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kersca
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| Joined: | Fri May 23rd, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 11:58 am |
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Hey all,
The past few weeks I have been contemplating the problem of disobedience in the Church. Now I am not talking about personal sin... that is a problem but is a whole different topic. What I am talking about is the problem of individual parishes and priests who bend the Catholic faith to make it more welcoming. Not only priests, but deacons, catechists, DREs, etc... To be specific here are some examples that I have seen and am convinced are not isolated instances:
*Priests adlibbing the words of consecration (substituting friends for disciples, adding phrases, etc...)
*Priests saying that I needn't abstain from communion if under mortal sin.
*Reconciliation being ignored by catechesis programs.
*Varios non-ordained persons giving the homily (some even sent by the diocese)
*Claiming the miracles recorded in the New Testament were attempts of the gospel writers to give credability to their story.
*Claiming Vatican II defends everything modern.
So, I see this stuff all the time and these examples are the tip of the iceburg. As a convert, I have done my reading and can see when they say something that is "inaccurate". However, most cradle Catholics cannot see the difference. My wife was raised Catholic in a very liberal Catholic parish. She only went to confession once (her first confession). She left the Church and was rebaptized in another faith. When we met, she believed she was still a Catholic. When I pointed out to her the requirements for taking communion she was angry like I was making stuff up. When we were married, her parents thought the same because we did not have a nuptual mass. Ugh!!!
So, my question is this.... What do we do to change this. Personally, I teach catechism and that is something. However, it seems not enough when I see all the abuse out there. I once wrote an e-mail to a priest pointing out my frustration with him messing with the eucharistic liturgy. He didn't even respond. What to do... What to do... I love the Catholic Church and sometimes feel like I see it being destroyed right before my eyes.
Adam
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 12:53 pm |
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It’s good to realize that things aren’t entirely right in the Church and to want to do something about it. The question you’re asking, Adam, — what to do? — is always on the tip of our tongues as we assess the problem. You teach catechism; I teach and counsel here on the forum. We both know others who contribute in different ways. So what is missing from the equation? Prayer and penance, being close to Christ.
What do prayer and penance and personal holiness accomplish? They are the engine that makes the teaching we do, the example we set, the influence we have actually work. Without them, our teaching amounts to an ideologue haranguing; with them, they are the words of a saint.
You and I are not going to prevent people from sinning if they have a mind to. God doesn’t do that, either. What we are able to do is lead the way by offering our own lives to God in reparation, by abiding in him when others break away to follow strange gods. We stay the course in Christ, we let those who come into contact with us see just where we stand, not just in words but in deed and in truth. This influences far more lives than anything else we can do.
In this connection I always recommend the classic book, The Soul of the Apostolate, by Dom Jean-Baptiste Chautard, OCSO. It is the definitive work on how to make things better in the Church and in the world. Here is a listing of some available editions.
David
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 04:03 pm |
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| Adam, I have thought the very same things you are thinking, and believe it or not, I considered posting it under the same name you gave it!! There is a catholic church that the media knows. And there is a catholic church of social and historical tradition. There is the catholic church that we attend every week. Then there is the Vatican. No two of them are the same. Which is the real church? It is an excellent question, somewhat philosophical for me. Many people will say the true church is the vatican, the pope, the magisterium. But we also know that what we see and hear on Sunday morning isn't that same church. I am blessed that the parish I belong to adheres to the true teachings of the magisterium. But from what I hear and read here on the forum, that isn't the case in most places. My follow-up question to yours is this: why, in two thousand years, hasn't the catholic church been able to clarify and present to the world the real church? My hope is that now, with EWTN, if it stays true to its founding principles, the real catholic church will be seen and heard by everyone, even those who don't get it in the pew on Sunday morning.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 04:33 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote:
My hope is that now, with EWTN, if it stays true to its founding principles, the real catholic church will be seen and heard by everyone, even those who don't get it in the pew on Sunday morning.
In the words of the old black spiritual that the great Jester Hairston taught us when I was singing in his mass choirs....AAAAAAMen, AAAAAAAmen, Aamen, Amen Amen.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 04:47 pm |
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My hope is that now, with EWTN, if it stays true to its founding principles, the real catholic church will be seen and heard by everyone, even those who don't get it in the pew on Sunday morning.
An apostolate like EWTN (or for that matter, CHNI) stays true to its founding principles so long as those principles are put into practice by the people who run it, work for it, participate in it, benefit from it. Human nature being what it is, not everyone does this, and that is where we see sin and failure creep in.
This is why it is so important that we — you and I — abide in the truth, as I explained above. It doesn’t require a new worldwide organization; the one Christ established is quite enough. Instead, it requires that each individual do our part within that divine-human organism, living up to the call that each one of us has from the Lord.
In other words, it isn’t somebody else job, it’s ours. And that job is a lot closer to home than many of us realize. By assuring our own salvation, we make the salvation of those around us not only possible but probable. We are the intercessors, the holy Christs that others see. As Marcus Grodi is fond of saying, the number one reason people reject the Catholic Church is bad Catholics. Take away that excuse and you will see the world beat a path to its gates.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 05:41 pm |
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kersca wrote: What do we do to change this. Personally, I teach catechism and that is something. However, it seems not enough when I see all the abuse out there.
In the words of the Christophers, it is better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness.
Have you ever read the story of the Starfish?
The old man awoke just before sunrise, as he often did, to walk by the ocean's edge and greet the new day. As he moved through the morning dawn, he focused on a faint, far away motion.
He saw a youth, bending and reaching and flailing arms, dancing on the beach, no doubt in celebration of the perfect day soon to begin. As he approached, he realized that the youth was not dancing to the bay, but rather bending to sift through the debris left by the night's tide, stopping now and then to pick up starfish and then standing, to heave it back into the sea.
He asked the youth the purpose of the effort. "The tide has washed the starfish onto the beach and they cannot return to the sea by themselves," the youth replied. "When the sun rises, they will die, unless I throw them back into the sea."
As the youth explained, the old man surveyed the vast expanse of beach, stretching in both directions beyond eyesight. Starfish littered the shore in numbers beyond calculation. The hopelessness of the youth's plan became clear and the old man countered, "But there are more starfish on this beach than you can ever save before the sun is up. Surely you cannot expect to make a difference."
The youth paused briefly to consider my words, bent to pick up a starfish and threw it as far as possible. Turning to the old man, he said,
"I made a difference to that one."
When you teach catechism and do it right, you make a difference to not one but several. They, in turn, will be better equipped to teach their own children, and perhaps one day they'll teach a catechism class themselves.
This is the way Jesus designed our Church. He started with 12. One betrayed him, one denied him, nine ran away, and only one stood with him at his darkest hour.
Our challenge is to stand with him and his Church when things seem dark. We only see a tiny little corner of the Universal Church. Good things are happening in Rome, but it will take a long time for those changes to manifest themselves into the appointment of bishops, the revision of seminary curricula, the ordination of priests, and the appointment of pastors who will see to it that the Magisterium is properly presented in the classrooms.
But it will come. Why? Because the Holy Spirit will see to it. As I've said many times before, it takes 50 years for the Church to assimilate the results of a major Council like Vatican II. We are at 43 years. We will see a real difference in the next seven years with the revision of the liturgy and the appointment of new bishops, but it will still take more time to make it to the classroom and the pulpit. But we can see the changes coming, not in the thunder or the lightning but in the whisper of God as he guides his Church.
Be not afraid.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 06:05 pm |
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Adam,
I can't tell where you live so I don't know what kind of environment your specific diocese is, or where you can go to improve that environment. To find a more peaceful environment with better influences would be my first suggestion. We all have the right to a certain amount of peace in practicing our Faith. Find whomever you can to comfort you. For instance, look for those in your own parish who stay after Mass to make a thanksgiving and befriend them. Find those outside the parish, or a new parish if you have to, to befriend. Do not ignore the power of one good and faithful priest as a friend. And there's us! 
David E is right, as usual. When people decide to sin, we can't do much about it. We can only control our own behavior and try to be a saintly influence on others.
Two observations: Catholics who think they know it already are the hardest to reach [liberal or traditional]. And newbies in the Church can be like teenage drivers who tell their parents how to drive, lacking perspective and experience, they don't know what they don't know and focus only on the little they know. I can't tell you what to do, but be aware of these two conditions as trials against patience.
I identify with your frustration over ignorant Catholics and apathetic religious. Over the long years, I've seen a lot of upheaval and much suffering by the laity. I have learned to focus on the priesthood, the magisterium and that which is good in the Church. If you focus on the bad, not only will you become embittered, but neurotic and maybe beligerant. Also, those focusing on the bad behavior are terribly tempted to disobedience. I mean, look at Luther - he resented the bad behavior in the Church so much, look what it led to - Taking it all into his own hands to run the Church "right". Obedience is far more pleasing to God than being "right".
Also like Rick says, be patient. The Church always stands firm against onslaught. Sheesh! This isn't the first time there has been faithless behavior. Nor will it be the last.
The laity does have influence in the Church - many historical devotions and some swings back to piety have been rooted in devotion of the people. Pray for priests. Don't forget that the hierarchy/priest is our authority and that is where our salvation is.
If obedience wasn't so hard, and sometimes complex, it wouldn't be such an effective sanctifier!
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
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kersca
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 06:59 pm |
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Thank you all.
Rick, your words were very encouraging...
"When you teach catechism and do it right, you make a difference to not one but several. They, in turn, will be better equipped to teach their own children, and perhaps one day they'll teach a catechism class themselves."
Living holiness and faithfulness to Christ is paramount as David said. I guess my frustration was getting the better of me. I guess I just have to keep throwing those starfish back in...
Adam
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 09:03 pm |
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Short and "personal" answer: what we do is try to be faithful ourselves, learn and live and share the faith, do penance, pray, partake of the sacraments, love God and other human beings, and have children and raise them as good Catholics.
The institutional "solution to the modernist crisis" question is far more complex. I believe recent popes have taken very important steps to reform the Church and weed out the liberal, dissident nonsense that can be found (sadly) almost everywhere. It's not an easy problem to solve, because the pope cannot supervise every diocese. That is the bishops' responsibility. And when they fail in their duty then problems arise. Many times they have all the best intentions, but the problems run so deep that they can only do so much on a diocesan level.
I took a stab at the question in this paper of mine:
"Why Doesn't Pope John Paul II DO Something About the Modernist Dissenters in the Catholic Church?"
On another level of analysis, we mustn't be surprised when we find sin in the Church. This is no different than it ever has been:
Biblical Evidence for Sinners in the Church
Sins and Sinners in the Catholic Church
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Jun 24th, 2008 09:04 pm |
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FYI: I also have a collection of articles about liberal dissent in the Church:
Liberal Theology and Modernism
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 01:21 am |
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Good responses one and all. Just thought I'd throw in an interesting tidbit I learned from some historical account or other.
Seems that when Napoleon was having his revolution in France a couple centuries back, he said to the Pope at the time (sorry, don't remember which one... and I'm paraphrasing, too, btw): "I will destroy your Church!" (meaning the Catholic Church), and the Pope, unworried, said something like, "If we haven't destroyed ourselves in all this time, you sure won't be able to."
I seem to remember Mother Angelica from time to time saying something like, "Don't worry. God is in His Heaven and everything's in His hands. God is in control."
It's a hard thing to remember. It is for me, I know, because I can tend to be something of a control freak. But I have to remind myself constantly of these things. The Church is full of sinners. That's why we need Jesus.
God is in control! No worries.
(Now, if I can just continue to convince myself of that and practice what I preach...  )
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Therese Z
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Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 07:52 pm |
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It might have been Belloc who said to a friend who was converting to the Catholic faith:
"Welcome to the Catholic Church! Come on in! Isn't it awful?"
And Mark Shea, wonderful Catholic apologist, says
"I don't believe in organized religion - I'm a Catholic!"
The longer I persevere in the faith, the more I understand that a church building full of happy, well-organized, agreeing, contented people is not going to last, being self-selected and in a lucky lull between sins and disagreements. The Catholic Church is full of sinners, and only our dependence on the Lord's being with us until the end of time carries us forward in hope and faith.
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left coast mystic
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Posted: Fri Jun 27th, 2008 10:14 pm |
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It can be very disheartening to be surrounded by people who are indifferent (or maybe oblivious) of God's presence when you're in "24/7 worship mode". The good news is that God can shape us to reflect His character regardless of what those around us are doing. The hard news is that the shaping tools he uses are those same people that we're having a hard time with! This is how we learn humility, and to honor others by seeing God standing behind them.
It has helped me to fend off frustration by remembering that God never promised that following Him would be easy....but it is simple: love Him, and love the people around you, whether they deserve it or not - none of us deserve it.
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 03:07 am |
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| I must be the luckiest member of the forum. Our parish members are very reverent. Our pastor does everything the way the church teaches and according to the GIRM. He faces toward the altar and not the people, He sings beautifully, we have no altar girls, and during the 11:00 a.m. mass only deacons assist with administering the Eucharist. Everyone is quiet when they're supposed to be, they sing when they're supposed to. Rarely, someone slips out after receiving the Eucharist, but I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. Our music is superb and about to get more so with our CHNI forum member HeardClarke's husband taking the job as full-time music director. Our pastor is a convert and I'm beginning to wonder if that makes a difference. Aren't we converts supposed to be more catholic than the pope? Anyway, I have added a little line to my daily prayer that goes, "Dear Lord, please speak to the hearts and minds of those liberal priests and bishops who are playing fast and loose with the mass. They are losing the respect of their people, and losing vocations. Show them they are hurting your church, and teach them your will. Amen"
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january tuesday
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 05:44 am |
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is all liberal dissent bad? the things kersca lists do sound like a problem but, I guess, I don't have any problem with altar girls and lay people distributing the Eucharist, stuff like that. A nun in my parish I have gotten to know well and admire very much has always wished she could be a priest and was so disappointed as a little girl to learn she wasn't allowed. I guess I should research the reasons why only men can be priests a little more before I really say this, but right now I wouldn't feel bad if the Church allowed women to be priests. Sometimes changes are good. After all, the Church is not exactly the same as it was in 33 AD, a lot of wonderful growth and changes have happened.
I do understand the concerns here though, a lot of people would like to break down all that makes the Church beautiful and enduring, and meld it into our current culture, which I really do not wish to see. But not all changes are bad, right?
____________________
"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 12:31 pm |
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january tuesday wrote:I don't have any problem with altar girls and lay people distributing the Eucharist, stuff like that.
But that’s not liberal dissent, Karli. Right now the Church permits these things lawfully. The dissent is in stuff that is beyond them. Here is a list of some of the Church’s concerns about how the Mass should be conducted, listing both how things should be done and what things are forbidden that are commonly disregarded. This document, known as Redemptionis Sacramentum by its beginning words in Latin, the Church’s official language, was issued by Cardinal Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in 2004 by order of Pope John Paul II.
Meanwhile, this is the document in which Pope John Paul II explains why women cannot be ordained priests. It is known as Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and was issued in 1994. Note that at the end of the document the pope makes a solemn declaration that the Church does “has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women” and that “this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” This point was recognized by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith as a formal, definitive and infallible pronouncement of the faith.
David
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january tuesday
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 05:18 pm |
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"In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behavior, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time."(5)
This is interesting, but the document doesn't really go into how they know Jesus'g choice of only men was not related to the cultural setting of his day. I don't think Jesus would just conform to a culture he disagreed with, but I do think he may have chosen men, knowing that the culture of his time would do better with men as leaders. How do we know Jesus would be opposed to the ordination of women in a time when the role and perception of women had changed?
Are there perhaps other articles which show this more clearly? I do respect John Paul's declaration, but I would like to understand why a little better.
Also, are you sure this was an infallible statement? I had once read that the only infallible statements declared by popes in the last 50 or 100 (i forget) years were about Marian doctrines, like the assumption of Mary. How do we know when the Pope is teaching something from his position in the infallible chair of Peter, and when he is just teaching as a leader that we should all respect?
____________________
"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 07:53 pm |
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january tuesday wrote: Also, are you sure this was an infallible statement? I had once read that the only infallible statements declared by popes in the last 50 or 100 (i forget) years were about Marian doctrines, like the assumption of Mary. How do we know when the Pope is teaching something from his position in the infallible chair of Peter, and when he is just teaching as a leader that we should all respect?
There is a formal process known as ex cathedra (from the chair) by which a pope declares new dogma. However, when the pope writes that something is to be definitively held by all the faithful on a matter of faith and morals with the support of the Church as evidenced by the bishops, that declaration becomes infallible doctrine. The statement on the ordination of women meets that criteria. There are other signs as well, including that the Eastern Churches have never ordained women either.
There have been two ex cathedra pronouncements declaring the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. There have been many more infallible statements.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 08:07 pm |
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january tuesday wrote:This is interesting, but the document doesn't really go into how they know Jesus's choice of only men was not related to the cultural setting of his day. I don't think Jesus would just conform to a culture he disagreed with, but I do think he may have chosen men, knowing that the culture of his time would do better with men as leaders. How do we know Jesus would be opposed to the ordination of women in a time when the role and perception of women had changed?
Since it is an absolute statement of the Magisterium, theoretically it doesn’t have to be explained or defended, although in the context of its promulgation it is both briefly explained and defended. The pope’s authority to speak in this manner rests on the First Vatican Council, First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, chapter 4, available here. And the council’s authority to make its statement extends to the very origins of Christianity and the formation of the Church in obedience to the Savior’s instruction by the Apostles as a means to protect the deposit of faith, not to “create” doctrine later on but to elucidate what was revealed by God from the beginning through his Son (Hebrews 1:1–2). In other words, “the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles” (Vatican I, ibid., ch. 4 §6).
The doctrine of a male-only priesthood is not a new one, but has been held from the very beginning of Christianity, and before that in the Jewish religion from the time of Moses, to whom it was revealed directly by the Lord. So it is not the doctrine, the Church or even Christianity as a whole that must be defended, but the challenge to it that came 2,000 years later by the feminist movement — a cultural trend from outside the Church — that must provide the arguments for its position.
Over the course of the 20th and what has transpired of the 21st centuries, it has become apparent that the cultural movement of feminism is based on a false understanding of human gender, the equality of the sexes and the diversity of their natures and callings. Pope John Paul II, over the period of most of a decade, produced a wide-ranging series of talks embodying his counter-argument to this false understanding. It is collectively known as the Theology of the Body. This is so far at the level of the Ordinary Magisterium, rather than at the level of Dogma, but all levels of the Church’s authority are divinely established and therefore not to be taken lightly.
The basic response of the Church, therefore, is that the Christian understanding of gender, the equality of the sexes and the diversity of their natures and callings does not admit of the latter-day feminist interpretation. Therefore, the idea of a male-only priesthood, having been in place from the beginning and supported by such arguments as the fact that Jesus Christ, our high priest, is a male human being, must stand as part our understanding of the diversity of nature and calling between men and women among the faithful.
Also, are you sure this was an infallible statement? I had once read that the only infallible statements declared by popes in the last 50 or 100 (I forget) years were about Marian doctrines, like the assumption of Mary. How do we know when the Pope is teaching something from his position in the infallible chair of Peter, and when he is just teaching as a leader that we should all respect?
It is easy to confuse the Dogmas of the Immaculate Conception of Mary (1854 by Pope Pius IX) and the Assumption of Mary into heaven after her sojourn on earth (1950 by Pope Pius XII) with the lower-level — but still infallible — statements of doctrine such as the one by John Paul II on the all-male priesthood. Dogma is the highest level of authority in the Church, and it is invoked or exercised infrequently with great solemnity either by an ecumenical council or by the pope after due consultation with the bishops. But infallibility extends to anything formally declared (“ex cathedra”) by the pope in the realm of faith and morals, regardless of the level of solemnity or authority accorded it. Thus the condemnation of artificial contraception by Pope Paul VI in his encyclical letter Humanae Vitae qualifies as infallible, even though it is not at the highest level of doctrine.
Finally, I need to mention that John Paul II has, in spite of your statement to the contrary, evidently addressed the feminist argument concerning the “cultural setting of his day” in his statement that Christ made his choice of apostles and his response to gender and the “dignity and vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time.” His argument is that Christ, being God, did by his act of choosing all men for the priesthood, indicate that it does not pertain to the vocation of women to be priests.
David
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