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kidminuszero
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| Joined: | Thu Dec 27th, 2007 |
| Location: | Vero Beach, Florida USA |
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| First Name: | kid | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Former Jehovah's Witness, Presently Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 07:49 pm |
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Genesis 12:13, Abram asked his wife, Sarai, to tell the Egyptians (Pharaoh) that she is Abram's sister, and not his wife!
To me, this seems to be a blatant lie.
Yet, Abram's motive is to save his and her life, so Abram's action can be resolve by a "Mitigating Conscience."
A "Mitigating Conscience" is (in my opinion) recognizing the distinction between right and wrong in regards to one's conduct coupled with a sense that one should act accordingly for the outcome to be less severe.
So Abram's little white lie (half truth, half lie) was for the good of God's purpose?
Just my opinion
Kid.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 11:16 pm |
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Actually, Kid, Sarai was Abram’s half-sister. So he was not telling a lie. He merely did not divulge the whole truth.
However, you are right in pointing out that sometimes acts of biblical persons are not virtuous after the Christian manner of morality. This is because they were not Christians. Some of them were not even Jews, so they did not have the Law to guide them. Such is the case with Abram, who lived long before the time when God gave the Law to Moses. We can’t blame such people for what God had not yet revealed.
David
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 11:20 pm |
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Does the knowledge that lying is wrong have to be obtained from revelation, though? I would say that God put such knowledge inherently within us (as Romans chapters 1 and 2 teach). I have heard in the past that this was a sin on Abraham's part.
There are, of course, "difficult scenarios" involved in speaking falsehoods, where it is argued that a sinful lie has not occurred. The most famous is, of course, not telling the Nazis that you are harboring Jews. Perhaps this was one such instance. I'd have to look at the passage again and see what commentators have said about it to have an informed opinion, rather than just the "hearsay" that I have offered.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 11:53 pm |
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Does the knowledge that lying is wrong have to be obtained from revelation.
No, Dave it doesn’t. It is covered by natural law. However, my point was that Abram was not lying. He was dissimulating (telling the truth, but not the whole truth) to protect himself from probable hostile acts due to his being a foreigner. The rest was to remind Kid that not all moral acts in the bible can be measured by today’s standards. By the way, I had a commentary in front of me as I wrote.
David
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 01:32 am |
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That very well may be, as I suggested was a possibility. I hope you are right, and that he wasn't lying!
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Free2Think
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
| First Name: | Maureen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born into Catholicism. 10 yrs communal cult &then dif. churches-reverting ... |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 02:32 pm |
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| This exchange reminds me of Rahab and how she hid two Israelites and lied about it. I'm at work, and don't have my Bible with me so I can't recall exactly who she hid or where although Joshua and Jerico keep coming to mind. When I get home later I'll look it up and post the verses. If I am also correct, I think she is in Jesus' lineage. I'm not an advocate of lying, but at the same time there are occasions when things aren't black and white but rather are gray areas. I understand the extremes of a black and white mindset because of having spent 10 years in a communal cult. There may be a degree of comfort because everything is all mapped out, but it is not a pleasant way to live because it eclipses a vibrant life of faith. Recognizing that sometimes a matter is gray in nature I think takes a strong personal relationship with the Lord. Would I have lied to the Nazis about hiding Jews? In that situation I actually honestly hope so. Does that mean that I can just lie at will and it's okay...of course not. Last edited on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 02:45 pm by Free2Think
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 05:01 pm |
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It occurs to me that an awful lot of people lied to the Nazi's during World War II about hiding Jews, and they were certainly not in the wrong for doing so.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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wisdomseeker
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 11:08 pm |
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where is the common sense? that is not a lie but omission to protect the innocent against injustice. that should be honored not condenmned. right?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 12:54 am |
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wisdomseeker wrote: where is the common sense? that is not a lie but omission to protect the innocent against injustice. that should be honored not condenmned. right?
If you are referring to my post about hiding Jews from the Nazis, in many cases it was not an omission but an outright lie. If the Nazi SS knocked on your door and asked if you had Jews in your home and you said no, while you knew they were hiding in the attic, you told a lie. It is my opinion that the Nazis had no right to the truth, and protecting the lives of those you were hiding was significantly more important than telling the truth.
I think it is also a prime example of a situation in which telling the truth is wrong. If it results in the death of an innocent person, telling the truth is the wrong path to take.
Morality is often not black and white. There are frequently shades of gray. That's why our Church tells us that while we can objectively judge evil, we cannot objectively judge sin.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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