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Talithacumi
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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Hey, folks!
On another thread Karli (January Tuesday) mentioned something about the question of altar girls and female priests. I thought it was a topic worthy of a new thread, so I thought I'd start one.
Anyhoo... Seems that there's a question about why women can't be priests, and that some people have a problem with altar girls. Personally (and I mean personally), I'm one of those people. If I had girls, I wouldn't encourage them to be altar girls - for a couple of reasons. One, I think that allowing girls to be servers on the altar has sort of contributed to the whole problem of unisex roles. I personally think that it sort of de-masculinates (is that a word?) the boys. It used to be something special that the boys could do; something where they could emulate the priest and follow in his footsteps, and they could bond with him because serving on the altar was an all-male thing. Now the girls have sort of horned in on their territory where they don't really belong Just MY opinion and not incumbent on everyone else to think that way...
Along with that, I seem to remember from somewhere in my Catholic education over the years that the role of an altar server was sort of an apprenticeship for the priesthood - a sort of practice run or internship, in a way, that would get them used to being on the altar and serving the Lord from that forum. And with girls on the altar serving, it begs the question, "Hey, why can't we become priests?"
I think in the other thread it was mentioned that Jesus chose twelve men as his first priests and that's why we don't have women. Well, that's only part of it. I think if one understood the role of women and men - read "Theology of the Body" by Pope John Paul II and you might get an idea - a person might have a better understanding of the whole question.
Let's think marriage. Remember in Ephesians 5 how St. Paul said something to the effect that "This is a great foreshadowing. I mean that this refers to Christ and the Church." If we understand that Jesus is the Bridegroom and His Church is the Bride, and that a priest's role is to be in persona Christi, or "in the person of Christ," then maybe one can see how, if a priest is "another Christ," then he must be a male as Jesus was, considering Jesus, as a Bridegroom, must have that certain "male" role, while the Church, the Bride that He loves, plays the "female" role. Therefore, as the Groom (Jesus and, as representatives, his priests) gives of himself in service to the Bride, then the Bride, in the female role, receives and in that reception, returns that loving service to her Groom.
I may not be making any sense, but in short, a priest is supposed to take on the role of Jesus, Who, as the Bridegroom, is necessarily male. A female cannot be a priest. It doesn't quite fit in with God's plan for the Church.
There are probably people who can explain it better, but that's how I understnad it, in a nutshell.
JMJ
- Cheri
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january tuesday
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 07:12 pm |
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okay, yes that is more of the answer that I was looking for. it makes more sense to me that because the priest is acting as Christ, and because of the Church is the bridegroom, it is theologically confusing for a woman to be a priest. it still, i guess, seems unfortunate to me that a woman who wishes to be a priest cannot, but I do understand the theological reason why.
i should read the Theology of the Body. i struggle a little with the Church's views on homosexuality as well, and perhaps it will help me to understand why the Church maintains its position a little better.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 08:38 pm |
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| Cheri, IMO you explained it beautifully.
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 03:49 am |
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january tuesday wrote: okay, yes that is more of the answer that I was looking for. it makes more sense to me that because the priest is acting as Christ, and because of the Church is the bridegroom, it is theologically confusing for a woman to be a priest. it still, i guess, seems unfortunate to me that a woman who wishes to be a priest cannot, but I do understand the theological reason why.
i should read the Theology of the Body. i struggle a little with the Church's views on homosexuality as well, and perhaps it will help me to understand why the Church maintains its position a little better.
Here you go, why not listen? ... You can get the 10 CD set for $3.95
...Recorded in August 2002, Naked without Shame, A Crash Course in the Theology of the Body has become the definitive "audio crash course” in John Paul II’s profound theology of the body.
Christopher West teaches the theology of the body at St. John Vianney Seminary in Denver, the Institute for Priestly Formation in Omaha, and at the John Paul II Institute for Marriage and Family in Melbourne, Australia...
http://www.giftfoundation.org/naked_without_shame.htm
Last edited on Mon Jun 30th, 2008 03:52 am by Pani Rose
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 07:27 pm |
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I wrote recently on my blog about the question of altar girls:
On the vexed question of altar girls I am also neutral at present, and desire to look into it further. I could very well come to oppose it with more study, pro and con. It is often viewed suspiciously as a liberal tactic intended to promote the acceptance of female priests (and indeed this was no doubt the plan among some dissidents), but since that possibility has been laid to rest in no uncertain terms by Pope John Paul II, it is arguably a non-issue. Some have argued, beyond that, that having exclusively altar boys leads to a certain "environment" that fosters more priestly vocations. That may be (I don't know).
If a boy feels called to the priesthood, I think he will arrive at that divinely-aided knowledge and resolve for reasons other than the mere fact that he was an altar server, or due to vigorous "recruiting" efforts from his priest, and (conversely) that he would not miss his calling merely] because he served the altar with girls. To argue in this way demeans (in my opinion) the very nature of vocation, which is not nearly that trivial of a thing, in terms of how one ascertains it. Just my opinion, for whatever little it is worth, that carries no authority whatsoever . . .
Last edited on Mon Jun 30th, 2008 07:28 pm by Dave Armstrong
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 09:01 pm |
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Friends whose daughter was an altar server, were upset when the priest said they were to be no more. He continued and told the people, we are praying for vocations. We will provide other ways for our girls to be involved in service to the Church. But, if we want vocations we need to have our boys back up her serving and they are not coming up with the girls here.
Guess what? They now have three vocations to the priesthood within the past year!
Needless to say they are all estatic!
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lia
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:39 am |
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What is an "altar girl"? Is it the same with women being lectors? Or is that a dumb question?
I'm just thinking, is the reason why women want to become priest is because they feel they are being left out in serving God? Then would that mean that the women who serve at our parish, who assists our priests there, being lectors(?) during mass, all they do are for nothing? That God doesn't recognize their service to Him?
I think this idea of women wanting to be priests started with the birth of feminism. Do women becoming priest mean they've become equal to men? Is this what women are fighting for? To be equal with men which is why they want to become priests as well?
Can't we accept the beauty of God's design? Men are men and women are women. Men can't be mothers as well as women can't be fathers.
Let us accept that we have roles in our society. It is not our goal to make different what God has ordained.
The essence of living a good life is to live according to God's words.
Let us ask ourselves, will it matter to God that when we finally meet Him, "Would it matter if I've become a priest or not?" It is just a title. Would a bad priest be equal to a good mother? Service to God can be done in soooooo many ways. Why insist on something that cannot be? Why exert so much effort in something that cannot be done when you can do something else which is just as good?
Let us be reminded that whatever our station in life is, in God's eyes, we are all equal.
I just don't understand this issue. It's like women are fight for women priests because they believe that women are second class citizen to God or something....
I, for one, have never thought of myself as "second" to any man, in worth and dignity 
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 10:57 am |
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lia wrote:I think this idea of women wanting to be priests started with the birth of feminism.
And I think you are right. Yes, and I also believe that the idea of having girls as acolytes was conceived from the same mindset. I can only repeat the words of Christ when he spoke of the interrelationship of men and women: “From the beginning it was not so” (Matthew 19:8).
I think you explain the dignity of women very well, Lia. Women have a special, feminine relationship with God that a man cannot have. This is perhaps the reason why men are given the priesthood — in compensation for this natural difference. It certainly explains why women are naturally more religious than men.
David
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january tuesday
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:16 pm |
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I think you are right that the roles women play in mass are no less honorable than the role of a priest. But I think you've over-generalized the motives women have in wanting to become priests. I can't speak for every woman, but the nun that I know wanted to be a priest as a little girl, before she knew that she couldn't become one, and it was a disappointment to her to learn that she couldn't when she told her parents she wanted to. I don't think it's about feeling that you can't serve God without being a priest, I think it's about wanting to serve God in that particular way. Wanting to listen and help people at confession, wanting to do the liturgy, transform the Eucharist, give the homily. Just like you would be disappointed if you wanted to serve God by being a mother and then found that you were barren. We need to be more understanding of these women.
I think it's fine that the Church says no to women who want to be priests based on theological reasons, but I don't think it's fair to then say that women who desire to be priests are just trying to push themselves into men's roles.
"Let us accept that we have roles in our society. It is not our goal to make different what God has ordained. " I strongly disagree with this statement because who is to say that our current societal roles are ordained by God? Jesus himself broke societal rules by speaking with the woman at the well, did he not? Aren't we always changing our society to become more like the Kingdom of God?
I understand what you are trying to say, but I just really want to challenge this idea that our current social roles are ordained by God. Did not people think the same thing about slavery? I think we need to be very careful not to perpetuate injustice just because thats "how its always been" and we assume that means God ordained it.
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:28 pm by january tuesday
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 03:54 am |
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january tuesday wrote:"Let us accept that we have roles in our society. It is not our goal to make different what God has ordained." I strongly disagree with this statement because who is to say that our current societal roles are ordained by God? Jesus himself broke societal rules by speaking with the woman at the well, did he not? Aren't we always changing our society to become more like the Kingdom of God?
I understand what you are trying to say, but I just really want to challenge this idea that our current social roles are ordained by God. Did not people think the same thing about slavery? I think we need to be very careful not to perpetuate injustice just because thats "how its always been" and we assume that means God ordained it.
Karli, I think you have the order of things mixed up here. It is not an argument from current role to future role, but from the nature of things to proper role. In other words, we have an obligation to accept our roles as God gave them.
I agree that this can admit of progressive understanding of precisely what roles God gave and how they can and should be fulfilled, but the objective standard is a prerequisite for being a Catholic. Our Catholic moral foundation would collapse if it were not built on the solid rock of objective truth.
What you have proposed here is to substitute subjective opinion and cultural relativism for divine revelation. So when you speak of the need “to be very careful not to perpetuate injustice just because that’s ‘how it’s always been’ and we assume that means God ordained it,” this is just backwards thinking. It is because God ordained things the way they should be that we have an obligation to obey him.
He created everything that is, and gave each thing its nature. He knows our purpose and destiny. This is what our religion is all about. Surely, then, our obedience to the manner of God’s creation is not unreasonable.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 04:43 am |
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Talithacumi wrote:
Hey, folks!
On another thread Karli (January Tuesday) mentioned something about the question of altar girls and female priests. I thought it was a topic worthy of a new thread, so I thought I'd start one.
Anyhoo... Seems that there's a question about why women can't be priests, and that some people have a problem with altar girls. Personally (and I mean personally), I'm one of those people. If I had girls, I wouldn't encourage them to be altar girls - for a couple of reasons. One, I think that allowing girls to be servers on the altar has sort of contributed to the whole problem of unisex roles. I personally think that it sort of de-masculinates (is that a word?) the boys. It used to be something special that the boys could do; something where they could emulate the priest and follow in his footsteps, and they could bond with him because serving on the altar was an all-male thing. Now the girls have sort of horned in on their territory where they don't really belong Just MY opinion and not incumbent on everyone else to think that way...
Along with that, I seem to remember from somewhere in my Catholic education over the years that the role of an altar server was sort of an apprenticeship for the priesthood - a sort of practice run or internship, in a way, that would get them used to being on the altar and serving the Lord from that forum. And with girls on the altar serving, it begs the question, "Hey, why can't we become priests?"
I think in the other thread it was mentioned that Jesus chose twelve men as his first priests and that's why we don't have women. Well, that's only part of it. I think if one understood the role of women and men - read "Theology of the Body" by Pope John Paul II and you might get an idea - a person might have a better understanding of the whole question.
Let's think marriage. Remember in Ephesians 5 how St. Paul said something to the effect that "This is a great foreshadowing. I mean that this refers to Christ and the Church." If we understand that Jesus is the Bridegroom and His Church is the Bride, and that a priest's role is to be in persona Christi, or "in the person of Christ," then maybe one can see how, if a priest is "another Christ," then he must be a male as Jesus was, considering Jesus, as a Bridegroom, must have that certain "male" role, while the Church, the Bride that He loves, plays the "female" role. Therefore, as the Groom (Jesus and, as representatives, his priests) gives of himself in service to the Bride, then the Bride, in the female role, receives and in that reception, returns that loving service to her Groom.
I may not be making any sense, but in short, a priest is supposed to take on the role of Jesus, Who, as the Bridegroom, is necessarily male. A female cannot be a priest. It doesn't quite fit in with God's plan for the Church.
There are probably people who can explain it better, but that's how I understnad it, in a nutshell.
JMJ
- Cheri
Cheri, great job!
In my thirties and forties I used to encourage the notion of having female Baptist deacons. I see things more clearly now.
As a Catholic, I am bothered by the presence of female acolytes. It is especially distressing to see young women used at the Chrism Mass when the bishop presides. Out of the entire diocese there have got to be at least two young men willing to serve at the Chrism Mass.
I have heard some parents make quite a fuss if their daughters are not allowed that honor and that it isn't easy for planners to deny their demands. It's hard not to be distracted by thoughts and feelings on the entire subject when young women (these girls were around sixteen) are used. It's good to know I'm not the only one who would prefer only males were used.
BeckyLast edited on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 04:44 am by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 02:41 pm |
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| I thought differently when I was younger also, and I admit it is easier for me at 61 at accept an all male clergy, and other matters such as no artificial contraception. When I was in my thirties and early forties, I was all for women's rights. Even abortion as a part of women's right to control their bodies. I bought the whole thing about ERA because I had no firm understanding of God's divine plan. Now I have made a complete about face, and wish I had understood earlier. Like you, I find it distracting to watch girls serve as acolytes. It's like watching a girl playing football on the boys team. She may be pretty good, but in the long run she's not going to make the big boys team. It's just not going to happen. She's not equipped, and it puts a different dimension on the team. When Jesus chose his apostles, he chose twelve men after a night of prayer. He was not one who shied away from breaking with tradition, but he chose men. He could have chosen anyone he wanted, even his mother, but he did not. Why is this difficult to accept? It is not an effort to put women down in any way, but it is about recognizing that men have a valuable part to play in the earthly body of Christ, his church. They cannot be replaced, they are irreplaceable. Women have their part to play too, as many of our saints and doctors of the church are women. And the most valuable part to play is that of mother. Mothers of souls for Christ. That cannot be done by men, women are irreplaceable.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 03:09 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote:
It's like watching a girl playing football on the boys team. She may be pretty good, but in the long run she's not going to make the big boys team. It's just not going to happen. She's not equipped, and it puts a different dimension on the team. When Jesus chose his apostles, he chose twelve men after a night of prayer. He was not one who shied away from breaking with tradition, but he chose men. He could have chosen anyone he wanted, even his mother, but he did not. Why is this difficult to accept?
Yes. It's not only distracting, it's also sad and distressing. I become concerned about the messages being sent by the parents of the girls, by the planners who allow older teenage girls (16, 17, 18) to serve at a Chrism Mass. Are the young women being taught that their own future roles are not worthy enough? And as the priest Pani Rose mentioned might say, it seems appropriate for potential priests to have the opportunity to serve at a Chrism Mass.
BeckyLast edited on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 03:11 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 03:39 pm |
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As I've read some of the posts, I kept reflecting on how I've looked at this issue. I've often wondered about why women can't be priests. After all, we have women ministers in our Protestant churches who are quite able to preach and teach the word...some better than most of the men. I welcome them. Even on Catholic radio, I've heard marvelous Bible studies and teaching from women, both nuns and laity.
But, if the Catholic church allowed women to become priests, then I see no reason to cross the Tiber. I cannot see a woman priest occupying the role of Christ. If I understand the catechism correctly, during the Eucharist, the priest becomes Christ to us. The priests acts in the person of Christ to bring the Eucharist sacrifice to the church. This is a sacramental identification with the very person of Christ, who is our eternal high priest, who, as the teaching shows, actually is the author of said sacrifice. Christ is still God and Man. The priest takes upon himself and becomes the visual representation of the Great High Priest who himself, was man. It is a role that is unique and can only be filled by a man.
That doesn't deminish the woman. The woman has her role which is valuable and contributory.
That is my understanding of what the church teaches. Now........am I correct?
Rich
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 04:14 pm |
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| Rich, that is correct. The priest becomes In Persona Christi during the consecration of the Eucharist, and also during confession when he grants absolution to the penitent. He is not doing it on his own, by any power of his own. He is given the ability to stand in for Christ during these times, by the sacrament of Holy Orders, given down through a continuous line of apostolic succession begun when Jesus ordained Peter. It is the bedrock of the Catholic Church, and cannot be changed by anyone except Jesus himself.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:03 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote: As I've read some of the posts, I kept reflecting on how I've looked at this issue. I've often wondered about why women can't be priests. After all, we have women ministers in our Protestant churches who are quite able to preach and teach the word...some better than most of the men. I welcome them. Even on Catholic radio, I've heard marvelous Bible studies and teaching from women, both nuns and laity.
But, if the Catholic church allowed women to become priests, then I see no reason to cross the Tiber. I cannot see a woman priest occupying the role of Christ. If I understand the catechism correctly, during the Eucharist, the priest becomes Christ to us. The priests acts in the person of Christ to bring the Eucharist sacrifice to the church. This is a sacramental identification with the very person of Christ, who is our eternal high priest, who, as the teaching shows, actually is the author of said sacrifice. Christ is still God and Man. The priest takes upon himself and becomes the visual representation of the Great High Priest who himself, was man. It is a role that is unique and can only be filled by a man.
There is no reason why women can't be speakers or writers. There are protestant women as well as catholic who are inspiring and no doubt are inspired by God. But there are more appropriate times and places than during mass for them.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:26 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote:
There is no reason why women can't be speakers or writers.
. . . or seminary professors educating and helping to form future priests.
Becky
Last edited on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 06:38 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:34 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: Credo Catholic wrote:
There is no reason why women can't be speakers or writers.
[size=. . . or seminary professors educating and helping to form future priests.]
I'm in full agreement on this and Marsha's statement
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january tuesday
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 07:03 pm |
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thanks everyone for your input. i think it's something for me to chew on more. I am young, (I'm only 21), and from the sound of it, seems like this is something that makes more sense with age.
i don't feel like the Catholic Church suppresses women in any way. I actually feel like women play a more valuable role in the Church than they do in my Evangelical church growing up. They would have never had a female pastor, and not for any deep theological reason that I know of, but just because it wasn't done. A woman's role mostly revolved around being a support for her husband. Which isn't bad, but it's limiting. Women can do more than just support their husbands.
In the Catholic Church we have so many female role models as saints and teachers, Mary, and nuns with their own ministry rather than just being supporters of their husbands ministry. It seems women are only kept from the priesthood for theological reasons, rather than just a refusal to give women a place.
I tend to lean to the left, and I generally support women's rights, except for abortion, to which I am strongly opposed. I have personally benefited a lot from the women's rights movement, after all I am a girl who is now pursuing a doctorate in a scientific field. So it is natural for me to feel that women should not be kept from any role simply because they are women.
This has all actually gotten me thinking a lot, about the way I understand gender roles. I've actually been just sitting here reflecting on some of the things in my life that have shaped the way I feel about being a woman. I think certain times that I have been mistreated have led me to disdain some things about being feminine. I think I'm going to order Theology of the Body soon and read it. I think it will be really good for me.
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"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1238 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 07:52 pm |
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january tuesday wrote:
thanks everyone for your input. i think it's something for me to chew on more. I am young, (I'm only 21), and from the sound of it, seems like this is something that makes more sense with age.
. . . Women can do more than just support their husbands.
This has all actually gotten me thinking a lot, about the way I understand gender roles. I've actually been just sitting here reflecting on some of the things in my life that have shaped the way I feel about being a woman. I think certain times that I have been mistreated have led me to disdain some things about being feminine. or me.
Ah, Karli, what fun to look at life through your eyes every now and then--I enjoy reading your posts.
I was fortunate enough to have many leadership opportunities and a satisfying career. When I review my life, though, apart from the strictly spiritual realm, my deepest (right down to the marrow) joy came from responding, as a woman, to my husband and, as a mother, to my child.
Now a retired widow, I do not find myself longing for one more promotion, one more professional moment of glory, or one more exciting adventure. Instead, I long for opportunities to give joy, help, and comfort to the ones I love.
I was a tomboy, never a frills, ruffles, and lace kind of girl. But, oh, Karli, the joys of femininity. Don't let the world rob you of those.
BeckyLast edited on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 07:53 pm by Intercessor
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"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 02:41 am |
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Karli, if you have a typical life, you will change your mind on things about fifty times! You are young and yes, of course you are looking at life through young eyes. And it is good to ask questions and help remind the rest of us why things are the way they are.
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lia
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Quezon City, Philippines |
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| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 03:36 am |
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"I can't speak for every woman, but the nun that I know wanted to be a priest as a little girl, before she knew that she couldn't become one, and it was a disappointment to her to learn that she couldn't when she told her parents she wanted to. I don't think it's about feeling that you can't serve God without being a priest, I think it's about wanting to serve God in that particular way. Wanting to listen and help people at confession, wanting to do the liturgy, transform the Eucharist, give the homily."
I can understand wanting to become a priest for the purpose of, you know, "doing what only priests can do"... and that is just the point... for WHAT PURPOSE is this "WANTING"? If doing what priests can do ELEVATES us more as human beings, then I too would be in that boat of "WANTING TO BECOME A PRIEST". But there is NONE. Men being able to do priestly things is the same as for women being able to bear new life. Any men there who wants to deliver babies from their wombs?  Well, maybe some would "wish" this...but there you go...men just can't. It is the special gift God gave women. (Er...of course barring the fact that there's pain involve...Although I've never heard a mom says she regret having her babies even with all those pain she had to go through.)
""Let us accept that we have roles in our society. It is not our goal to make different what God has ordained. " I strongly disagree with this statement because who is to say that our current societal roles are ordained by God? Jesus himself broke societal rules by speaking with the woman at the well, did he not? Aren't we always changing our society to become more like the Kingdom of G | | |
