "open Communion" - anyone who believes in Jesus Christ, the crucified, risen, living Son of God as their Lord and Savior may participate (Catholics, too, if they wish), that is, may receive, and some fewer practice "closed Communion", only local church members may participate. Some Protestant churches use actual wine, in a chalice or in individual cups, and the traditional unleavened bread, specially prepared in a prayerful manner, and some use non-alcoholic grape juice (this is how Welches brand grape juice got its start, by the way) and either the traditional unleavened bread or regular bread or crackers of some sort. With the exception of perhaps some so called "high church" Anglicans/Episcopalians, the "host", the Communion wafer or bread as Protestants might refer to it, is NOT the subject of adoration although the elements of Communion ARE greatly respected and honored neverthess and Communion/the Lords Supper is carried out in a very meditative and very reverent manner. Some liturgy may be used or some churches just sort of pray and partake without a particular liturgy.
One big difference between Roman Catholic Churches and Protestant churches is that, except for funerals (and except for the Anglican/Episcopal Churches) the dead are not prayed for after death (again, except for the immediate time of death, if possible and at the funeral and burial). Also, while Protestants generally agree that the dead who have received salvation are in a state of bliss with Jesus, they tend to feel that it is not proper to pray to the dead such as Saints or, most notably, to Mary, Mother of Jesus. Protestants recognize that Mary was a very, very special person and a wonderful example for us all, however, other than being Christ's mother and, as time went on, a follower of His, she has nowhere near the same status as she does in the Roman Catholic Church. Again, the memory of her and what she did is respected and honored (during Christmas, it is a great honor for a young lady to be selected to portray Mary, Mother of Jesus, in a Christmas play or pageant and usually only those girls or women of the most upstanding, virtuous character are selected to do so when these plays or pageants are held), however, she is not prayed to and is not regarded as having any special influence on earth, generally speaking. Some Protestants tend to have the feeling that when Catholics get to heaven, they will likely rush past Jesus, saying "hi, Lord" and rush over to see Mary FIRST just to provide an image which might help the reader understand the Protestant position (not that it would actually happen). Again, they DO recognize that Mary is a very special, unique woman who, a virgin, was blessed to conceive, through the special action of God, our Lord and Savior and priviledged to be His excellent mother, here upon earth and, later, a devoted follower of His, however, again, Protestants do not regard her as being someone to whom one should pray, do not regard her as having special status or activity among humankind other that what I have just described [PLEASE don't gripe at me, I am just sharing what most Protestants believe - not all but most].
So, I will leave it up to any other commentators to summarize what I have said, if you wish. I am just going to leave it at that. "What does Marshall believe?", you may ask. Well, I am probably somewhere between a Roman Catholic and Protestant. I leave open some doors to the possibility that my dear Catholic brothers and sisters may be correct about some things if not all things which Catholics believe. Frankly, God has not yet made it plain to me whether or not one side or the other are correct. So, as one who can subcribe to the Baptist Faith and Message (for the most part, not entirely sure about the "ordinances" concept) and as one who can subscribe to the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed and Athanasian Creed, I am simply saved by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the virgin born, crucified, risen living Son of God and stumble on after Him, following Him.
By the way, back in the mid 70s, just before my wife to be and I got really serious about each other, though we were already very close to being engaged, one night I was asleep in my parents' house in Bristol, Tennessee. I had done my devotionals and prayed earlier and then laid down to sleep. At some point in the night, I had a vivid dream, perhaps even a vision, I have never been sure. However, I dreamed that Jesus came to the foot of my bed and that I quicky sat up in great respect for Him and in awe that He was there. I dreamed that He simply looked at me and gently, lovingly, yet as also a command said "FOLLOW ME!". Then, He was gone! I awakened to find that I was sitting bolt upright in bed as I had been in the dream, looking at where, in the dream, He had been standing. I have never forgotten that night. So, again, I just continue to try to follow Him. And, although my last name "Buckles" comes from a place in England, where my ancestors lived, called "Buck Hill", later slurred to "Buckle" in the English fashion of doing that (we picked up the "s" on the last over here in the United States), I have also wondered, sometimes, if the Lord wants me to somehow be like a "belt buckle", somehow helping to bring together other Christians of other denominatons, being sort of like a belt buckle, helping to hold them together. Don't know. I just know that although like a flying buttress, supporting it from the outside, I have great respect and admiration for the Roman Catholic Church and for my Catholic brothers and sisters.
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abbycat
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 04:28 pm |
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Setapart .... thank you so much for your careful and thoughtful response ... that does help quite a lot. You're absolutely right about trusting the Bible, not trusting totally in any man's views but always "reconciling" them with God's Word. I guess this is probably one of my stumbling points, as it may have been for you ... how can we attribute the total God Mind to an earthly human and just accept everything he says as truth? I really don't want to inflame anyone, but this is tough for me ... suppose something is handed down that to my way of reading it in the Bible, does not line up? What is one to do? Are we to just accept it as fact and truth, even when it does not seem to be? Like I said, I really don't want to anger anyone, but these are the things that seem to be really hard for me.
One thing I am in total agreement with re. another poster is the way the Protestant community has taken Communion. It has become little more than a once a month ritual, with little meaning and thought behind it. That is very, very, sad indeed, and frankly I consider it close to blasphemous.
Again, Setapart .... thank you so very much ......
abby
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abbycat
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 04:36 pm |
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For EMBuckles ..... wow, thank you so much. You, also, are explaining this so beautifully. Yes, you're absolutely right on several fronts ... the Pope for one, the "Perpetual Virginity" of Mary, and praying to the Saints, none of which are in the Protestant Denominations. In fact, you know as well as I ... in some sects, those things are highly criticized. One benefit I do have now is that being a part of an Evan. Lutheran Church, whose Sr. Pastor was a former Catholic Priest, I have grown to love the Communion, or Eucharist. While I can't say I see it as real blood and flesh, I do know that to me, it has far more meaning than it ever did before. This is a tough journey for a long-time Protestant, for sure, but I am convinced that God would not have placed the people in my life He has, nor directed me to the books He has, not made my mind extremely curious and interested in the R.C. Church, if He did not have something new in mind for me.
Again, thank you my friend ....
abby
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 07:55 pm |
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Abby, glad I could help. The Protestant denominations are kind of complicated, in various way. My dearly beloved wife is a life long Baptist. When we were married, she said that she did not mind visiting other churches, from time to time, but felt most comfortable remaining a Baptist so I joined her church so that we would be in the same church. Most Baptist churches accept baptisms, by imersion, from other denominations, however, as it happened, my wife's church, at that time, did not(my wife had not previously been aware of that and was surprised to learn it). So I ended up having to be baptized for the second time in life which I prayerfully went through as an act of fellowship with that church and a witness to them of my faith (the Minister, an Interim, they were between Pastors at the time, who baptized me did mention, during the service, that I had been previously baptized and that I was giving them, the church, a testimony of my already existing faith and salvation. When we moved to the Richmond, VA area, later on, we learned that the church we had joined would have accepted my first baptism. So, to date, I humorously tell my wife that having been baptized in a Christian Church, confirmed in an Episcopal Church and baptized again in a Baptist church that I am obviously "holier than thou." She laughs and says that my "holy glow" makes a nice night light, ha, ha! Guess if I ever got confirmed in a Catholic Church, my "holy glow" would be so great that she would have to sleep with sunglasses!!
Anyway, I think that there were some understandable reasons why, at that particular time, some people broke off from the Catholic Church, sad to say. I think that God does have many ways to preserve the faith. However, I think that human beings, those who came to be Protestants, failed by failing to later try to reconcile with the Catholic Church, to somehow work things out. Someday, those of us who believe will be together in heaven I firmly believe. Until then we can only pray that interdenominational dialogue will continue and that perhaps someday we, or those who come after us, will somehow, with God's help, work things out to rejoin as one church.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 09:21 pm |
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I think it is an excellent question and quite tough to answer concisely, as with all "large and lumpy" issues or inquiries. In a nutshell, I would say that there are big differences in the two approaches to Christianity and the Christian life.
Bear in mind, first of all, that whenever one is talking about "Protestantism," one must necessarily generalize, and there are always exceptions, since Protestants disagree with each other about virtually everything except the existence of God and that they are not Catholic.
The "Catholic mindset" above all, is the willigness to submit to the judgment of the Church and Tradition, as opposed to what is called "Private judgment" on the Protestant side, whereby the individual can dissent against Church and Council if he or she feels bound to do so by virtue of what they believe is the (contrary) teaching of Scripture.
Historically, one can date this approach from Martin Luther's "stand" at the Diet of Worms in 1521, when he appealed to Scripture alone and claimed that the Church and Councils "can and do err." That was a big turning point.
There are lots of other things. Many people have talked about how Catholicism approaches most theological matters with a "both/and" perspective, whereas Protestants tend to dichotomize and divide things and unnecessarily pit things against each other ("either/or"). Fr. Louis Bouyer, convert from Lutheranism, has called this a "dichotomous mindset." He wrote a wonderful book that discusses a lot of these worldview or presuppositional differences, called The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism.
Catholics are generally less individualistic, which goes along with the Protestant "mindset" of the individual and his Bible and His conscience and the Holy Spirit, etc. The Catholic always asks: "what does the Church teach about so-and-so?" "What has been the consensus of ages past and all the great saints and doctors and fathers of the Church?" Many Protestants (but not all, by many means) would think first and foremost, "what does the Bible teach about so-and-so?" Recourse to the Church and history of doctrine often never even crosses their minds. We appeal to the Bible, too, of course (ironically, and a bit humorously, on a Protestant blog, recently, I was basically chastised for citing too MUCH Bible!). The difference is that we don't dismiss or discount the Church's say in the matter. And that is because we believe in an infallible Church. Protestants do not.
I've also noted many times how Protestants tend to have, in effect, a "priesthood of scholars" and that they are always endlessly searching for theological truths, as if some or many can never be obtained with certitude. They want to "reinvent the (theological) wheel" in every generation. In some ways this is almost a reduction of the Christian faith, to mere philosophy, where the quest for truth is endless and never has a definitive stopping-point in a lot of areas of inquiry. Catholics believe that most if not all major theological doctrines have long since been resolved. They still develop, and there are still areas where we can disagree (plenty to talk about and mull over), but by and large we accept what has been passed down as true and feel no need to endlessly "quest" and "explore" for "truth" (or to relativize doctrines where Christians disagree, as if they are unimportant).
The following papers of mine delve into this "mindset" thing in one way or another, and from various different angles:
150 Reasons Why I am a Catholic
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church: Including a Searching Examination of Various Flaws and Errors in the Protestant Worldview and Approach to Christian Living (Al Kresta; edited and transcribed by Dave Armstrong)
Questions and Answers: Concerning Catholicism, Over Against Protestantism (Transcript of a Television Interview)
Protestantism: Conceptual and Developmental Errors
Response to Rev. Michael Pahls on "Theological Humility" and the Protestant "Non-Quest" Regarding Christian Certainty (with Anglican Rev. Michael Pahls)
Why I am a Catholic / Why I am a Lutheran / The Protestant Myth of Origins (with Lutheran Eric Phillips)
SOLA Scriptura vs. SOLO Scriptura, or, "Why History is Important For All Christians"
Protestant Ecclesiology and Epistemology is Always Ultimately Self-Defeating
400 Million "Popes": Protestant First Principles on Authority Are Inevitably Arbitrary, Unbiblical, and Viciously Self-Contradictory (+ Discussion) (with Baptist pastor Ken Temple)
Private Judgment: Its Meaning and How it is Viewed by Protestants and Catholics
Last edited on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 09:24 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 09:27 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote:
There are lots of other things. Many people have talked about how Catholicism approaches most theological matters with a "both/and" perspective, whereas Protestants tend to dichotomize and divide things and unnecessarily pit things against each other ("either/or"). Fr. Louis Bouyer, convert from Lutheranism, has called this a "dichotomous mindset."
Ah, then this explains how I've become a "walking dichotomy"! 
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"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 09:35 pm |
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Abby, I see that Dave Armstrong has mentioned briefly what I had in mind, concerning Louis Bouyer’s “dichotomous mindset” concept. I will flesh out what is meant as an aid to your understanding.
The statement, in its simplest form, was a description of the origin of heresy, applicable to any ideology or religion. We need to keep this in mind to avoid pointing of fingers where none is intended.
Heresy, so it ran, is the undue emphasis of a certain portion or aspect of doctrine at the expense of another. Therefore, if the orthodox doctrine expresses its acceptance of “scripture and tradition” as the sources of revelation, heresy would demand that this be reworded as “scripture or tradition” and that one choose between them. The result is that “scripture alone” becomes one heresy, while “tradition alone” becomes another.
Another example is the orthodox concept of “faith and works functioning in harmony,” which in heresy is divided against itself as “faith or works, choose one.” Thus we have the “faith alone” camp and the “works alone” camp as the resulting heresies.
Let us consider a third example: “faith together with reason directing the whole man” is split apart by heresy into “faith alone” (fideism) and “reason alone” (rationalism), each with its militant adherents.
And a fourth: the tenet of “free will and predestination together” (actually a Catholic doctrine) is held to be contradictory, so it is demanded that “free will” be exclusive of “predestination” and vice versa. Thus we have, on the Protestant side, the Calvinists (predestinationists) in one camp and the Arminians (champions of free will) in another, splitting Protestantism in two.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains the corresponding Catholic position, which refuses to consider the terms contradictory but rather distinguishes more closely what is meant by “predestination”:
CCC 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” (Acts 4:27–28; cf. Psalms 2:1–2) For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. (cf. Matthew 26:54; John 18:36; 19:11; Acts 3:17–18)
Perhaps this whole line of reasoning will be strange to you. If it is, this in itself demonstrates that there is in fact such a thing as a Protestant mindset on the one hand and a Catholic mindset on the other.
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 09:43 pm |
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| This has been another great appeal of the Church to me, I drifted from church to church in the past, I could never rest on any doctrinal issue, I could never settle in my mind who was right? This became a great burden to me, praise God I don't have to do that anymore, I can trust the Church! There is unity here I've never seen before, how can there be a plethora of doctrinal beliefs when most claim to be expositors and steeped in hermanutics?! They all claim the Bible as the final judge in the court of appeal, and all arrive at different conclusions, this is impossible!
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abbycat
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 11:50 pm |
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A huge thank you to "both Dave's." I really appreciate your well-thought-out responses to me. As I think about all this ... you are absolutely right ... one of the biggest voids in the world of the Protestant is that, with most, there is hardly any history. There are some exceptions, of course, but there is very little, if any, spoken of "early church fathers." As I continue reading books by Godly men, many of whom are Catholic, I realize the large role history and tradition play in their foundation. We have none of that in the general Protestant world. And ... you are so right ... we have church "splits" (the word itself is sad), with some frequency. A church splits because of some difference in doctrine - something each "side" considers crucial to them ... and off they go. I have always thought this must grieve our Lord. It is as if they are ripping Christ's Body into pieces. I don't think this is part of the Catholic parish history.
There is a lot to be said for "sameness in theology." I am sure that there are many subjects on which my dear friends at my present church and I disagree ... and some of them are of utmost importance - at least as I see it - such as abortion, marriage, to name just 2. How can we really live out our faith if we are all believing differently and living out our faith differently? It doesn't seem possible to me.
And, as I have said in a previous post, I have grown to love even the brief liturgy I have at my Lutheran Church ... when your heart is truly set on Him and on the words you are reading or singing ... how can one not be touched.
One of my long-time and closest friends is a woman I met 20 years ago while at a large mega-church. She and I were both on staff, she still is. When I left and joined the Lutheran church, she was horrified .... to her, as with many others, denominations of any sort were all wrong. Now that I am on this new journey, I have not told her of it. I am fairly sure it would bring about a very large response on her part to "make me see the error of my ways." And, it will be hard, should she not be able to accept my new and immature search as valid and safe. I fear for our friendship, but that, too, is in God's Hands.
abby
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 01:09 am |
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abbycat wrote: I have read in this forum the term "Catholic mindset" vs. "Protestant mindset." Exactly what is the Catholic mindset?
Let me give you a quick example.
From Genesis to Revelation, we read of the "woman". In Genesis, she crushes the serpant's head; in Revelation she wears a crown of 12 stars. Protestants will question whether the woman represents the Church or Israel. Some might even ask if the woman is Mary.
A Catholic will say that the woman is all three. Our viewpoint tends to be broader. Instead of there being one meaning, we see many, and recognize them all as correct.
Protestants tell us that we should not use a crucifix because Jesus is no longer on the cross. Catholics see the sacrifice of the cross as a timeless sacrifice that is eternally being offered, and is made present again in the mass. Protestants tell us we are crucifying Jesus all over again; we say we are making the eternal sacrifice present once again in the Eucharist. We are re-presenting the same eternal sacrifice offered once for all.
Protestants say how can it mean this and that at the same time? We say it can and it does. God encompasses all truth. Thus Jesus can tell us Christians that baptism is necessary for salvation, and still offer salvation to those who, through no fault of their own, have never known of their need to be baptized. Protestants will say that Catholics believe we are saved by our works; Catholics say that our works demonstrate our response to our salvation.
We abbreviate it by saying that the Protestant mindset is "either/or" while the Catholic mindset is "both/and".
Does this help?
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 02:58 am |
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Following is a link (assuming it works) to the Baptist Faith and Message. I simply submit it for your information, not defending it or arguing anything about it. I'd be interested in your comments about it if you care to read it bearing in mind that the Baptists have been debating the latest version of it too, ha, ha.
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asp
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