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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 390 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 02:40 pm |
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Hi all-
May your day be abundantly blessed by the Almighty Father!
I am wondering....
I read a book long ago, that stated the reason for the orthodox split over the creed including that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and it was explained like this.
Paraphrase - If the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, that would make the Father and Son equal as creators (as opposed to the Father being the single creator of the Son), and the triangle symbol used for the Trinity would be an upside down shape, showing the Father and Son at top, with the Spirit being the point at the bottom (and lower than the two).
Like most of faith matters, that makes perfect sense on the surface of things. Can anyone explain why we do not mean this, and how this belief does not equal this image?
Thanks!
Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 552 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 03:33 pm |
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Hey Laura,
I don't have time right now, but maybe this will help.
THE GREEK AND LATIN TRADITIONS REGARDING THE PROCESSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Pontificial Council for Promoting Christian Unity
ok, dummy me  If you click on the title above it opens the paper.
Last edited on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 09:21 pm by Pani Rose
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 03:56 pm |
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One of the best documents I've seen is this Statement of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation on the Filoque.
I think (my opinion only) the matter of the Filoque has essentially been settled theologically, although there are still some hard feelings regarding the issue. Pope John Paul II authorized the recitation of the Creed without the Filoque for the Eastern Catholic Churches, essentially granting that the interpretations of the phrase in the east and west are different but not contradictory. In the east, the emphasis is on the unique creative aspect of the Father (which the west acknowledges), while in the west, it is on the divinity of the Son (which the east acknowledges).
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 05:54 pm |
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Pope John Paul II authorized the recitation of the Creed without the Filoque for the Eastern Catholic Churches, essentially granting that the interpretations of the phrase in the east and west are different but not contradictory.
This was actually granted much earlier, at the time of their reunion — for example, at the treaty of Brest. The privilege therefore goes back as far as several centuries, depending on when the different groups reunited. However, Rick is correct in the sense that JPII did reaffirm it.
David
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
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| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 09:17 pm |
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This is the fourth time today I am trying to add to this 
Anyway, the east sees the Trinity as a circle, not a triangle. When we call upon one of them, they all receive the call, and we enter into the circle.
"Three: he who loves, he who is loved, the Love"
Saint Augustine
Here is a good interactive on Rublev's icon of the Trinity
http://www.wellsprings.org.uk/rublevs_icon/rublev.htm
Notice the front is empty - we are there,
we enter into the circle of the Triune God.
(as a side note the same is understood in the East in regards to the icon of the Last Supper - the front of the table is empty - because we are there)
Then several good explantions of it are linked below.
As we say in the East, when we gaze upon and Icon, heaven gazes back through their eyes. Hence the expression 'windows into heaven'.
http://www.rndm.org/trinity.htm
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/pope/10GPen/14/14GPar04.html
Last edited on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 09:25 pm by Pani Rose
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Pani Rose
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| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 03:17 pm |
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An additional link on the Trinity icon thought you might find helpful.
...But perhaps the most important thought Rublev wanted to convey when he painted his great icon was the thought about the necessity and goodness of love, a bond based on the trust between individuals. The old texts about Trinity as three hypostases of the Divinity talk about love which fills the Trinity: "Trinity is love," "The Son loves His Father, the Father loves His Son," "The Love of the Heavenly Father Is Given to the World through His Son ." Since the theological ideas were understandable only to a few, something else must have made the icon attractive for a wider spectrum of viewers and believers. Obviously, the content of the Trinity is not restricted to the theological ideas. Rublev's Trinity is not only a representation of the three hypostases of God and the symbol of the Eucharist, but it is also an all-encompassing symbol of unity and an image of divine love. ...
http://www.rollins.edu/Foreign_Lang/Russian/trinity.html
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:43 pm |
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Laura, this subject does trouble me at times as well, as I lean to the East myself (though as a Catholic). I am still very confused by the issue, but some points that hsve helped me are" That the West still affirms that the Father is the unique source or cause of the Holy Spirit. So the Spirit does proceed in the sense it was originally intended to mean from the Father. The Father is the unique cause per se. This is in agreement with the East.
But while the only scriptural reference that uses the word proceeds in regard to the Spirit does say that He proceeds from the Father, the very text seems to say that Jesus is the one that is sending Him or has authority to send Him. In this sense the Spirit does proceed from the Son as well as the Son sends Him, though perhaps His unique principle or cause would be the Father. But it is also said that where One person is so are the other Two. That they perfectly share everything. A Bible verse would probably explain that everything the Father has has been given to the Son to share. Therefore, the Spirit is of the Father and the Son is of the Father and all the Father has the Son has, therefore the Son also has the Spirit or the ability to Send or work with the Spirit.
These ponts have helped me. Whike i agree with Rick that essentially the doctrine can be worked through between East and West it is still a difficult issue regarding our reunion and the fact that we have declared our statement as being dogmatic makes it a little more difficult than us just changing our views. We need to perhaps as Rick said change the way it is understood, but the Orthodox may have to accept this as well as we can not change our doctrine now, and there are still many many Orthodox who do not agree with our affirmation or attempts to explain it. We must pray for unity in this year of St. Paul.
By the way you mentioned something of the son being a creation of the Father? Or you mentioned this in a parentheses, not sure if you were attributing it to anything, but the creed affirms the son as begotten not made. So I do not think that the Son was created by the Father. This confuses me to as it sems imposssible to imagine a Son who is eternal as Fatherhood as we know it proceeds Sonship. Anyway, that is all an aside, and I have heard it said by some saint (maybe Augustine) not to try too hard to understand the Trinty or we may go mad!
Brian
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1665 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 05:02 pm |
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I have posted on my site a paper written by a friend, who is an Eastern Catholic. It's very heavy reading (the topic could hardly not be, by nature), but it shows again and again how East and West (especially in the patristic period, before the schism) really do agree in the main, and are not that far apart:
A Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue on the Filioque (William Klimon)
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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