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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5350 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 05:57 pm |
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San Jose, CA., Jul 8, 2008 / 11:57 pm (CNA).- Reaction continues to the decisions of the 218th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA), which took place between June 21 and June 28. The assembly nullified proscriptions against sexual behavior outside of marriage and called for a vote to delete the church’s constitutional standard requiring fidelity in marriage and chastity in singleness. It also initiated a process that could remove mention of the Bible’s prohibition against homosexuality form the Heidelberg Catechism.
The moves are seen by some as an attempt to clear a path for the eventual ordination of practicing homosexuals to the church offices of deacon, elder, or minister.
Further, the assembly authorized the creation of a $2 million legal fund to litigate against churches which seek to transfer to other Reformed denominations while retaining their property.
Amendments to the Heidelberg Catechism and the constitution are not final, but become effective if approved by the 173 regional governing bodies, called presbyteries, of the Presbyterian Church USA.
The Board of Directors of the Presbyterian Lay Committee decried the decision as a “frontal assault on Biblical Christianity,” saying in a July 8 statement that the General Assembly “disregarded historic Reformed standards, undermined its Constitution and failed to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ with its actions.”
“The PCUSA has jettisoned the solid rock of Biblical authority and morals and is now floundering in the sea of cultural relativity. In desperation, it lays claim to the property of congregations that love the Word of God more than denominational loyalty,” the Presbyterian Lay Committee said.
Jim Berkley, Director of the Institute on Religion and Democracy's Presbyterian Action Committee, lamented the decisions, saying in a statement:
"With a handful of rushed votes this morning, this General Assembly has turned its back on God's gracious plan for our lives. It has abandoned scriptural morality. It has caused us to deviate from the belief and practice of the church throughout history and around the world to this day.”
The General Assembly elected as its General Moderator the 39-year-old Rev. Bruce Reyes-Chow, pastor of Mission Bay Community Church in San Francisco. As General Moderator, he will represent the denomination and preside over General Assembly business. Rev. Reyes-Chow made known his support for the ordination of homosexuals as ministers, though he has not publicly stated his position on same-sex marriage.
The only public opponent to homosexual ordination and marriage in the moderator's election was the Rev. Bill Teng, a pastor from Heritage Presbyterian Church in Alexandria, Virginia.
Writing in a release prior to the assembly, Rev. Teng voiced his concerns over churches leaving the Presbyterian Church USA: "there needs to be someone who could stand up and remind our church what its primary calling is, and that is to go back to the basics, to put our emphasis on mission and evangelism."
Rev. Teng received 35 percent of the vote on the second ballot, while Rev. Reyes-Chow received 55 percent.
According to the Philadelphia Bulletin, PCUSA lost 46,544 members between 2005 and 2006.
The above article is reposted with permission from the Catholic News Agency.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1644 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 07:03 pm |
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| Wow. I'm not surprised in the slightest, though, as this is the fashionable zeitgeist.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Free
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 208 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 07:19 pm |
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This is the trend I saw when I returned to PCUSA as an adult. In a Sunday School class, the minister said he wasn't convinced that homosexuality was a sin, and from the pulpit he said that it is only in the Old Testament the homosexuality is seen as sinful. After I left, some of the ladies of the church got involved in a support movement for P-Flag (sp.?) which promote homosexual/lesbian lifestyles.
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tedjenczewski
Member
| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 262 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 01:18 am |
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| PCUSA has forgotten the teaching of the old testament, the teaching of St. Paul, and the entire tradition of the Church on sexual behavior in and out of marraige. So much for "sola scriptura". This must be what they call "the clear and easily understood meaning of scripture" and the truth of "individual concience" in interpreting scripture.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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rbo4u2
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 453 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 03:23 am |
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tedjenczewski wrote:
PCUSA has forgotten the teaching of the old testament, the teaching of St. Paul, and the entire tradition of the Church on sexual behavior in and out of marraige. So much for "sola scriptura". This must be what they call "the clear and easily understood meaning of scripture" and the truth of "individual concience" in interpreting scripture.
Not all PCUSA churches thankfully. I'll wade in here briefly while I have time. I know our church is not happy with the votes at the general assembly. One of the reasons it has stayed in the PCUSA is simply to be a light shining in the darkness of unbelief. I don't know how much longer we can do that. Although, truthfully, none of us believe the various local assemblies will ever agree and pass the said resolutions. It seems the general assembly is totally out of touch with the local churches. But, the other side is slowly eroding our base year by year.
I know our church will never accept the resolution. Not by a long shot. Our stand is pretty much similar with the Catholic stand. We love the gays, but we teach the act of homosexuality is sin. We are firmly in the pro husband and wife column. That will not change.
So, there is some hope. Well, I'll go back in my lurking office. I can't even respond from work anymore. They have cut off forums totally and my time at home is also limited. I'm still on my journey and love you all.
Keep praying.
Rich
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left coast mystic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 10th, 2008 |
| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
| Posts: | 131 |
| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 03:41 am |
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Rich -
When we were at First Pres San Mateo in the 80's & 90s we would pray and fast during General Assemblies (as well as sending conservative delegates) with the hope that we could "be a light". We fought a rearguard action, and every year we could see the foundations eroding more and more. I doubt that it will be long before the PCUSA joins the Episcopal Church in America & the others in giving in to current cultural mores.
BTW, I pray for you nightly. I'm glad to see that you're still here, even as a lurker.
Marcee
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Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1233 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 04:47 am |
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rbo4u2 wrote:
I'm still on my journey and love you all.
Keep praying.
Rich
Praying for you every day, Rich. Every day.
Grace and peace,
Becky
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"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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BeProf
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 75 |
| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 12:55 pm |
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Nothing the PCUSA does surprises me anymore.
Of all the mainline protestant denominations they were the among first to start fragmenting into "conservative" and "liberal" factions. Various fundamentalist groups split off in the 20s. Most recently, Francis Schaeffer, R.C. Sproul, and D. James Kennedy led the evangelical exodus out of the PCUSA and into the PCA.
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EMarshallBuckles
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 622 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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http://confessingchurch.homestead.com/
There is a Presbyterian organization called "The Confessing Church" which holds that sexual activity is only appropriate between one man and one woman in a marriage relationship. I certainly would urge any congregations who agree with that to consider becoming members of the "Confessing Church" organization.
Also, here in the good ol' Commonwealth of Virginia, we have a state (well, Commonwealth actually, we are a Commonwealth) constitution amendment, passed by our very rigorous constitutional amendment process which says that marriage is ONLY between one man and one woman and no other form of marriage or unions are recognized PERIOD, end of discussion (except for rants and whines from homosexual groups - and, even if the majority of people in Virginia were willing, which they are NOT, it would take YEARS to get the amendment rescinded just like it took years, through our rigourous process, to get the amendment passed). So, I can only suggest to homosexuals that if they want marriage, which most really don't, this homosexual marriage business is just a means of trying to shove acceptance of homosexuality down people's throats, that they move to England or the Netherlands or up to Massachusetts (yo', 'sup Steve dawg!  ). Further, Marshall said, warming to his subject, the Fairfax Circuit Court held that local churches of any denomination CAN leave a denomination AND retain their property. Of course, this will probably be appealed and will remain in the courts for YEARS, however, that is where it stands now. And, please, don't blame me , ah didn't do it, blame our Virginia founders, but you'll have to wait until you see them in heaven to do that. Meanwhile, have some cake and hot chocolate! 
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5350 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 09:04 pm |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote: Also, here in the good ol' Commonwealth of Virginia, we have a state (well, Commonwealth actually, we are a Commonwealth) constitution amendment, passed by our very rigorous constitutional amendment process which says that marriage is ONLY between one man and one woman and no other form of marriage or unions are recognized PERIOD, end of discussion (except for rants and whines from homosexual groups - and, even if the majority of people in Virginia were willing, which they are NOT, it would take YEARS to get the amendment rescinded just like it took years, through our rigourous process, to get the amendment passed).
It would take the citizenry years. It would only take a federal judge a few minutes.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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EMarshallBuckles
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 622 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Sat Jul 12th, 2008 04:26 am |
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CajunRick wrote: It would only take a federal judge a few minutes.
In some states, yes, it probably would take only a few minutes. However, when I worked for the U.S. Court of Appeals as a Deputy Clerk, I was aware that in some Federal Circuits, they tend to not interfere with state law in various cases. Federal Judges are powerful in some matters but largely unable to control other matters. Trying to interfere with Virginia's laws and constitution in these matters would be extremely difficult for them to do. Virginia is a "tough nut to crack", so to speak. And, if they can be convinced to do so, Congress and state legislatures can trump the courts. There is already at least one bill and may be more bills which will be trying to define marriage, nationally, as between one man and one woman. As for the property case, while it might adversely affect the control of several denominations over their local churches, this particular law goes way, way back and is one of those which the federal government tends to leave in the control of the states. Even if it eventually got reversed, gonna take years and years very probably.
I think that some denominations, such as the Baptists and the Roman Catholics, are likely to grow and that some denominations, such as "THE Episcopal Church (formerly known as the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States of America - the new name really is a slap in the face of Roman Catholics and Roman Catholics really should protest that name, I feel), the Presbyterian Church USA, the Methodist Church among others are probably going to shrink down to next to nothing. I am hopeful that our Heavenly Father will some how thwart the homosexual groups, neutralizing them before they do any more damage to our nation. 
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Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 930 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jul 13th, 2008 04:54 am |
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Marshall, I'm still alive n' well. Up in the Federal District Court I worked for up in Boston, we had judges that worked at the speed of a Boston cabbie knowing he had a big tipper in the back seat. How else does one explain how Judge W. Arthur Garrity, an appointee of Ted Kennedy imposed busing in a city so tribal as to defy imagination.
As for the Presbys, and their recent spate of decisions to keep the Sexual Revolution alive and kicking, even if some of its victims have long been put to permanent rest via HIV/AIDS (the guillotine was much, much more humane, albeit given for much less amorous reasons) -- I have a hard time believing they're the same church founded by John Knox.
What the Presbys are doing by throwing out all the rules reminds me of the the year Connecticut dropped the 55 mph speed limit which nobody paid attention to in the first place. It only made a lot of otherwise bad drivers remain both dangerous and "honest." 
As usual, though -- fast people with fast ideas and fast hands under the sheets for lesser than divine purposes always leads to some kind of accident, unless they're normally heterosexual, legally married and are too burned out or tired after a day of wrangling with kids and life as they approach or chug through middle age.
Funny, odd or just plain goofy for the PCUSA to be moving even faster on throwing ALL the rules of the road out the book faster than their Episcy pals. And yet my past Episcy neighbor and good friend joked that she belonged to the "frozen chosen." Compared now to the PCUSA, she might have a point. And that's some doing! 
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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