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kidminuszero
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 08:44 pm |
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Matt 11:27. "All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him."
Note, the Holy Spirit is excluded from this verse! This could be a non-trinitarian proof text.
The Catechism reading for today, especially CCC 152, states; "One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is."
Now, in my way of understanding the Trinity, Father is God, Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, etc, etc.
Is there a contridiction in the Holy Scriptures, and the Catechism?
Kid.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 09:07 pm |
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It's not a contradiction at all. The Holy Spirit simply isn't mentioned in this passage, which is specifically about the Father-Son relationship within the Holy Trinity. The fallacy lies in assuming that if something is true, and is included in a set with other true things, that it has to be mentioned every time the others are mentioned. That doesn't follow logically.
For example, if I had two brothers and two sisters, I could say the following four things, and they would all be true:
1) I have a younger sister, x.
2) I have a younger bother, a.
3) I have an older sister, y.
4) I have an older brother, b.
All four of these statements are true. But it is untrue to say:
"#1 didn't mention a, b, and y; therefore it was denying that they are also siblings."
or:
"#3 states that this person has an older sister; therefore there are no other brothers and sisters."
Etc.
I like to illustrate how the Bible speaks of the Three Divine Persons almost interchangeably in passages about the indwelling of believers (these passages are KJV):
I) Jesus and the Father Indwell Christian Believers
JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
II) Jesus Indwells Christian Believers
JOHN 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. {cf. Jn 14:16-17}
JOHN 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I {am} in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
JOHN 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
JOHN 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; . . .
III) God the Holy Spirit Indwells Christian Believers
1 CORINTHIANS 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and {that} the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which {temple} ye are.
JOHN 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) {Even} the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. {cf. Jn 14:18 below}
ROMANS 8:9,11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his . . . (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. {cf. Rom 8:10 below}
1 CORINTHIANS 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 CORINTHIANS 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost {which is} in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? {cf. to 1 Cor 3:16}
GALATIANS 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
IV) "God" (Divine Person Not Specified) Indwells Christian Believers
(Arguably God the Father)
2 CORINTHIANS 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in {them}; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. {cf. Ex 29:45, Jer 31:33, Ezek 37:27}
V) God the Father and God the Holy Spirit Indwell Christian Believers
1 JOHN 3:24 . . . And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 JOHN 4:12-16 . . . If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (13) Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. (14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son {to be} the Saviour of the world. (15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (16) And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. {cf. Neh 9:20, Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13-15, Rom 8:14, 2 Cor 13:14}
VI) God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son, Jesus, Indwell Christian Believers
ROMANS 8:10 And if Christ {be} in you, the body {is} dead because of sin; but the Spirit {is} life because of righteousness. {cf. Rom 8:9}
VII) God the Father Indwells Christian Believers
1 JOHN 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him . . .
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Part of orthodox Catholic trinitarianism and Christology is a doctrine known as the perichoresis (Greek) or circumincession (Latin). Fr. John A. Hardon. S.J., in his Modern Catholic Dictionary (Doubleday, 1980, 415-416) precisely defines it:
The penetration and indwelling of the three persons reciprocally in one another. In the Greek conception of the Trinity there is an emphasis on the mutual penetration of the three persons, thus bringing out the unity of the divine essence. In the Latin idea . . . the stress is more on the internal processions of the three divine persons. In both traditions, however, the fundamental basis of the Trinitarian perichoresis is the one essence of the three persons in God.
Perichoresis is also specifically applied to the two natures of Christ. Biblical indications of this doctrine can be found in the following passages (RSV):
John 10:30: I and the Father are one.
John 10:38: . . . believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
John 14:9-11: Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me . . .
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 09:12 pm |
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kidminuszero wrote: Matt 11:27. "All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him."
Note, the Holy Spirit is excluded from this verse! This could be a non-trinitarian proof text.
The Catechism reading for today, especially CCC 152, states; "One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is."
Now, in my way of understanding the Trinity, Father is God, Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, etc, etc.
Is there a contridiction in the Holy Scriptures, and the Catechism?
No.
The clearest explanation of our belief in the Trinity is shown in this excerpt from the Athanasian Creed:
And the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity,
Neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated and the Holy Ghost uncreated
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal.
As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord,
So are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, There be three Gods or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another;
But the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal, so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.
He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
So there is a real difference between Father, Son, and Spirit expressed in this passage:
The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding.
The Father begat the Son, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son. The Son is "one in Being with the Father" while the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son" to us.
The Truth of the Father was revealed by the Son, but it was the Spirit who allowed the Truth to be received. It is the grace of God through the Holy Spirit that makes us receptive to the message of Christ, who teaches us the Truth of the Father.
This is incomprehensible. It is beyond our understanding. It is certainly beyond our human capacity to explain, so words will automatically fail, but one way I have heard Creation described in Trinitarian terms is, "The Creator (Father) thought, the Word (Son) spoke, the Action (Spirit) moved".
Genesis 1:1-3 (RSV) read:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
God created: Creator thought, Word spoke, Spirit acted.
In the verse you quoted, "All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him." the action of the Spirit is implied in the revelation, for like the Spirit's action being necessary for creation, the Spirit's action is necessary for our acceptance of God's grace, which comes to us from the Father through the Son by the Spirit.
Could it be used as a "proof-text"? Certainly. Any passage of scripture can be taken out of context and used to prove all sorts of things. But we have to remember that at this point in Scripture, Jesus had not yet revealed the Spirit to his disciples. That didn't come until Pentecost after his ascension into heaven. The Spirit was present and active from the first moment of creation, but was not recognized as a separate Person of the Triune God until centuries after Christ's ascension.
The first chapter of John doesn't mention the Spirit either. The Old Testament speaks of the Spirit but not the Son. The Old Testament revealed the Father; the New Testament revealed the Son; the Church reveals the Spirit.
We can dance around the words any way we want. The Father, Son, and Spirit are equally real and equally incomprehensible.
Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 09:21 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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setapart
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 09:13 pm |
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A very excellent and thorough answer, Dave. You truly have a gift of teaching.
God Bless,
Bill
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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setapart
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 09:15 pm |
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The same goes for you, Rick.
God Bless
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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kidminuszero
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 03:03 am |
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May I ask, who added the parenthesis "(Trinitarianism Question)" in the topic I originated?
In this forum are people allow to add, change, or eradicate one's comments?
If so, I find this dangerous!
"O holy simplicity!"
John Huss. (1370-1415)
Last words at the stake
Kid.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 04:02 am |
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kidminuszero wrote: May I ask, who added the parenthesis "(Trinitarianism Question)" in the topic I originated?
In this forum are people allow to add, change, or eradicate one's comments?
Only moderators can change the title of a topic, and it is done only for organizational purposes. I will occasionally correct spelling or capitalization in a topic title, although I wouldn't do that in a message. I might also clarify a title so that "marriage question" becomes more descriptive as others seek information on the forum.
Such changes are made for clarity. Most of our visitors never post, and when confronted with thousands of topics, it is important that they be able to find the ones that interest them. This is covered in our Forum Guidelines, along with remedies if you ever feel that a change was made improperly.
We don't have an overabundance of moderators so there aren't too many people who could have made the change.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 08:01 pm |
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I'm the culprit. I did that because I did a lot of work answering the question I wanted this to be available under a title that was clearly descriptive. "Reading #19: Contradiction?" is not gonna attract anyone's eye, because no one would know what the "contradiction" was referring to. Members should try to come up with a title that describes what is in the post. Think of it like the title of a newspaper article.
The post / thread is about trinitarianism. The alleged or theoretical biblical contradiction is the immediate question, but the question is about trinitarianism. So that should be in the title for future reference, as we hope that threads will also be referred to in the future, for question-answering purposes, not just when they are current.
I have done this on relatively few other occasions for the reasons Rick gives. I, too, would never edit a message; only the topic title once in a while (once I added a little footnote to another post clarifying something that was cited from me, because I had made a typo that was cited). We also move topics to entirely different areas sometimes if they don't fit where they are, in terms of category.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 03:19 am |
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kidminuszero wrote: May I ask, who added the parenthesis "(Trinitarianism Question)" in the topic I originated?
In this forum are people allow to add, change, or eradicate one's comments?
If so, I find this dangerous!
"O holy simplicity!"
John Huss. (1370-1415)
Last words at the stake
Kid.
So he sub titled it, I don't think that was so egergious!
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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