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jacki
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| Location: | Essex, England, United Kingdom |
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| First Name: | jacki | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | baptised in the church of england (I am a brit) ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 11:06 pm |
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I dont. BBC Rado 4 this morning there was a discussion about Cardinal John Henry Newman. Apparently he is to be disintered and reburied as part of the beatification process. I understand all that although I think its a bit gruesome for most commuters to listen to at 6.30 am. But the chap who was explaining all this to the presenter said it was hoped that the Holy Father would make him a saint and a Doctor of the Church. Whats a docor of the Church please?
Also would one of you my kindly American cousins please give Gene the gay bishop a ring and tell him he is needed at home ? I'm sick of watching him spouting his bile on our news chanels over here. Thanks.
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jacki
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| Location: | Essex, England, United Kingdom |
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| First Name: | jacki | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | baptised in the church of england (I am a brit) ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 11:07 pm |
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| scuse spelling its late
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sewnsew
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| Location: | Arizona USA |
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| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 11:36 pm |
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Keep him pretty please
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 12:05 am |
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From Webster’s Online Dictionary:
A Doctor of the Church is a theologian from whose writings the whole Christian church is held to have derived great advantage, and to whom eminent learning and great sanctity have been attributed by a proclamation of the Pope or of an ecumenical council (although no ecumenical council has ever exercised its prerogative of proclaiming anyone a doctor of the church).
The Catholic Church lists [so far] the following thirty–three Doctors of the Church; date of promotion to Doctor is listed, if available:
• St. Gregory the Great
• St. Ambrose
• St. Augustine [of Hippo]
• St. Jerome
• St. John Chrysostom
• St. Basil
• St. Gregory Nazianzus
• St. Athanasius
• St. Thomas Aquinas – 1568
• St. Bonaventure – 1588
• St. Anselm – 1720
• St. Isidore – 1722
• St. Peter Chrysologus – 1729
• St. Leo the Great – 1754
• St. Peter Damian – 1828
• St. Bernard [of Clairvaux] – 1830
• St. Hilary of Poitiers – 1851
• St. Alphonsus Liguori – 1871
• St. Francis de Sales – 1877
• St. Cyril of Alexandria – 1883
• St. Cyril of Jerusalem – 1883
• St. John Damascene – 1883
• The Venerable Bede [St. Bede] – 1899
• St. Ephraem [of Syria] – 1920
• St. Peter Canisius – 1925
• St. John of the Cross – 1926
• St. Robert Bellarmine – 1931
• St. Albertus Magnus – 1931
• St. Anthony of Padua – 1946
• St. Lawrence of Brindisi – 1959
• St. Teresa of Avila – 1970
• St. Catherine of Siena – 1970
• St. Therese of Lisieux – 1997
(I’ve added the explanatory words in brackets.)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 12:17 am |
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Regarding disinterment (also called exhumation): This is a necessary part of the canonization process whose purpose is to identify that the person buried there is in fact the person identified in the process and in the testimonies of witnesses. They want to make sure that everyone is talking about the same person.
David
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mrsbmoo
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| Location: | Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 01:23 am |
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| If the person buried there was buried many many years ago, who would be around that would recognize them? or would you even be able to recognize them from a picture? I don't quite get the signifigance of the disinterment.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 01:44 am |
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Even bones and teeth can tell a story, Becky. Plus items buried with the deceased. Furthermore, sometimes disinterment reveals an incorrupt body. While that phenomenon is not taken into account during the canonization process, it usually makes identification easier.
David
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 05:33 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: Even bones and teeth can tell a story, Becky. Plus items buried with the deceased. Furthermore, sometimes disinterment reveals an incorrupt body. While that phenomenon is not taken into account during the canonization process, it usually makes identification easier.
David A friend in Canada, said they just moved their first bishop because of the order of sisters where he was burried was getting a new cemetary. They found his body to be incorrupt.
Last edited on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 05:34 am by Pani Rose
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jacki
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| Location: | Essex, England, United Kingdom |
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| First Name: | jacki | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | baptised in the church of england (I am a brit) ... |
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 10:40 am |
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| I understood that, the explanation that as he was buried with a friend and the process that would take place was a bit too much for that time of the morning though. I could tell the chap opposite me on the train was listening to the same thing as he slowly went green - lol
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JasPax
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 11:36 am |
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jacki wrote: I understood that, the explanation that as he was buried with a friend and the process that would take place was a bit too much for that time of the morning though. I could tell the chap opposite me on the train was listening to the same thing as he slowly went green - lol
I don't know if they go to this much trouble or not, but if the Cardinal had brothers or close male cousins, the male descendants of those men would match any Y chromosome DNA taken from the exhumed body.
Regards,
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Robert
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 12:10 pm |
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As far as I'm informed, the coffins of Bishops and Cardinals have seals on them. They also contain various identifying documents. DNA testing should not be needed at all to varify who is in the crypt/coffin.
It is also standard proceedure in cases like this to check the condition of the remains e.g. whether corrupted or not.
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 02:55 pm |
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Keep in mind that procedures were developed in a time before photographs and DNA were available. Bishops are frequently buried with the symbols of their office, such as the ring, mitre, pallium, etc., so even if the body is corrupt, there will be recognizable items within the coffin that will allow verification of identity. Should the person be declared a saint, the body will ultimately be interred in a place of honor, and some of the remains may be taken as relics.
While it may seem rather ridiculous to some, the fact is that in much of the Church's history there has been abuses of various kinds regarding remains and relics, so the procedures have been developed (as best they could with the technology of the times) to protect the integrity of the process.
It may seem like overkill, but in fact actual wars have been fought over the possession of the relics of some saints, and even today there is doubt about the location of the remains of some of our faith heroes, with multiple cities claiming them.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mrsbmoo
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| Location: | Virginia USA |
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 05:45 pm |
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I find the importance of the physical body a hard cultural/dogmatic hurdle to overcome. I even took a video course on the theology of the body. It is so foreign to me that we are equally physical and spiritual when I was always taught that our bodies were just currupt fleshy containers our souls were in and that at death we discarded them and received new improved ones in Heaven. I guess it is one of those things where I just have to say to the church, I trust you know what you are talking about.
So if incorruption is important, how do they decide it was due to miraculous circumstances instead of some natural condition?
Do you have a link to the description of the process of separating the fellow from his friend? I have a strong stomach.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 06:02 pm |
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So if incorruption is important, how do they decide it was due to miraculous circumstances instead of some natural condition?
As stated above, incorruption is not a consideration during the canonization process. It is only a matter of devotion.
If the history of the post-mortem process and interment is known, it can be correlated with what is found in the exhumation, and scientific tests can often determine whether incorruption was possible through natural causes.
Suggested reading: The Incorruptibles, by Joan Carroll Cruz.
David
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jacki
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 06:55 pm |
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erm dont have a link but it may be on the bbc web site it has a 'listen again' facility. Not everything goes on there though try http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4
he is being moved to a sarcophogus (?) in a cathedral
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