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JillD
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Posted: Sat Jul 12th, 2008 08:05 pm |
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I don't really understand how the bishops can reject the Vatican like this; but then I'm a newbie at being Catholic. Can someone explain this??
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/religion/chi-bishopsreject-story,0,3221036.story
The article begins:WASHINGTON - The nation's Catholic bishops have rejected a new translation of Mass prayers, a rare instance of U.S. prelates denying a Vatican-ordered liturgical change.
While ballots are still coming in, it's clear they won't add up to the 166 needed to pass the new translation, said Sister Mary Ann Walsh, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. A two-thirds majority of the USCCB's Latin rite bishops is required for approval.
Walsh said she could not recall another instance in which the U.S. bishops have rejected a full document of Vatican translations, though they have at times tinkered with individual phrases and words.
At the bishops' semi-annual meeting in June, several prelates said the newly translated prayers, traditionally spoken by priests at Mass, were stilted and incomprehensible. One called them a "linguistic swamp."
Last edited on Sat Jul 12th, 2008 08:08 pm by JillD
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jul 12th, 2008 09:09 pm |
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Jill, let me set up some background.
The United States Council of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) is the national council of bishops for the United States. A separate entity, the International Committee on English in the Liturgy (ICEL), has the charge of most of the English-speaking national conferences of bishops to produce proper translations of the original Latin Mass texts for use in their jurisdictions. The bishops deal with ICEL through internal committees until a text is deemed viable. The text is then brought to a vote of the membership. If the text is passed by a two-thirds vote of the bishops, it then goes to the Vatican for further scrutiny. If the Vatican approves the text, it is incorporated into the next promulgation of the English-language version of the Mass. If the Vatican does not approve the text, it is sent back to the bishops with specific criticisms, the bishops then take it back to ICEL for revision, and the cycle begins again.
The news article you cite is reporting that the bishops have failed to pass a text proposed by their committee on liturgy. It therefore goes back to committee to be revised.
Therefore, your assumption that the American bishops are defying the Vatican is incorrect. They are simply following procedure.
This glitch in the passing of texts was somewhat expected, given that there is considerable division among the bishops as to what constitutes an acceptable text. It means that the establishment of a definitive text will take more time, but it will not in itself derail the process.
Note that the texts in question here are the seasonal prayers that occur in various places throughout the Mass, such as the Opening Prayer (Collect), the Offertory Prayer and the Prayer After Communion (Postcommunion). The text for the Ordinary of the Mass (the unchangeable parts, such as the Gloria, the Credo and the Eucharistic Prayers) was passed earlier and is awaiting approval by the Vatican.
David
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JillD
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Posted: Sat Jul 12th, 2008 10:19 pm |
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Thank you, David. This sounds very reasonable. Why, then, are there headlines about it? Is it just because it "sounds" like the USCCB is defying the Vatican? (A non-Catholic friend made me aware of the article and I told him I'd ask and see what it was about.)
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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jacki
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Posted: Sat Jul 12th, 2008 10:40 pm |
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| so who decides all this here in good old blighty?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 12:47 am |
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JillD wrote:
Why, then, are there headlines about it? Is it just because it "sounds" like the USCCB is defying the Vatican? (A non-Catholic friend made me aware of the article and I told him I'd ask and see what it was about.)
Consider the source: a secular newspaper. The author of the story probably knows less about the inner workings of the Catholic Church than you do.
jacki wrote:So who decides all this here in good old blighty?
You have your own national council of bishops, Jacki, and they go through a similar process.
David
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 01:21 pm |
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Jill, what specifics are you seeing in these reports or are you just hearing about this from friends?
David, I don't know what percentage it takes in these meetings to withhold approval - do you have any idea? So I mean, can just a few bishops hold this up?
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 04:13 pm |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote:
David, I don't know what percentage it takes in these meetings to withhold approval - do you have any idea? So I mean, can just a few bishops hold this up?
The vote on liturgical texts requires a two thirds majority to pass. It’s in the middle of the first paragraph of my first post above. And mathematically, all close votes are decided by a relatively small differential. That’s why, as the saying goes, every voter is important.
David
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 06:25 pm |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote: Jill, what specifics are you seeing in these reports or are you just hearing about this from friends?
All I knew was what was in the news article which my friend sent me. Now that David has explained that it's just a typical procedural event, I see now that the secular news source was trying to make a big thing out of nothing.
As they say, "Consider the source."
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 06:50 pm |
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JillD wrote: Tina in Ashburn wrote: Jill, what specifics are you seeing in these reports or are you just hearing about this from friends?
All I knew was what was in the news article which my friend sent me. Now that David has explained that it's just a typical procedural event, I see now that the secular news source was trying to make a big thing out of nothing.
As they say, "Consider the source."
You will be seeing more. There are twelve separate items which require approval of the Bishop's Conferences of the various English-speaking countries, and subsequent Vatican approval, before the revised translation can be issued. Two of the twelve have been approved, the others are pending.
ICEL (the International Committee on English in the Liturgy) must consider the common meaning of each word in each country. For example, a word that might be acceptable in the United States might carry a different meaning in the slang of another country. As a living language, words take on different connotations in different parts of the world.
The objective is to provide a single translation that is acceptable for all of the countries; that's not easy to accomplish. It requires a lengthy, give-and-take process between ICEL, the various bishop's conferences, and the Vatican, before final approval can be granted. ICEL anticipates that the final draft of the entire mass, including the liturgy and orations, will be submitted to the Vatican for final approval in 2010, and implemented in 2011 or 2012.
ICEL is expected to submit another draft to the various bishop's conferences in November. If it is approved by a two-thirds majority of all of the conferences, it will then be submitted to the Vatican for their approval. They will likely suggest modifications, which will then go back to ICEL and to the individual conferences, and then be submitted again to the Vatican. That happens for each of the 12 separate sections.
The twelve countries that are part of ICEL are Australia, Canada, England and Wales, India, Ireland, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Scotland, South Africa and the United States of America.
So, in other words, the rejection by the bishops was an expected part of the process. It's really no big deal. The parts that have been approved were also kicked around for several years before gaining final approval.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 06:59 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: The twelve countries that are part of ICEL are Australia, Canada, England and Wales, India, Ireland, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Scotland, South Africa and the United States of America. Forgive my ignorance, but why would Pakistan and the Philippines be on a committee to decide on the English rendering??
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 07:12 pm |
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JillD wrote: CajunRick wrote: The twelve countries that are part of ICEL are Australia, Canada, England and Wales, India, Ireland, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Scotland, South Africa and the United States of America. Forgive my ignorance, but why would Pakistan and the Philippines be on a committee to decide on the English rendering??
I'm not an expert, but I assume it's because the Latin Rite in those countries is normally conducted in English.
We had a priest from the Philippines at our parish this weekend giving a mission talk, and he conducts the liturgy in English in his home parish. He concelebrated with our pastor, and knew the mass from memory.
Filipinos tend to be multi-lingual, and many of the languages are tribal in nature, if I'm not mistaken. The official languages, according to the CIA World Factbook, are Filipino (a variant of Tagalog) and English. Just over 80% of the population is Catholic.
In Pakistan, according to the same source, the official languages are Urdu and English.
In many countries in Africa and Asia, English provides a common denominator among people of various ethnic groups who are unwilling to accept the language of another ethnic group.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 07:18 pm |
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That is really interesting! Whodathunkit?
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 08:49 pm |
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David,
"It’s in the middle of the first paragraph of my first post above."
Not that I was speed reading or anything...javascript:emoticon(' ',%20'images/emoticons/new/Ali/bag.gif')
Ooops, thanks.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 08:52 pm |
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There are rumblings that the Pope is considering the Canon to be said in Latin. Guess that solves the vernacular dilemma!
We'll see though.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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