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january tuesday
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| Joined: | Fri Apr 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Minneapolis, MN |
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| First Name: | Karli | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Evangelical Free, Baptist, Roman Catholic (2008) |
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 06:48 am |
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I discovered Judith 13:18 recently when I was looking for NT references to the deuterocanon, which says, "Then Uzziah said to her:"Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the cheif of our enemies."". It seems very likely to me then, that in Luke 1 when Elizabeth says to Mary, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!" she intended to relate Mary to Judith.
I am a bit ashamed to admit that I have so far only read bits of the deuterocanon, and had never even opened Judith before this. So, out of curiousity I wondered why Elizabeth would compare Mary to Judith, so I read Judith straight through. And it was amazing!! I suppose this is all common knowledge for many of you, but Judith was this Jewish woman who cut off the head of the general of the Assyrian army, who were trying to destroy all of Israel, and were succeeding up until that point. The entire nation of Israel cheered for her, and gave her the highest honor and praise, and she led the entire nation in a song of thanksgiving to God. It's really beautiful! And whats amazing is that when Elizabeth related Mary to Judith, she was saying more than blessed are you, she was also giving her all the honor that Judith had received and declaring that by her the cheif of our enemies would be destroyed. This was really eye opening for me.
Essentially, this is Biblical evidence that Mary is to be given the very highest honor, and that she was given that honor even in the 1st century, when Luke wrote his gospel. Of course in order for this to carry any weight in a conversation with a Protestant, you first have to explain why Judith is scripture...
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"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 03:45 pm |
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That IS interesting. I wonder why I haven't heard or read that anywhere in books or DVD's about Mary....
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 12:20 am |
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| This sounds like it might be a new and novel interpretation, Judith as a "type" for Mary. Lets ask Dave for his oppinion as to the teaching of the church fathers on this.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 12:59 am |
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tedjenczewski wrote:
This sounds like it might be a new and novel interpretation, Judith as a "type" for Mary. Let's ask Dave for his opinion as to the teaching of the church fathers on this.
It goes back at least to medieval times, as witness this essay on St. Thomas Aquinas.
David
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january tuesday
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| Joined: | Fri Apr 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Minneapolis, MN |
| Posts: | 41 |
| First Name: | Karli | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Evangelical Free, Baptist, Roman Catholic (2008) |
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 07:04 pm |
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| thats good to see that this has been noticed in the past, do people not talk about it much anymore? how come?
____________________
"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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David W. Emery
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 07:38 pm |
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january tuesday wrote:
That’s good to see that this has been noticed in the past. Do people not talk about it much anymore? how come?
My surmise, Karli, is that this long-standing theological insight, like so many others, has been studiously ignored by theologians and experts in the 43 years since the Second Vatican Council on the (false) principle that the council did away with everything that went before, and we are starting Christianity all over again, beginning in the 20th century.
Why do I say this? Because this council offered no new definitions and condemned no heresies, but instead, in its wake, came wave after wave of “pastoral” changes, supposedly designed to bring the Church up to date and make it “relevant” to the times. Big fallacy. The changes were, for the most part, not mandated by the council and were instead dreamed up and implemented by people who had no authority to do so. One of these changes was the wiping clean of the slate of tradition and custom, assuming that anything that existed before the council should make way for “contemporary wisdom.” This wisdom, alas, proved to be no wisdom at all, and the wisdom of the past was forgotten in a flurry of wings as people lost the faith and flew the coop. What remained was a vacuum; nobody had been taught the wisdom of the past, so they were ignorant — kind of like what has happened in the public schools in this country, where things like classical literature and history have given way to contemporary screeds and ideologies, so that no one today knows about these things or benefits from them.
Another example of a “forgotten” theological point is the recent “discovery” by Dr. Scott Hahn (while still a Protestant) of the traditional patristic significance of the book of Revelation, wherein its heavenly scenes depict the Eucharistic celebration. In fact, numerous Fathers of the Church styled the Mass/Divine Liturgy as “heaven on earth.” Dr. Hahn readily admits that he did not “author the theory,” but simply stumbled across something that had been standard belief for centuries but had, for whatever reason, drifted off into oblivion. Now, a couple decades later, millions of people have either read The Supper of the Lamb or at least heard about it and have discovered for themselves that both the book of Revelation and the celebration of the Mass are more accessible and have more meaning than previously thought.
David
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january tuesday
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| Joined: | Fri Apr 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Minneapolis, MN |
| Posts: | 41 |
| First Name: | Karli | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Evangelical Free, Baptist, Roman Catholic (2008) |
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 07:47 pm |
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oh, yes, I have read the Lamb's Supper as well, and I remember now that he talked about how the idea had been lost in recent times.
that's really too bad. I think there were a lot of good changes made in vatican II, but it's disappointing that beautiful understandings of things have been lost. they are not lost completely though, we do still have the writings of the Fathers, if one has the time and resources to teach oneself...
maybe someday I'll write a book about Mary and Judith, or contact Scott Hahn and see if he'll write it, since he has theological degrees to validate him 
Last edited on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 07:49 pm by january tuesday
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"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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