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EMarshallBuckles
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 616 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 03:07 am |
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Well, I would imagine that the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia officials are probably having "hissy fits" about now! Of course, they will probably appeal to the Supreme Court of Virginia and, if possible, to the Supreme Court of the United States, however, for the time being the churches leaving them have won a major victory which could possibly be upheld on appeal. Also, while, right now, I am not aware of any Catholic Churches which might want to break away, if, just for sake of discussion, that ever happened, I wonder how this ruling would affect them? Anybody have any comments?
Please also kindly see the following:
Virginia Judge: Church Secession Law is Constitutional
June 27, 2008 4:34 PM EDT
RICHMOND, Va. - Eleven conservative Episcopal churches won a legal victory Friday when a circuit court judge upheld a Virginia law allowing congregations to vote to secede from their parent denominations.
The conservative church members invoked the law to split from the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia after disagreements over the role of homosexuals in the church. Those churches seek to take tens of millions of dollars in property with them. But the diocese says it's entitled to the property and has a right to settle church disputes without state interference.
In a 49-page ruling, Circuit Judge Randy Bellows of Fairfax found that the state law breaks no rules governing the separation of church and state.
The Virginia lawsuit has been closely watched as two of Virginia's oldest and wealthiest Episcopal churches are among those leaving: Truro Church in Fairfax and The Falls Church in Falls Church both trace their history to colonial times. But Friday's ruling was expected to have limited impact outside Virginia because each state is governed by its own property laws.
Conservative church members praised the ruling even as appeals are expected.
"We have maintained all along that our churches' own trustees hold title for the benefit of these congregations," said Jim Oakes, vice chairman of the Anglican District of Virginia.
The denominational strife dates largely to the 2003 consecration of the first openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire. The denomination has adopted a general acceptance of gays. That has rankled the conservative minority within the Episcopal Church, the U.S. branch of the 77 million-member world Anglican Communion.
The dispute has revolved around interpretations of Virginia's so-called Division Statute.
The 1867 law passed was intended to help Southern congregations after the Civil War become independent from parent denominations in the North, according to William Hurd, the diocese's lawyer.
The law lets a state court determine whether a division exists within a denomination and gives a congregation the right to disaffiliate itself and retain its property.
The conservatives argue the law justifies their departure and claims to the property.
But diocese leaders counter that the congregations hold the property in trust and it belongs to the greater denomination. They argue the law constitutes state interference in church matters.
"We continue to believe that this Division Statute is clearly at odds with and uniquely hostile to religious freedom," said Henry D.W. Burt II, secretary of the Diocese of Virginia.
Several Virginia churches began voting in 2006 to part ways with the denomination. In January 2007, Episcopalian leaders ended negotiations and announced plans to pursue litigation.
Similar cases have emerged nationwide as the denomination struggles to remain united amid internal debate over the ordination of gays.
Many conservative parishioners have aligned with Nigeria's conservative Anglican Archbishop Peter Akinola, who created the Convocation of Anglicans in North America as a haven for disaffected congregations.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. Last edited on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 03:09 am by EMarshallBuckles
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Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 894 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 04:33 am |
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Man, when things start crumbling, they really crumble in some places!
Reminds me of a nearby parish (where many of my Irish ancestors first attended Mass here) in Holyoke, MA, and some recent locals who were adamant about keeping it up. Protest after protest occured, but one day a building instructor just happened to lean -- lean brother --against the (should I call it the "stern") and in moments, the whole wall crumbled and the rest of the place went with it.
The conservatives in the ECUSA had been warning everyone that the edifice was crumbling and in rapid fashion but the big whigs wouldn't listen until they pushed the envelop by electing lil' gene and his enabler kathy from that bastion of piety in the Nevada desert.
The TEC or ECUSA's starting to look more and more like a proverbial banana republic in constant turmoil and upheaval.  And even though Argentina isn't a banana republic, memories of Evita  make me think of Bishop Kathy doing a Madonna scene in the Washington National Cathedral. Yeah, but nobody's gonna be crying for that sorry lady no matter how well she tries to impersonate Madonna or the original Evita Patti Lupone over the soon to be bits n' pieces of what used to be a quite respectable denomination.
Now it's just a demonized body of radical Dems at prayer. 
The ultimate irony is that the real Anglicans in Virginia are seceding to the Africans to retain what's left of their old church. 
You must be feeling pretty good now knowing you won your second legal battle over secession. The first happening after the Civil War when it was ruled that secession wasn't against unconstitutional, despite what it took Lincoln and 600,000 casualties to settle it on the battlefields before that decision. Good thing the TEC's not reaching for its guns -- but that's another horror story for another night.
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Last edited on Sat Jun 28th, 2008 04:35 am by Steven Barrett
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5310 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 03:01 pm |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote:
Also, while, right now, I am not aware of any Catholic Churches which might want to break away, if, just for sake of discussion, that ever happened, I wonder how this ruling would affect them?
Not at all.
Protestant churches tend to be built and owned by their congregations, and operated as an independent corporation with a board of directors.
In the Catholic Church, the diocese is the corporate parent with the bishop as CEO. The individual parish churches belong to the diocese, not to the parish. Government is vested in the bishop through his "manager", the pastor.
Protestant congregations, for example, have the legal right to build a new church. Catholic congregations do not. Such decisions are made by the bishop.
So we're really talking about a completely different governing structure. That's also why in abuse cases, the diocese is the one being sued. The assets of the diocese include all the parish churches, so the Catholic Church does own a lot of real estate. That gives us big pockets, and makes us a prime target for litigators.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JasPax
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 240 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Jun 28th, 2008 09:49 pm |
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Hello:
If memory serves, each Episcopal parish once held their own deeds. At the 1979 general convention the delegates voted to have the bishop in each diocese collect and be the owner of the deeds. This was done becausae several parishes were breaking away over the issues of women's ordination, the revised Book of Common Prayer, and the general liberal trends.
There are many parishes that now regret that decision. I think the Virginia Court decision is unique. There are otheer state courts that have come to different conclusions.
Hey, they all need to come home to Holy Mother Church. They will never be settled until they do. Let's pray for that.
Perhaps getting out from under he Episcopal Church brings them a step closer. Many of us thought, in the 60's and 70's, that reunification could happen in our lifetime.
Steve B: I had an old History Prof. who said the civil war was fought over a verb. Prior to the war it was common to write, "The United Staes are." After the war, it became, "The United State is."
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 894 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 05:33 pm |
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Some are STILL fightin'!
PS: With apologies to that great Southern philosopher, "Rockin' Randall Hank, aka Bocephus" Williams, Jr.
"If Heaven ain't a lot like Dixie and ran like the TEC,
. . . Who'd a wanna go? "
They'd need some other "bishops" named Jack n' Jim up there if the TEC "ran" it.
Last edited on Sun Jun 29th, 2008 05:41 pm by Steven Barrett
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Michael2
Member
| Joined: | Thu Aug 7th, 2008 |
| Location: | South Shore, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 21 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | former Episcopalian -wife former Baptist-Episcopalian now both Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Aug 8th, 2008 04:41 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: Man, when things start crumbling, they really crumble in some places!
Reminds me of a nearby parish (where many of my Irish ancestors first attended Mass here) in Holyoke, MA, and some recent locals who were adamant about keeping it up. Protest after protest occured, but one day a building instructor just happened to lean -- lean brother --against the (should I call it the "stern") and in moments, the whole wall crumbled and the rest of the place went with it.
The conservatives in the ECUSA had been warning everyone that the edifice was crumbling and in rapid fashion but the big whigs wouldn't listen until they pushed the envelop by electing lil' gene and his enabler kathy from that bastion of piety in the Nevada desert.
The TEC or ECUSA's starting to look more and more like a proverbial banana republic in constant turmoil and upheaval. And even though Argentina isn't a banana republic, memories of Evita make me think of Bishop Kathy doing a Madonna scene in the Washington National Cathedral. Yeah, but nobody's gonna be crying for that sorry lady no matter how well she tries to impersonate Madonna or the original Evita Patti Lupone over the soon to be bits n' pieces of what used to be a quite respectable denomination.
Now it's just a demonized body of radical Dems at prayer.
The ultimate irony is that the real Anglicans in Virginia are seceding to the Africans to retain what's left of their old church.
You must be feeling pretty good now knowing you won your second legal battle over secession. The first happening after the Civil War when it was ruled that secession wasn't against unconstitutional, despite what it took Lincoln and 600,000 casualties to settle it on the battlefields before that decision. Good thing the TEC's not reaching for its guns -- but that's another horror story for another night.
Steven, Reaching for their gus is correct..In the case of TEC its MONEY...They still have a vast fortune granted in past years by faithful who today are probably rolling over in their graves, knowing what their money is being used for and by whom.....A woman Presiding Bishop and little ole' gene..(from Kentucky I might add) really describe the future of TEC at least in the USA.......
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"sic transit gloria mundi"
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