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Michelle1982
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| First Name: | Michelle | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant services at military chapels, Bible, Baptist, Berean, Calvary Chapel, ... |
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Posted: Tue Jan 8th, 2008 05:28 am |
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Well,
I have some bad news. I was again not able to make RCIA tonight, due to work.
Earlier. today, I called up my parish and explained my situation. I wasn't able to talk to the RCIA director yet though. But, the others all told me that in my archdiocese, I have to make the classes and that they can not meet with me privately. If I want to be accepted, I might have to wait until next year, since I have already missed some classes. They said, it didn't matter how much knowledge that I have, it has to be done this way. I don't understand why I can't meet with someone privately. They said there are some people in the class who have taken 2,3, 4 years to finally be accepted in the church. I am very annoyed. I guess that Los Angeles county for you though.
It is already insulting enough being put in the same category as unchurched people or people who are getting back into church, but never understood their faith to begin with. But, then again, most of you know what I am going through. Forgive me for being arrogant, after I spent how many years in Christian School, Bible studies,et....... and then the Bible Institute that I attended, et....... I want to be accepted. I guess it might take a couple years.
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"..............From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." Luke 12:48
"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." J
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DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 8th, 2008 08:41 am |
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Two things come to mind when reading your comments. Firstly I would advise contacting the diocesan offices. Either the person in charge of RCIA or the person in charge of them (The Bishop). It may be that your Bishop has made a blanket rule that ALL converts MUST go through RCIA, but I would seriously doubt it. I also seriously doubt that it is mandatory to attend RCIA in the parish in which you reside so they might be able to advise of another parish whose dates and times are more accommodating of your schedule.
The second thing that comes to mind is what Jesus said to Saul on the road to Damascus "Why do you persecute ME" we have to remember that the Church IS the Body of Christ. I know that you know you sound arrogant, but consider this ... If Christ, acting through the Church (His body) is annoying and insulting you then maybe you need to take a step back for a little while and reflect on Christ's prayer in the garden "Not My will Father, but yours". I don't say this to attack but simply to offer perspective, Lord knows I'm also one for getting a "bee in my bonnet" about something "I" want, especially if I consider it to be something that God "should" want too.
Take comfort in knowing that the Lord knows the desires of your heart, He knows (and I would suspect approves ) of your desire to be joined to Him as part of His body the Church, He knows of your frustrations, But at the end of the day He wants what is TRULY best for you.
Often a child will want to eat candy until they can eat no more. Often young immature care givers will let them because they want the child to be "happy". Usually, older more responsible care givers will limit the amount of candy a child has enduring screams tantrums and tears, often with their own heart breaking out of sympathy, but wanting only what is best for the child.
We are all "Children" in God's eyes and there is no older, more responsible, more loving care giver in all the universe, and ALL He wants is what's best for us. Sometimes it's hard for us to recognize that, but our failure to recognize it does not change it's reality
Regards Doc
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Flowerchild
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Washington USA |
| Posts: | 35 |
| First Name: | Terri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian to nothing to Lutheran to now Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 05:23 am |
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Hi Michelle,
I can feel your pain. I spent well over a year looking for a Parish that offered RCIA that would work within my schedule. With my family who is not all that hip on my conversion, I tried to find somewhere that would be the least disruptive to them.
After searching and searching, I decided to attend a Parish that I felt the most at home at and where I really liked the sister who was in charge of RCIA. The problem was that it was on Sundays and it was about 3 to 4 hours long. Those are the hours of class time and I still had a half hour drive each way. Needless to say this caused nothing but discord in my household. I ended up missing a bunch of classes.
Still I prayed and prayed that something would change for my RCIA class. I was not sure that I would ever become Catholic if I had to go to classes on Sundays. Going to Mass is one thing, but class all day was too much. I knew that if class was held on a weeknight that there would be no problems, and there would be family harmony. I finally prayed to God “If you want me to become Catholic you need to help me with RCIA”.
At the end of August I tried another Parish, it was a Parish that I had somewhat written off (but that is another story for another time). This Parish I knew had their classes on Sundays too, but I thought by the off chance that something might have changed. To make a long story short  , I received a call a week later from the gal running the RCIA program. During our conversation about the program she asks me if it would be ok if the classes were moved from Sunday to a weeknight. I about fell to my knees!!!
I am now at a Parish that I find that I love, the RCIA director is great, and the people in the class or wonderful and diverse.
What I am trying to say (in a way to long a way) is to not give up. Go to different Parishes and see what they are doing. Talk with other Priests that might be willing to help you. Leave no stone unturned. I went to the web and researched different Parishes and read about their RCIA programs. For me, I was willing to drive out of my way to find the right fit, because becoming Catholic is that important to me.
The funny thing is that the Parish I am now attending classes at is only 3 blocks from my house. (I think there is a Wizard of Oz metaphor in there somewhere.)
Good luck and God Bless you on your journey.
Terri
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Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
St. Francis of Assisi
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Daffodil
Member
| Joined: | Sat Apr 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 88 |
| First Name: | Daffodil | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | not attending church, New Age, Episcopalian, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 01:17 pm |
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| If you cannot attend class on a particular night, then make that clear. If it is a matter of not prioritizing, then that is one thing--but if it is completely out of your control, then that cannot be held against you. You are not arrogant in the least for your concern over this. However, from what I can gather, you are telling your instructor that you will "try" to make the class. If you cannot, then do not say you will "try." If you can, then don't try, make it happen. *hugs* Be assertive about your limitations in schedule, and make it clear whether or not these limitations are short-term or long-term. If all else fails, look at the RCIA program at a neighboring parish.
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My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior....
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TeamRCIA
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 21st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 2 |
| First Name: | Nick | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 03:24 pm |
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Hi Michelle. I'm sorry to hear that the process of becoming Catholic is so difficult for you. It's no excuse, but it may help to know that the process for receiving other Christians into the Roman Catholic Church has gotten a bit confused with the restoration of the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. The RCIA is mean primarily for unbaptized people. However, many parishes mistakenly believe it is meant as a process for all "non-Catholics." We're still learning the best way to implement this rite, and we're going to make some mistakes for a while. The best thing you can do right now is be patient and persistent. Think of this as an opportunity to minister to the leaders of your parish by helping them to see a more pastoral way of dealing with folks like you. You can contact your diocesan office for support, and you can also call around to a few other parishes to see if one of them is better at making the distinction between baptized and unbaptized candidates. Next time you meet with the leaders of your parish, you can gently suggest they look at the National Statutes for the Catechumenate, paragraph 30 (it's an appendix in the back of the RCIA ritual book):
"Those who have already been baptized in another Church or ecclesial community should not be treated as catechumens or so designated. Their doctrinal and spiritual preparation for reception into full Catholic communion should be determined according to the individual case, that is, it should depend on the extent to which the baptized person has led a Christian life within a community of faith...."
Nick
TeamRCIA.com
____________________
Start and sustain the catechumenate
Whether you’re a seasoned veteran or just starting out, Team RCIA (TeamRCIA.com) can make you an RCIA Superhero!
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 04:32 pm |
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TeamRCIA wrote: Nick
TeamRCIA.com
Hi, Nick, welcome to the forum. Tell us a little about yourself and your ministry. (In another thread, of course!)
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 269 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 08:26 pm |
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I would add this: even though we Protestants often know Bible verses better than the RCIA directors, and even though we've studied theology extensively in classes and schools during our Protestant years, we still most likely have a Protestant mindset, and not a Catholic mindset. One good reason to go through RCIA classes is to spend some time cultivating the Catholic mindset, which includes both/and views of difficult Bible passages, rather than either/or. I recently read a number of Martin Luther's letters which the editor said were the less polemical ones, and I was struck at his either/or way of thinking, and could see how it might have contributed to his frustration and subsequent rebellion. If you can decide to both freely give of your gifts (such as knowing the Bible) while in class, and at the same time soak up as much Catholic culture as you can, the classes (once you are able to go to them) will seem worthwhile. (Did you notice the both/and in the last sentence? )
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1869 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 09:55 pm |
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| It is possible in some cases to be received into the Church without going through the normal RCIA procedure, if someone will vouch for you, that you have sufficient knowledge. I know, because that is how I was received myself. I couldn't tell you how often this happens, but if you have any personal connections to a priest, you could ask him if it would be possible in your case. If you don't know any priests, you can still try to see if it is possible by contacting your diocese. You have nothing to lose! Last edited on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 09:56 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 11:46 pm |
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Free wrote: I would add this: even though we Protestants often know Bible verses better than the RCIA directors, and even though we've studied theology extensively in classes and schools during our Protestant years, we still most likely have a Protestant mindset, and not a Catholic mindset. One good reason to go through RCIA classes is to spend some time cultivating the Catholic mindset, which includes both/and views of difficult Bible passages, rather than either/or. I recently read a number of Martin Luther's letters which the editor said were the less polemical ones, and I was struck at his either/or way of thinking, and could see how it might have contributed to his frustration and subsequent rebellion. If you can decide to both freely give of your gifts (such as knowing the Bible) while in class, and at the same time soak up as much Catholic culture as you can, the classes (once you are able to go to them) will seem worthwhile. (Did you notice the both/and in the last sentence?)
I quoted your entire message because I thought it was worth repeating! You're absolutely right. Most Protestant converts have no idea just how much of a "cultural" difference there is between the Catholic and Protestant mindset. Most can quote chapter and verse of scripture much better than a typical Catholic, but they have not yet learned to "think Catholic" and failing that, too quick a reception into the Church will result in a quick reversion back to their original mindset, and a return to their prior faith.
I know how frustrating it can be to wait, but it really can never take too long. We are pursuing Truth and Eternity, and if it takes a few extra months or even years, so be it. It will happen in God's time.
But then again, as a cradle Catholic, I can't say I've been there. Those who have previously been baptized technically do not need to go through RCIA; they should be individually catechized and welcomed into the Church. That's just not possible in most parishes, and my experience has been that they have been wonderful witnesses to the faith to those who have been previously unchurched.
The best RCIA years I ever experienced where those where "bible Christians" were part of the program. And after they join the Church, they can be a real blessing if they become part of the RCIA program, and maybe even catechists who can help provide individual guidance for other Protestants on the journey home.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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steve
Administrator
| Joined: | Thu Sep 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | Zanesville, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 12 |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 04:28 am |
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My wife attended RCIA while being a night shift nurse. It became almost impossible to attend at times. She was excused of any time missed without a problem. She was previously Baptist. The parish insisted that RCIA was manditory for anyone coming in. She was very frustrated by this at the time as well. It seems to me that the idea that you make an attempt to go to these classes also shows that you really want to join the Church. If it were all easy then some people might not think about this choice as carefully, just like in the case of marriage. I know from a past experience that sometimes a forced decernment period can help ease alot of future issues. I will keep you in my prayers. God always straightens our paths if we let him.
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Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 12:23 am |
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I accompanied my husband, a baptized Baptist, to RCIA. Neither of us was aware of this definition of who is supposed to go, depending on their background. Certainly, I didn't "need" it as I was already a practicing Catholic. I went happily because I knew I would learn something - there is SO much to learn that going to RCIA is rarely a waste of time. Also, after each session, my husband could freely ask me for clarification on things. Or if he didn't catch certain innuendos of the Faith from that session, I would offer extra explanations.
In our experience, this is the method that new Catholics [whether reverts or completely new] become familiar with the Faith. The parishes around here are humongous and it would be close to impossible for new Catholics to get adequate one-on-one training. My husband's class was over 30 people. Clarence Thomas was in this new group. He did not attend the classes probably because of distance to this parish in the 'burbs and other commitments. So in rare cases, one-on-one is offered. But around here - the norm is that everybody goes.
Another route in some parishes here is one-on-one preparation by members of the Legion of Mary. These lay volunteers will prepare new Catholics at the request of priests in special situations such as for shut-ins or children.
You don't know what you don’t know, so I hope you will see the value of attending RCIA. I pray that you find a reasonable schedule that can accommodate you. God Bless you in your efforts!
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
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TeamRCIA
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 21st, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 2 |
| First Name: | Nick | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 03:41 pm |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote:The parishes around here are humongous and it would be close to impossible for new Catholics to get adequate one-on-one training. My husband's class was over 30 people.
Hi All. I just want to step in to suggest a broader way of thinking about the process of becoming Catholic. It helps me when I keep in mind the RCIA is not a course of instruction. It is a rite, a sacrament. As with any sacrament, there is a preparation process associated with it.
Think of the marriage rite, for example. In an ideal formation process, the engaged couples would be learning how to live out a Catholic marriage. There would be some classes on doctrine, but mostly the process would be focused on lifestyle issues. Many parishes have a combination of group formation and one on one (or couple to couple) formation. The larger the parish, the more volunteers that are needed. And, the larger the parish, the larger the potential pool of volunteers.
So then, let's look at becoming Catholic through that lens. The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults is a sacrament for becoming Christian. It is not a sacrament for the already baptized. Obviously, the lifestyle formation process needs to be more extensive for those who have never lived as Christians. The primary place of formation is the Sunday liturgy, and the rite requires that unbaptized folks participate in at least one full liturgical year of Sundays before we can even think of celebrating the initiation sacraments with them.
Those who are already baptized and who have lived as Christians are a completely different case. The rite they would celebrate is not the Rite of Christian Initiation. It is the Reception of Baptized Christians into Full Communion. Other Christians are already in communion with Roman Catholics, but it is an imperfect communion. Those who wish to, would be received into full communion. But they would not be "initiated." It is possible and it is desirable to create a formation process that is more suited to their needs. This doesn't have to be a one on one formation process. It can be a group process with its own team of catechists. It will take a few more volunteers, but probably fewer than the marriage preparation process does. And the already baptized can learn about Catholic culture and Catholic doctrine with fellow Christians who know their way around the Bible. And, unlike the catechumens, the already baptized are not required to be in the process for a full liturgical year. The actual length of the process would be geared to each person, just as the engagement period is in the marriage rite. Some folks need a longer process, some need a shorter one.
(See RCIA 473-477.)
Nick
TeamRCIA.com
____________________
Start and sustain the catechumenate
Whether you’re a seasoned veteran or just starting out, Team RCIA (TeamRCIA.com) can make you an RCIA Superhero!
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Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 05:51 pm |
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Exclusively priests teach most of the RCIA sessions around here. Volunteers and laypersons may assist in special cases - and certainly, the laity can provide all sorts of needs. The best-case scenario is teaching from a priest. The three parish priests led my husband’s sessions on a rotating basis. In another nearby parish, the new Catholics are expected to continue classes even after Easter. The amount of information that this wonderful, erudite priest offers is staggering.
The office of priest offers a special grace that a layperson does not have. The effects of the words from a priest have more power and grace because of the ordained office a priest holds. The words of a priest therefore have more power and efficacy to change the hearer's lifestyle or for conversion.
I understand that RCIA is supposed to be about igniting the Faith and initiating a change in the soul of the new Catholic and culminates in receiving the Sacraments. If a priest teaches facts about Church history, apologetics, practices and various truths, the power of his words [even with his personality or defects] would not only carry the weight of the teaching, but also the fire of conversion and open 'doors' within the hearer that might not occur otherwise. Instruction and conversion are intertwined.
I'm no expert on the purpose of today's RCIA program. I do know that things have changed somewhat since the 50s. For instance, my father, a baptized Congregationalist, was conditionally baptized when he converted. My 88-year-old mother remembers that everyone was conditionally baptized and instructed in the Faith no matter what their background, Episcopalian or Atheist. The thinking was that if the Catholic Church wasn't involved in the baptism, then they couldn't be certain of the intent of the baptizer. When this distinction wasn't made regarding good baptism/bad baptism/familiarity with Christianity, then all were treated pretty much the same. There was more personalized one-on-one instruction too. I'm not going to guess at which approach is better.
Consider the Jesuit martyrs of North America. They taught about God, the love of God, the need for prayer as well as Catholic practices and apologetics. Additionally, the Jesuits exhorted the Indians to new ‘lifestyle’ changes. Laymen were not sent to convert - clergy and religious were sent to convert. When they taught Truth, the conversion created a change of heart and lifestyle.
So if I had the choice for one-on-one with a layman or a cattle-call group taught by a priest, I'd choose the priest. But not everyone has this choice! Today's dearth of available religious has an impact.
[We forget that the devil hates the priest almost more than anything. Much of this hatred has to do with the intrinsic power of the priest's office and the effect a priest, by merely being seen or heard, has on souls.]
Becoming Catholic and being a Catholic demands daily conversion of heart for all of us. This never-ending conversion depends on us, ourselves. No RCIA program or conversion succeeds without our active cooperation. The most important thing is to strive personally to pray and learn.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
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