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Dave Armstrong
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 09:56 pm |
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It’s very difficult to be in this situation, because both sides have heartfelt beliefs and feel that they can’t compromise.
The party in a formerly all-Protestant marriage who feels led to Catholicism can always attend Mass on Saturdays and continue to worship with the Protestant spouse at his or her service. The Protestant may feel duty-bound to not worship at Mass, but I don’t see why a Catholic could not go to a Protestant worship service (as long as they don't imply belief in things contrary to Catholicism, and don't partake in communion, etc.). This is what I recommend in such situations, as a way to avoid a painful rupture in worship practices.
There is nothing contradictory at all in doing so, as long as one doesn’t go against anything one has come to believe. I would strongly urge all in this situation to do so. And perhaps one day the Protestant party will be willing to attend Mass. They don’t have to kneel. They don’t have to violate anything they believe. It’s a gesture of unity.
It takes two to bend in these situations. In my opinion, it is unwise and pretty inflexible for the potential or actual Catholic to refuse to go to Mass on Saturday in order to maintain some sense of continuity of the former worship practice in the marriage, and for the sake of the feelings of the Protestant party (if the latter has expressed a strong need to keep worshiping together). It certainly seems like one good avenue to seriously consider.
I always urge Catholic converts to be as respectful and considerate of the feelings and opinions of their Protestant spouses as they can be. There are many ways to do that, that are often overlooked or spurned. I think it is supremely important to emphasize common ground. There is so much! Virtually the entire Nicene Creed, etc.
I am on record, time and again, recommending that newly-converted Catholics not push Catholic belief on spouses (i.e., not in an overly zealous, forceful, obnoxious, contentious way). It’s a matter of conscience for everyone and each person has to believe and worship according to their own conscience, under God. If constructive conversation on these matters is to be had, it can’t be forced, and timing and sensitivity are everything. Yes, we should share our faith, but with wisdom, discretion, and prudence: above all in family situations and others who are close to us and/or with us a lot of the time.
Likewise, I would say that Protestants ought to grant those who feel led to Catholicism that right and prerogative, without all this pressure put upon them, as if the potential future Catholic has two heads or a screw loose. But of course if Catholics are not regarded as fellow Christians, just like any other fellow Protestant group, then extreme difficulty arises, because one person is trying to save the other from hell and the Great Whore of Babylon, etc.
This is why I have challenged, time and again, the more vocal Internet debaters for the anti-Catholic position, to engage the topic of the definition of Christianity in a live chat room setting. But they persistently refuse. There could be so much less conflict and pain if both sides would just talk intelligently about such fundamental issues.
Some who are going through this crisis may feel that God doesn't care about spiritual unity in the family. That is not the case at all, and we can't jump from our own situations, brought about by various causes and shortcomings, and what God wills. He wants profound unity not only in marriages but in the Body of Christ (John 17 and many Pauline passages). That is an objective truth.
Identifying the sum of doctrinal propositions of such unity is, of course, the difficulty, because folks disagree on such content. But can’t we all agree that there is such a thing as “Christian truth” and “biblical truth”; that it is not relative to the person or group, and that there must be some objective way to discern it?
The one thing no one can say, it seems to me (Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox or “non-denominational” storefront church in Podunk) is that God has no opinion on spiritual unity and that there is no one truth to be discovered.
Protestants traditionally (but well past the “Reformation” period) have dealt with this conundrum by the notion of primary and secondary doctrines, with the latter being the dozens of doctrines and practices where they disagree and have found no way to determine the one true doctrine. I find that idea, however, to be totally absent from Scripture.
So we Catholics continue to argue in may ways that the Catholic Church is the fullness of Christian truth, embodied in the historical institution of the Church, led by the Holy Spirit and protected from doctrinal error.
And Protestants continue to argue that folks can disagree on the “secondary” issues and still have unity. Nuh-uh. That ain’t a biblical view. The original Protestants didn’t argue this way at all. They felt that they had spiritual and theological truth and fought for it. It’s only when liberalism came in and continuing Protestant sectarianism, that this other worldview of acceptance of the necessary presence of contradiction and error somewhere, started being accepted.
But in a concrete marriage situation, there are great practical difficulties, and the issue of respecting the right of conscience of our spouse to worship as they feel that they should (just as law and society do, or should). There are only so many choices as to how to go about coping with the stress of such a difficult and stressful situation:
1) If the two are able to disagree amiably and have discussions where there are disagreements without degenerating into squabbles and quarrels, then they can calmly discuss theological differences, with mutual respect and the emphasis on trying to better understand the other's point of view (if not yet being persuaded by it). This would be the ideal.
2) If the two, however, have a history of not being able to disagree amiably, without hurtful insults and tempers being lost (including, presumably, on theological matters in particular), then they may decide to mutually agree to allow each other to believe and worship as they please, and agree to disagree (basically, avoid the subject for the sake of peace, and to be mutually tolerant by default, so to speak).
3) A third way to go about it (if #2 is generally the case) is to discuss theological matters in either a group setting (from either theological party) or a moderated setting. Both of these scenarios minimize the possibility of someone losing it and flying off the handle, and maximize (assuming the sensibility of groups and moderators) the potential of constructive discourse and increase of understanding.
4) A fourth option is the acceptance of #2: not wanting to talk and quarrel, but both being willing to read on their own, materials recommended by the spouse. This is both non-confrontational and educational, and ultimately makes for peace of some sort, or at least "peaceful coexistence," in a sort of detente. Then when both feel that they can talk sensibly, and after passions have died down, they can attempt the ideal solution of #1, and talk about the issues, with more knowledge about what they are, and how the discussion can constructively proceed, to mutual advantage.
In any event, it is not due to the nature of either faith community that difficulty in discussing the issues is present. It is erroneous to extrapolate to God that somehow He doesn’t want unity because these situations arise. That doesn’t follow. I can understand the emotions of the situation, but emotionalism is not the way to progress to the peace and harmony that married couples obviously desire. It has to be resolved by objective means. They may continue to theologically disagree, but I don’t see why that means never-ending tension and strife.
That doesn’t necessarily follow at all. Certainly it is possible for folks to have an amiable conversation about theological differences, even when married!  So I think the primary factor in cases of tension over theology is likely the dynamic of the relationship and the two personalities, which is not theological in cause, at bottom. It's clearly more personal than theological, on the level of underlying cause.
The unity I was referring to in my recommendation of each spouse attending worship with the other presupposed that worshiping together was very important to them. It isn’t theological unity so much as it is marital unity and consideration of the other.
In the midst of personal, emotional agony (as opposed to merely abstract theological difference), there are ways to still worship together. Everyone knows such a couple doesn't agree on everything. That ain’t the point. I’m not advocating warm fuzzy pseudo-ecumenism. I despise that. But it is two Christians worshiping together insofar as they are able.
Most "mixed" couples will have to avoid the usual “hot issues” for the time being. But they can discuss things like the incarnation, the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, the Resurrection, salvation by grace alone, heaven and hell, angels, the inspiration of the Bible (setting aside the deuterocanon for the moment), baptism, many moral teachings held in common.
There is a world of things that can be discussed in unity. Couples just have avoid those where they clash. Most married couples have those areas that they avoid for the sake of peace, whether it has to do with various areas of finance or childrearing, or sexual frequency and various sensitivities in that regard, and so forth. Why should theology be any different?
But these are personal, personality, marital issues, of how to talk about this stuff, not solely theological and ecclesiological. Nothing in Catholicism per se requires that there must be marital friction simply because one person became a Catholic. People can talk and try to understand and respect each other.
A Protestant-Catholic marriage has tensions more so because it is a difference, period, not so much because it is specifically a theological difference. And the way this rather painful, agonizing difference is worked out is like any other difference in marriage: by compromise, a lot of listening, and both parties being willing to bend and give in, in areas where they are allowed to do so.
I disagree strongly that it is the nature of Catholicism to make married couples miserable because one is Protestant. There will naturally be an unavoidable strain, from differences, but that goes back to why married couples have a hard time with any number of differences and disagreements.
Most couples in this difficult situation love each other and want to be happily married; it is completely possible that they can willingly avoid certain things (not necessarily forever) for the sake of the marriage and the spouse that they dearly love. This is not the worst possible thing by a long shot. Imagine if a spouse had become an atheist or a Muslim!? Talk about marital friction! Protestants and Catholics are both Christian.
It’s right to feel the pain of separation on both sides (I’m the only Catholic in my entire extended family), but for heaven’s sake, why can’t we rejoice in what we hold in common, too? there is nothing whatsoever wrong about that. It’s not head-in-the-sand or pie-in-the-sky: it is acknowledging a reality where two people have strong differences, but they also have a great deal in common too, as Christians. When there is tension it is only sensible and smart to emphasize the commonalities. Once things calm down, then couples can try to do the “heavy” conversations (if they are able to disagree amiably with each other).
In the case of a wife converting to Catholicism, sometimes "headship" or "submission" issues may arise. But a wife is under no compulsion to submit to a husband even to the extent of a matter of conscience like religious belief. No one can force anyone else to believe a certain thing. They are free as an individual before God to make that choice on their own. That doesn’t come under submission, and I would say that any notion of submission that would preclude religious freedom and freedom of conscience is abuse and not a biblical teaching, and conscience and following God at all costs are clearly superior to the prerogatives of a husband in headship.
That said, I would say that such wife should respect her Protestant husband's feelings (especially if he repeatedly expresses such a desire) and do all she can to maintain existing common ground in these matters, including worshiping together. If it means an long drive to an alternate Saturday Mass to do so, so that they can worship together in a Protestant service on Sunday, she should do it in a heartbeat. And I would say that is respecting the husband as the head, and acting in a sensitive, loving fashion, insofar as she can do so in good conscience. She violates nothing in Catholicism to do that. Many people drive a long way to work every day. One day a week wouldn’t or shouldn’t put anyone out.
Some might say that those in this situation should compromise and reach a mutually agreeable solution. But how does this work in religious matters? Think about it for a moment. How does one compromise in matters of conscience? This is a huge can of worms. If one spouse thinks and believes in faith one set of doctrines is truth and the other subscribes to another, with equally heartfelt faith and sincerity, though they (Catholic and Protestant) actually intersect about 60-70%, the other areas where they differ do not allow either party to ignore what they themselves believe.
So how does one "compromise" in such a situation? Become an Anglican? The Catholic can’t do that, because Anglicans ditched the papacy (due to a certain prominent personages problems with lust), and today they ordain practicing homosexuals. They disagree with other Protestants in other profound ways, so that someone like a Baptist or Reformed Protestant couldn’t subscribe to their creed, let alone the doctrinal and moral chaos that is presently going on in that communion.
So what is accomplished by going there? Very little. Both parties would still disagree profoundly with things there: some the same, some separately. Therefore, it is no solution, because going to such a “compromise” place violates both of their consciences and principles.
So what else is there? Lutheranism? The same thing would apply on a lesser scale: the Catholic would disagree with all that Lutherans tossed out (I have documented 50 things that Luther dissented on by 1520). Baptists and many other evangelicals don’t accept stuff like baptismal regeneration and the real presence in the Eucharist. Missouri Synod Lutheranism has closed communion, too, so neither could partake. What does it solve? Nothing.
Orthodoxy? There, the evangelical would have more problems than the Catholic (the papacy being the main issue), but neither could partake of communion.
So there is no “compromise” in this sense. Neither party can simply change what they believe, apart from the usual means of persuasion and God changing folks’ hearts. The only way to “compromise” is to do exactly what I have suggested: go easy, avoid hot topics, stress common ground, and worship together insofar as it is possible to do so. When the Catholic spouse is at the Protestant service, at least he or she is in a place with the Protestant spouse where the latter fully accepts the creed or statement of belief (and much of it a Catholic can agree with).
If the Protestant spouse goes to Mass, then he or she are in a place where at least their spouse fully accepts the belief-system. At least one party is accepting the beliefs of the surroundings, whereas in attending these other churches, that is never the case for either of them.
This is what people do when they have differing beliefs that don’t allow compromise, by their nature. One can’t be half pro-life or half pro-choice. I can’t say that sodomy is permissible on Tuesdays and Thursdays, as a loving concession to well-meaning homosexual persons. No; I have to say (with all love and no hatefulness) that it is wrong all the time.
So how in the world would "compromises" like the above scenarios work? I can’t imagine any "solution" that would be anywhere near satisfactory. But we can tolerate differences that we have with each other. It’s a lot harder (and, I think, more praiseworthy) to get along while having profound differences, than to minimize these and adopt some “compromise” that is pleasing and satisfactory to no one and compromises both people.
Last edited on Thu May 8th, 2008 09:58 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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sewnsew
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 06:18 pm |
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Great essay
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Free
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| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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Good ruminations, Dave. You mentioned that you are the only Catholic in your extended family...is your immediate family Catholic? Judy and your children?
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rbo4u2
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
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| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 08:51 pm |
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Hi Dave
I've been wanting to respond, but time hasn't been on my side lately. Your post deserves more thought than I have time for right now. I don't like to give too many knee jerk responses when it's on a serious subject like this that impacts where I am.
I may not get back to it for days, since next Tuesday, my wife and I go on vacation for a couple of weeks where we'll have no email contact at all. It's a little tough to lug my 27" Imac along with us.
You touch upon a very important subject and deserves some chewing on.
Thanks for your fine intellect and contributions.
Things are all quiet right now on the Western front and for a while I'm going to try and keep it that way.
God bless
Rich
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 11:06 pm |
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Thanks for the kind words, Rich (and Kim and Jane). Enjoy your vacation (I got three months to go for mine, but I can't wait!), and I look forward to your thoughts.
I wrote most of this, by the way, in response to a Baptist pastor on the Internet whose wife decided to become a Catholic. He announced this, and people replied, including me. I "depersonalized" it to make it a general essay.
You mentioned that you are the only Catholic in your extended family...is your immediate family Catholic? Judy and your children?
Hi Jane,
Yep. Judy reverted back to the Church at the same time I converted, but not really due to any influence (let alone pressure) from me; rather, due to Catholic friends we were dialoguing with, and (of course) the Holy Spirit. I was received in February 1991, and our first child was born on April 20, 1991. Good timing! So all the (four) kids (17, 14, 11, 6) are good Catholics. Our 6yo daughter gets bored at Mass, but she has a lively conscience and feels bad when she does something wrong, so we're not worried about her. 
We had been Protestants for a little more than six years as a married couple.
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http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue May 13th, 2008 04:29 am |
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Dave, Excellent testimony, as all of your's are. But this one hit home in a very big way. I'm trying to write my "return home" story (for lack of a better way to put it, now) and you brought back a lot of memories of how circuitous this path so many of us in mixed marriages have to travel can be.
BUT -- if we don't take that first step, and we sit back and find ourselves nursing old "what-ifs" and ruminating over a lot of other regrets, well, we might as well grab a huge container of Tums and try to "make peace" with an unresolved past full of regrets and an uncertain future that could bring even more regrets if we don't take that step, and follow it up. Even if it's a baby step ... it's still a leap.
Thanks for your example(s).
Steven 
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 09:56 pm |
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Hi Steven,
I think it is good to incorporate these "unfinished" or "contradictory" elements in our conversion stories, because that is real life. I happened to be spared from that difficulty (my post above came from interacting with someone who was going through these things), but many aren't. I think anything that conveys real life and doesn't sugar-coat it is good, cuz that is how life is. Things don't always get concluded in a neat little package, wrapped with a bow, happily ever after, etc.
The trouble in so many Christian circles is the pretense that (Christian) life is that way. Hence, the "name-it-claim it" prosperity gospel, etc., that would be laughed out of most churches in the world and at most times throughout history.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Cinlite
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Posted: Fri May 16th, 2008 02:12 am |
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Your article is quite true. I have already employed much of this philosophy in my own situation. I have learned that it is ALWAYS better to trust in the Holy Spirit to allow those situations to arise and share in a loving and open manner. It is true, there is no such thing as a church that would be a compromise for those that are in a mixed marriage. My husband and I were both life long Protestants when I started a Bible study that lead me to the Catholic Church. The cruel part of the journey for me was that the door to the Church would be locked in regard to me entering in full communion. The irony - my husband who did not approve of my conversion would be the one that would have to facilitate it by an annulment of his first marriage that ended in divorce. By marriage tribunal standards, there is much evidence there to grant him an annulment of his first marriage. The problem lies in the fact that he does not wish to convert (yes, we know that he would not have to) and he on principal will not submit to the process because he does not agree with it. I know I can't be the only convert to prevented entrance by a non cooperative spouse.
I have attended Mass now for 8 years in hope that one day I will have the awesome privilege of receiving Jesus in the Eucharist. I pray daily that my husband will yield and facillitate my entrance into the Church and I even pray that he will embrace the Church as well. Yes, there are a variety of difficulties in mixed marriages and this situation is one. I wish there was a support group for people in my situation. I would attend.....believe me!
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Joslyn
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Posted: Fri May 16th, 2008 04:06 pm |
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"The Protestant may feel duty-bound to not worship at Mass, but I don’t see why a Catholic could not go to a Protestant worship service (as long as they don't imply belief in things contrary to Catholicism, and don't partake in communion, etc.)."
Although my situation is not one of an mixed Christian marriage, I've found this approach to be wonderful with my non-Catholic family and friends, as well! My parents and grandmother have come to Mass with me if I come to their service with them. My mother even shocked me once, by quoting from a homily given by the priest! Adam and I are currently doing a "Church Exchange Program" with two of our friends here in Rochester. They are very interested in coming to the Maronite Liturgy (and even the Latin Mass in town sometime) one week, and the next week, we'll go with them to their Presbyterian community (we'll just hit up a Saturday "Vigil Mass" first ). As long as heresy is not embraced, why not? It can only encourage friendship and dialogue.
Also, you'll never know how many souls you might touch, just by your example. If you are a friendly, open, and intelligent person and others see you reading Scripture, quoting it, and loving the Lord-- and THEN they find out that you're Catholic-- it might just give them enough of a tail spin to start asking questions! Or repair the image some have of us Catholics.
My heart goes out to all of you on the forums who are in mixed marriages... Dave offers some wonderful advice. Keep living for Jesus, keep loving the Church. I know it might seem crazy now, but the Holy Spirit will work in your spouce's heart-- and the hearts of your family. Hang in there, and know that our thoughts and prayers are with you.
With Sisterly Love in Christ,
Joslyn
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Joslyn
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Posted: Fri May 16th, 2008 04:18 pm |
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Cinlite wrote:I have attended Mass now for 8 years in hope that one day I will have the awesome privilege of receiving Jesus in the Eucharist."
Oh, honey! I can't even imagine the pain you are going through. I had to wait three years from the time I first wanted to become Catholic until actually being baptized and confirmed, and those years were agony. I would go to Mass and think, regarding those who went up for communion, "Lord, what I woudln't give to trade places with one of these people for just 10 minutes!" I can't imagine eight years of that!
I know you've probably already heard this before, but just keep offering it up. Somewhere, a soul is reaping the benefits of your merit, and you never how much your unique missionary work might affect the lives of others! God is also working in your heart, dear one, and making you closer to Him. He is holding you close. He desires you even more than you desire Him.
All of this will work for good, in His way and in His timing... And it will be more beautiful than anything you will have ever imagined.
If you ever need a friend, I am here for you.
*Huge Hug*
Love in Christ,
Joslyn
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri May 16th, 2008 05:32 pm |
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Hi Cynthia,
That must be very painful and tough for you, indeed. If it is any consolation, often in these cases, time is on the side of the Catholic. People often "soften up" over time if they are not pushed.
Thanks for your helpful thoughts, Joslyn.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Cinlite
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 03:19 am |
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I always appreciate and covet prayer. It is only with prayer that this battle will be won. That I know! One thing I have learned is that it is unwise to push. My husband does not respond well to that. I have found ways to curb expressing my enthusiasm for the Church. He does not understand or appreciate the treasure I have found in the Church. The only point of agreement we have with Catholic doctrine is that of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. He believes that! It is a starting point for sure. He is a strict Rapturist and he is fervantly against Amillenial doctrine in regard to the end times. This is the BIGGEST obstacle to him embracing the Church. Although I have found some disagreement among some Catholics on that topic.
Joclyn, thank you for your kind words of encouragement. It is much appreciated. Believe me, it is difficult to be encouraged sometimes. There is not much of a support system for people like me in the Church and God knows I would receive no understanding from my former faith community. This limbo place is not a fun place to be. My strength is solely in the Lord and in prayer and of course kind words of encouragement from those who understand what it feels like being on the outside looking in. Peace of Jesus to you!
Thank you!
Blessings to you!
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Joslyn
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| First Name: | Joslyn | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Independent, Fundamental Baptist; Now a Born-Again, Baptized Catholic! :) |
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 04:06 pm |
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I think you'd really like the song "In Christ Alone"... if you have iTunes, you should listen to a free clip. It's one the most uplifting songs I've heard, and it always brings a smile to my face! I just thought it might bring consolation to your heart.
With Love in Christ,
Joslyn
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Kim M.
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 05:27 pm |
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Dave, this was excellent and helpful. Thanks!
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Sat May 17th, 2008 09:10 pm |
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You're most welcome, Kim!
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Cinlite
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| First Name: | Cynthia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Raised Lutheran, as an adult I was Evangelical , then ... |
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Posted: Sun May 18th, 2008 02:23 am |
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Thank you for the suggestion of the song. I am a trained musician and a former Assembly of God worship pianist. Music tends to touch me very deeply. I know the song. It is quite beautiful. That is the ONLY aspect of having been a Protestant that I miss very badly. The beautiful worship songs that touch your heart.
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kersca
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| Joined: | Fri May 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 66 |
| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 12:06 pm |
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I became Catholic before I was married. I had actually converted before my first marriage. My wife had left the Catholic Church before she ever met me. So, it was difficult from the start. There were some stipulations from the annulment from my first marriage like seeing a Catholic counselor. She went with me... It was helpful. Then there was the ceremony thing. She wanted an outside wedding and it really isn't permissible except under certain circumstances. Her church would not marry us because I was baptized as an infant and not fully immersed. We decided to get married at my parish but she was heartbroken when I recommended we not have a nuptial mass because she no longer is catholic and couldn't appropriately take the Eucharist. Of course, her father was irate at that and thought me overly rigid.
Now we try to attend both her church and mine. She belongs to a Church of Christ and there are definitely some similarities as well as differences. We still have many painful situations. One such "sticky spot" is the collection plate. I am pretty "convicted" about giving a tithe. I feel she should too. We both work... So the problem arises in the fact that I feel I cannot financially support her church. So, our tithes are split. She sees that I make quite a bit more money so more money goes to my parish than hers. Then we get common monies like the tax stimulus and she a=suggests we give the money to some special ministry at her church. I try to explain that I cannot do that because her church divides the body of Christ and I cannot financially support that. In the end, she agrees to give money to a cause like children's hospital but her feelings are invariably hurt.
Another issue was when the member directory came out they listed me in it. She said she gave them the information. I was offended. I told her she should have had my name put in parenthasis because I didn't want people to assume I am one of them. As it is, they gave me a leadership role in the annual canoe trip (many don't know I am not a member of their Church).
Mostly, it is a huge issue. One thing that I loved about her was her love of God and willingness to study scriptures. I still love those things. However, there is huge heartache on both sides as well. She also has a 12 year old daughter and that makes stuff difficult as well. I teach catechism to children her age but she does not attend. That's tough too.
Well, definitely no easy solutions. Pray...pray... pray.
Kersca
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 974 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 03:04 pm |
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Adam, if it's any comfort to you, alot of married people in this forum have a few horror stories of their own when it comes to walking that bumpy, rocky and boulder-strewn path between Protestantism and Catholicism.
If ever there was a cultural divide that rarely gets mentioned in the media, it's this. On the other hand, let's be thankful, lest the media, which isn't very "Catholic friendly" to begin with, botches things up and pretty soon we'll have even more people's memories tapped, hearts ripped open and more tragedies to report. Which of course, is a newsman's steak n' eggs.
I'd just hate to contemplate the number of divorces, second or more marriages and all that follows in train because of our religious squabbles and misunderstandings; (many of them deliberately fanned and manipulated by clever busy-body in-laws, spouses, siblings, parents, church officials and this includes clerics. All of these "third man in the proverbial hockey fights" should stay the hell out. Rough language, but approbos for many instances, and I'm thinking of suffering couples on both sides of the divide.
It's quite telling when if you listen to country n western music with all its steady diet of jailed mommas, trailer trash soap operas, honky tonks, cheating spouses and drunken ex's plotting to torch their ex-spouses trailer, etc. -- and we shouldn't laugh too hard because I've seen a lot of this as a prob./parole officer in Central Florida 28 years ago.
BUT, and this is a biggie, I've yet to hear any songs dealing with heartbreaks, DE-vorces, and what have you stemming from sectarian squabbles. Lots of songs begging God for mercy, but I've yet to hear any taking sides. Now, I'm not saying we ought to start looking for Rednecks for Dummies books, but I'd like to know why the more so-called "polite" circles in society can act like a pen full of snakes, scorpions, porcupines, underfed pit bulls or rottys, roosters, and alligators when it comes to religious fights. (Oops, I left out lawyers; well, we can think about throwing them in when all else fails.)
What never fails to mystify me is the never ending parade of related Pharisees who'll roll their eyes in a New York nano-second the momen the "C" word is mentioned. Oh, not THAT religion. Oh, that really throws everything into a tizzy when the Catholic wants to exercise his or her civil rights to worship God in the way he or she sees fit--a right that's guaranteed in the Constitution.
I'd like to rewrite the First Amendment to include "family members" along with Congress when it comes to restricting people from free worship, or preventing them from establishing religious dominance over adults, especially if they're only related by a ceremony or a piece of paper. I can only imagine the poor soldier who just returned from a year's stint in combat, protecting home and hearth from "Islamofascism" only to face the Family Fuhrer telling him or her under which roof he or she has to worship the Almighty. Even a local mosque has a lot more appeal by that time.
As for the stimulus check, whatever you do, please ignore any preacher's sing-song appeal based on his and his missus proud drop of a leaded boot hint when they say they're tithing a portion to the church. If the good pastor's moonlighting, as a lot of pastors -- toiling in the majority of the not so wealthy churches one can find tucked under the shadows of the megabuck'd megachurches -- need to do just to buy gas, no less, I'd be alot more inclined to slice a portion of Bush's, Pelosi's and Reid's beneficence. But do some checking first. We all need to shear our selves, but we don't need to be willing accomplices in our own fleecing by people who are supposed to know better.
Adam, your problems are not going to disappear overnight and if I were you, I'd be positively frightened if they did from what you've already mentioned. They seem too deep-seated for now. BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THIS: THEY ARE NOT INSURMOUNTABLE; NOT IN THE LEAST.
One reason: LOVE. Love that wife of yours like you've never loved her before and don't get hung up on the membership listing and things like that. I'm listed at the Baptist church my family belongs to and I volunteer at. But I'm not interfered with. They KNOW if I want to go to Mass and I don't have something that needs doing at that specific time (such as helping out with a delivery of food for the Food Pantry and nobody else's around) I'm free to go. I have to use good common sense too. Even we Catholics have read the Bible The Church wrote to know the Book of Proverbs (commonsense) is included in the Good Book.
The hardest part is the theological. But so long as you don't buy into her church's teachings, and don't take any active role in sacramental activities, or what they consider sacramental, singing a common hymn, saying a prayer common to Catholics and Protestants, isn't going to send your soul to hell in a handbasket. If that was the case, my soul and rear would've long been historical toast by now. Compromise on sharing the donations, but don't tithe yourself into the poorhouse, either. God loves a cheerful giver, but a giver who feels so tightly bound, so committed, so earnest to tithe that his face turns blue with all the excitement isn't going to be a "cheerful" or any kind of a giver for long. So long as you both remember it's not very polite to have an armored car following a hearse, I'm sure you'll come to a just and workable compromise.
REMEMBER, IT'S NOT INSURMOUNTABLE. DAMNED DIFFICULT AT TIMES, BUT NOT INSURMOUNTABLE.
Love the daylights out of the missus and you'll see what I'm talking about.Last edited on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 03:20 pm by Steven Barrett
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1400 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 03:50 pm |
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| One of my favorite authors, Cokie Roberts, has been married to another journalist, Steve Roberts, who is Jewish, for years. They have written a book together on marriage that I would like to read. It includes how they have worked out the "mixed marriage" problem and other problems in marriage. IMO it is worth thinking about that differing faiths are just one piece of the pie. How you work out those faith differences will depend on how you work out problems in general. Are you both charitable and giving in other areas? Is one spouse seizing the "faith thing" as a way of fighting or manipulating when the real problem(s) may be something else? I don't know if I said that right, does it make sense?! Anyway, the name of the book is "From This Day Forward." Has anyway here read it? The reviews on the Barnes & Noble website are mixed.
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kersca
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| Joined: | Fri May 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 66 |
| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 03:54 pm |
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Steve,
Thanks for all the encouraging words. You are too right. She is one heck of a good woman. I found in her an admirable love for God that I wasn't finding in many Catholic women. She has my heart too. I even like her stubborn Polish side and feisty Irish side. But, as you say, it's never easy. The funny thing is, I really like the people at her church. They are friendly folks and I invite them over for dinner more than she does. It's just that I do make clear, when appropriate, that I am Catholic. They/my wife see it as me following the Catholic Church when I see it as more of following Christ. Keep praying for us all. God is always teaching us something.
Adam
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