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CajunRick
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat May 10th, 2008 01:52 am |
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Archbishop Joseph Naumann of Kansas City has announced that Governor Kathleen Sebelius should not receive Communion because of her support for legal abortion.
The column appears in today's edition of the archdiocesan newspaper, The Leaven.
Abp. Naumann cites Sebelius' acceptance of campaign contributions from a notorious abortion provider, and her veto of a recent notification bill passed by the legislature.
Abp. Naumann's open letter to the people of his diocese can be found at http://www.theleaven.com/V29N37ColumnistNaumann.htm
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat May 10th, 2008 02:15 am |
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My first thought is I'm glad the good archbishop has taken a public stand not just against abortion but to uphold the sanctity of the Eucharist. It would be great to see a good discussion on this in the media.
My second thought is, are there many precedents of people being denied the Eucharist?
Thirdly, the democratic party will not support candidates who are pro-life. It is a plank in their platform, it is largely what has made them the liberals they are now. Should would-be catholic politicians go republican or go home?
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Sat May 10th, 2008 06:12 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: Should would-be catholic politicians go republican or go home?
 Oh, why, YES, of COURSE!! They SHOULD join the Republican Party and vote Republican too!!  Heh, heh! [NOTE: this "commerical" was brought to you by Marshall who is, by the way, a Member of the Hanover County, Virginia Republican Committee and this endorsement in no way reflects the policies of Coming Home Forums although Marshall thinks that they oughta vote Republican too!  Those of you who are NOT Republicans can always pray for me, however, it probably won't make any difference in my case, ha, ha  , however, Jesus loves me anyway!] Attachment: GodBlesstheGOP.jpg (Downloaded 88 times)
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat May 10th, 2008 02:54 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote: are there many precedents of people being denied the Eucharist?
As the good archbishop indicated, he first advised her privately not to receive communion; he only went public when she defied his private adminition. We have no idea how many have been denied communion in similar circumstances because even formal excommunications are usually handled privately.
Thirdly, the democratic party will not support candidates who are pro-life.
That actually isn't true. My congressman, Charles Melancon, of the third district of Louisiana, has a pro-life voting record on issues involving abortion, parental notification, military funding for abortions, etc., although he has voted with the party to support embryonic stem cell research. The National Right to Life Committee lists him at 42%, but three of the seven votes they consider significant are on the same bill, and a fourth involves prescription drugs for Medicare recipients, so I don't think it's an accurate reflection.
As with any political party, the Democrats will expect their members to support key party positions such as the bill involving stem cell research. I think the NRLC's choice to list three different votes on the same bill skews the percentages, so I would rank him at closer to 80% pro-life, which is really good for a Democrat. Our liberal Democrat senator, Mary Landrieu, gets a 66% from NRLC because they only count the stem cell research bill once.
At any rate, I didn't and can't vote for Melancon or Landrieu because, IMHO, a vote for either of them is a vote for the pro-abortion leadership of the Democrat party, and that's the reason I changed my voter registration in the first place. When I ran for public office I couldn't put the word "Democrat" on the ballot next to my name, and know that my filing fee would help to support pro-abortion Democrat candidates.
Anyone who would like to check out their representatives voting records on life issues can go to http://capwiz.com/nrlc/home/ .
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JasPax
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
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Posted: Sat May 10th, 2008 05:27 pm |
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Good for Abp. Naumann. Now, we can only hope that the Bishop in Speaker Pelosi's home Diocese has also given her a privaye warning and will have the courage to warn her publically if she doesn't obey.
I find it difficult to understand how Catholic voters can now vote for anyone in the pro-abortion party. I know that historically, most Catholics voted for the democrat party - but that was before abortion became their most cherished position.
I am proud to say that, without naming names or parties, our Bishop sent out a pastoral letter urging Catholics to use their citizenship rights to support life.
God's Blessings,
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 12:08 am |
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I fully understand and applaud Archbishop Naumann's call for the Kansas governor to (more or less it seems) excommunicate herself by refraining from receiving Communion. From reading his column in The Leaven, it's clear his patience was exhausted. And, no doubt, he's going to face a lot of heat and praise for his action. Hopefully more of the latter.
An Archbishop's gotta do what an Archbishop's gotta do, and if that means using his pastoral staff to knock on the guv's door and conscience, well, that's not only within his right, but also his duty as a Good Shepherd.
Admittedly, it'll be a humorous irony to see otherwise staunch Protestants who'd normally be voicing furious fulminations and displays of jingoistic outrage against this "'hierling' (my pun intended) of a foreign potentate, and not just any potentate's" interference in our domestic politics" jumping on behalf of the prelate's side, while liberal Catholics are wresting and wringing their hands, not to mention whatever happened to their American Catholic Church. (They might want to review the reigns of Leo XIII and Pius X and John Paul II, not forgetting a then-Cardinal Ratzinger during the past century to figure this out. If they're still having difficulty, they can always start with the words Americanist and Modernist heresies.)
Governor Kathleen Sebelius, a Democrat, and possible Vice Presidential nominee, clearly went over the line. And she had to have know it. It's one thing for a governor, as well as a president, to grudgingly admit that she or he can't just abrogate both state and federal Constitutions simply because a law or ruling doesn't suit his or her conscience--or worse, career survival tactics.
Although I question some of former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush's death warrants, the man was acting within his informed conscience to the best of his ability in a way that neither violated both his Lord's laws nor the State of Florida's.
Sibelius' actions, and her willingness to carry the pro-abortion lobby's water buckets in her state left her without any such cover. Had she played her cards smarter (and more ethically in the eyes of both God and her Church), not to mention what might become a very disgruntled public when they realize just how far over the line she jumped to promote her views and arrogant disdain for the Church and all Kansans, she might've even avoided her confrontation with Abp. Naumann.
If Sen. Obama picks any candidate for vice president whose political conduct makes she or he a major liability, he's going to have to answer to his party, and nation, especially if Sen. McCain gets in by virtual default and (hopefully not) demonstrate himself to be a terrible president. One never knows: Nobody thought Nixon would've pulled himself down like he did. Nobody, even worst enemies. (Sadly, I think despite McCain's hatred of torture, he's got a lot of Nixon in him.)
Obama's got to ask himself now if he can afford another John Kerry as his running mate. Hopefully the Archbishop's action will help kill her chances.
But, there still remains the problem of so many loyal, dedicated Catholics who are Democrats and have been for many years because they remember how badly the GOP treated their ancestors, especially immigrant ancestors, through their mean-spirited attempts to thwart any social safety-net programs that kept many of out of the poorhouse. Just look at the way they're handling this mortgage foreclosure crisis today. And look at the way they've continually attracted people who've gone out of their way to undermine and eventually KILL social security, medicaid and medicare for every one of us.
Many of us Democrats hate abortion, just hate it with a passion. And there are also many good Democrats who do the best they can to try and steer their party away from it. While we have a long, very long, way to go, for some reason or another I can see some cracks and possibly, we might just be able to get our message across. Obama's going to owe Sen. Bob Casey "big time," and many other Democrats. But we're never, in at least my lifetime, going to succeed in seeing the day when both parties will be proactively anti-abortion in practice as well as rhetoric if we abandon our party in favor of a party whose real record, save for the placement of Justices Scalia, Roberts, Thomas and Alito on the Supreme Court, has been dismal at best, rank deadly hypocritical at worst.
Frankly, I'd rather take my mortgage money and use it at Mohegan Sun than take my chances on funding efforts to get anyone on the Supreme Court because who knows how a justice might rule, especially if he or she's very big on maintaining a slavish devotion to precedent. Even Scalia could turn on us if one day he was presented with a precedent tieing his hands because of his devotion to precedent over what he likes to deride as "judicial activism." In case anyone hasn't noticed lately, African Americans in the South can enjoy the same rights and educational opportunities as their fellow Black Americans outside of the old Jim Crow states because of "judicial activism." Are we really willing to settle for the old "the constitution is a dead" document notion? Is that what all those soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan died for? The Koran's a dead document, too. It's been dead since the seventh century!
I simply got tired, very sick and tired, of having my hopes for a truly anti-abortion nation, taken to the cleaners every time the GOP got around to working the issue and displayed its true colors. And they couldn't have been displayed more clearly than during the Reagan years, and especially the Contract for (or actually on) America revolt led by Newt Gingrich in 1994. I can't count the number of calls I got from people for congressional candidates (from out of state, no less!) asking for support because even though they were also (this is a beaut!) "pro-life" -- but they were also going to roll the "welfare system back and make the government more accountable to the taxpayer for his dollars." (Fr. Corapi has a nice phrase I want to borrow in describing such notions: "happy horsemanure." May I add, candied road apples.)
First of all, if I ever again hear the words "fiscal accountability" used in connection with legislative programs designed to kill the social safety net, it'll be too early, way much too early. Secondly, these programs that the GOP had on their execution list were the very programs many young pregnant moms needed so badly to count on when their babies would be born. Barney Frank, (D-MA) was right when he said many conservative prolifers were prolife from conception to birth, after that, "you're on your own baby." Had Pres. Clinton not stood up to both Gingrich and his fellow executioner of social programs, Robert Livingston, (R-LA) who stood up in a C-Span televised session of Congress during the budget hearings and pulled a Nikita Kruschev-like performance by banging on his committee's table saying the "revolution is now" while calling for the gutting of the New Deal and other social safety net programs. (Had I been in the Oval Office, Gingrich & Livingston would've been reminded at least of Andrew Jackson's plans for the nullifiers and/or Ft. Monroe for Jefferson Davis for their outright treason in shutting down the government just so the wealthy could pocket more money at the expense of the poor.
Now, what about the millions of us Catholics who are also Democrats, who, if we sit this out and by default risk allowing a GOP controlled and veto-proof Congress to join McCain. Should we be forced to choose voluntary excommunication and allow a party to trash the very social programs that have indeed proven to have saved millions of otherwise aborted babies take over lock, stock and barrel? Should we sit back and allow the same party to destroy our social security and other necessary old-age programs while they save their inheritance tax breaks, off-shore tax break scams, and other rippoffs.
Should we risk allowing these same Pharisees who speak of getting rid of their mythological bogeyman of the onerous federal government "off their backs" so they can allow their buddies to line their pockets even thicker while not lifting a finger to actually help the people they say they want to help live, the unborn, not to mention help their parents afford to bring these kids through to life? I'm not saying this to excuse abortion, but it's happening and will continue happening in even greater numbers again if we gut the very programs that (ironically enough, Bill Clinton) barely managed to salvage from the Republican safety-net ripping machine. And for that scoundrel Gingrich to appear at the Pope's WH reception! What was Bush's people thinking? There's one _-_-_ I would've had the WH police unceremoniously dump right on the street.
While I agree that elected officials, especially at the excutive levels, who are Catholics and say they're loyal across the board Catholics, need to rethink some things over. And it's both the Magisterium's right and duty to call upon them to remember where all authority comes from, I'm not sure it's going to be in the best interest of pursuing the Church's goal of ending abortion and embryonic stem-cell research, plus other parts of the culture of death if the Church allows us to start turning in on ourselves much like this country did during the Mitchell Red Hunting days of 1919, the Nixon-McCarthy red-hunting days of the late forties and early fifties, and the Nixon-John Mitchell Watergate frenzy, followed by the liberals' version that turned against our intelligence gathering institutions in Watergate's wake.
Inquisitions, finger pointing, weeding outs, and more divisions will only reduce our ranks and effectiveness. If we want to really end abortion, our focus has to lie on prayer, unity of purpose and focus, and putting our efforts into making sure our legislative branches across the country start working in our favor. Without the truly pro-life pols who'll enact a full pro-life agenda, and fully appropriate the funds necessary to ensure that no child is sacrificed to abortion for any reason, we're just kidding ourselves.
Please read this link from a reliable source to see where I'm coming from on this. Maybe I'm wrong on this, and I hope not. I don't believe for a moment that all Republicans are skinflints and Democrats walk on water when it comes to helping the poor moreso than the GOP. Hardly and I only need to point to the so-called "Blue Dog Democrats" to prove this. If any group, besides those associated with Republican Grover Norquist's tax-dodger's lobby fits the bill of Wm. F. Buckley's description of "fiscal conservative/social liberals" as being tight-fisted/loose on morals, it's this bunch of mangy low-d "democratic" junkyard dawgs.
For those of us who are registered Democrats, don't despair, and remember that it was FDR who save this nation through the implementation of so many New Deal programs, Social Security, that were the products of Catholic Social Teaching constructed written up by Monsignor Charles Ryan and put into law by Frances Perkins, a "very high-church" Episcopalian who was also our first female cabinet secretary (Labor) which she headed from 1933 to 1945. We must always be socially responsible Catholics, Americans, & Democrats--in that order--and that means being the "happy warrior(s)" always finding ways to truly strangle abortion and the culture of death without allowing ourselves to become disenfranchised by our own rush to clean house through circular firing squads so often favored by idiotlogues.
Maybe, (to be fair to those who sincerely disagree with me on this issue) I'll admit, unashamedly though, to being greatly influenced by my mother and grandmother, both of whom voted almost in "bullet-ballot" fashion whenever a New Deal Democrat was running or a woman. A few months before she died, she shared this with me because she saw me getting on an ideological high-horse. Okay, it's Mother's Day, and I'll admit this is unfair, but how could I, or anyone, then, take on a person who (along with my grandmother, who was taken care of by the Sisters of Providence when she was too little to be left at home by my great grandfather and grand uncles while they worked for pennies a day for the blue-bloods' in their factories located in my family's ancestral "home town" of Holyoke, MA.)
These women took no back seats or guff from anybody when it came to being devoted to their Church. Not for a second. But they also knew first hand what women went through during much tougher times and if and when it came down to the choice between a Democratic woman candidate and whomever else, it was the former who got their automatic votes. Period, no questions or arguments.
While I've been wonderfully blessed to have the friendship of fine and loyal prolife activists, many of whom have saved hundreds and thousands of otherwise aborted babies through quiet and effective means, of which I'm not at liberty to divulge. If you've done any work in prolife movement, and I'm not speaking of the more rhetorically-charged political arena, you know what I mean.)
But on the other hand, I've also been blessed beyond measure to have enjoyed the friendship and kindnesses shown to me and my family when we (were really down for the count on several occasions) by several pro-choice women who were also Catholics. They never once attempted to change my opinion on the issue through their kindnesses, which invariably seemed to have come after some of our more "energetic discussions" on the issue. They demonstrated their Christian kindnesses because of what was inside them as true persons of God, no matter how some of us might view their politics, (or my mom's) on this issue.
There are too many of us who are equally concerned about this issue, albeit from a perspective we highly disagree with, to risk losing (permanently and angrily) to sitting it out, or joining with the other side, esp. a side that hasn't truly lived up to its lofty rhetoric.
[url=http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=041013 / 5]http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=041013#5[/url]
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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JillD
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| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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Posted: Thu May 15th, 2008 10:20 pm |
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My husband just sent me a You Tube video of a song that names all these famous Lutherans. (He's still Lutheran.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=102kvQ1dWoY
As the music and lyrics rolled along, it began to mention the names of some state governors and then got to the "governor of Kansas." Stop the tape!! I compared her picture on the YouTube with a google image and it's the same gal. So, she's a convert. That's weird. Aren't converts often pretty orthodox Catholics since it usually takes so much work and stress to get over here?
Why'd she become Catholic if she's so wishy-washy on a foundational belief like abortion?
It would be interesting to hear HER conversion testimony....
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Ali
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Posted: Fri May 16th, 2008 11:04 am |
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JillD wrote: So, she's a convert. That's weird. Aren't converts often pretty orthodox Catholics since it usually takes so much work and stress to get over here?
Why'd she become Catholic if she's so wishy-washy on a foundational belief like abortion?
It would be interesting to hear HER conversion testimony....
Perhaps it was politically expedient for her to convert. I hate being so cynical of people, and I am no way judging her. But people often do things because they think others expect it of them, and not for the right reasons.
Ali
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 16th, 2008 12:00 pm |
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Ali wrote: JillD wrote: So, she's a convert. That's weird. Aren't converts often pretty orthodox Catholics since it usually takes so much work and stress to get over here?
Perhaps it was politically expedient for her to convert.
Often, those who come into the Church from a Protestant background do so believing they can pick and choose doctrine as they have done in their prior churches. Unless the RCIA program is really orthodox, it may well encourage that belief.
Many of the people here have had much stress over their decisions, but that is often not the case. Many people convert simply because they are marrying a Catholic and never really get into the doctrine at all.
Sad, but true.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri May 16th, 2008 02:21 pm |
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 You have a great point there Rick, all of you do on this one. I wish I knew she was a convert. Instead of just saying "she clearly went over the line," I'm ready to add pole-vaulted, flew, you name it.
No matter how wishy washy the RCIA instructor might've been, it's hard to escape the fact that Catholicism takes abortion pretty seriously.
Even though Sibelius is the governor of Kansas, she's not in Lake Wobegon anymore. 
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 16th, 2008 04:58 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: No matter how wishy washy the RCIA instructor might've been, it's hard to escape the fact that Catholicism takes abortion pretty seriously.
Obviously I am not trying to defend her stance in any way, but to many people, the Church's position on abortion affects their personal choices (such as whether to have an abortion themselves) but they do not believe it affects their public policy choices (like how to vote or whether to sign a bill). Opinion polls indicate that the majority of Catholics would not seek an abortion but have no problem voting for pro-abortion candidates, and really wouldn't work for a human life amendment to the Constitution. Sad, but true.
Even though Sibelius is the governor of Kansas, she's not in Lake Wobegon anymore.
Maybe not, but does she know it?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 18th, 2008 12:02 am |
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A most interesting letter appeared in this week's Zenit letters issue:
Courage and Clarity
A response to: Prelate Asks Governor to Forgo Eucharist
Thank God for the courage and clarity of Archbishop Naumann and his fellow bishops in Kansas.
I would suggest that his next letter to the governor begin: "I am personally opposed to excommunication, but ...."
Father Greg Adolf
St. Andrew the Apostle Parish
The above article is reposted with permission from Zenit.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 05:21 am |
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What's in those buttermilk biscuits Keillor loves to sing about. Maybe it's done something to her mind, which doesn't seem to be "in Kansas anymore."  (Or Rome.)
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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