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Prodigal Daughter
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| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 09:54 pm |
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Possibly the most well known re-vert to this date! Francis Beckwith well known author and president of the Evangelical Theological Society has jumped the Tiber and left a rippling effect in the blogosphere that will probably rival the conversion of Thomas Howard in 1985. Catholics are rejoicing and Fundamentalists are mourning as one of the great thinkers of 21st century evangelicalism has returned home.
Check out the following link to learn more about Dr. Beckwith and send him a note of welcome home to the Church of his youth.
http://www.francisbeckwith.com
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 10:36 pm |
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Prodigal Daughter wrote: Francis Beckwith well known author and president of the Evangelical Theological Society has jumped the Tiber
Thanks for the heads-up. I've posted a welcome, and an invitation for him to join us here. I would encourage you all to do the same.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 11:47 pm |
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For those who would like a little background on Dr. Beckwith, I suggest they start at this comment by James Akin. He has some links to follow, and they in turn lead to other very interesting links. This is especially true of the one to James White’s website, which in turn links to a board post by Beckwith followed by some rather astounding comments by a number of erudite Protestants.
Meanwhile, let us also ponder this news of Bill Cork returning to the Adventism of his childhood, which I gleaned from the aforementioned Protestant comments. I remember the day Bill converted to Catholicism (he had formerly been a Lutheran pastor). Subsequently he found employment with the Diocese (now Archdiocese) of Houston-Galveston. He was a member of the CHN Forum (the old forum), and I remember him as a true thinker and scholar.
David
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 04:59 pm |
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Rick
I'm going to go ahead and invite Mr. Beckwith to our forum too. I was reading through some of the comments on his web-site last night, I could certainly see where this very courages man could use some support or maybe his wife too.
I've not read his writings, but would certainly love to read some.
PD: thankyou for starting this topic, I believe this family needs our prayers.
Thanks for the heads-up. I've posted a welcome, and an invitation for him to join us here. I would encourage you all to do the same.
Rick/David; sorry for my double posting, I should have looked further.
Betty
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"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 05:50 pm |
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BettyBoopToo wrote: Rick/David; sorry for my double posting, I should have looked further.
No problem. I locked the other thread just to avoid having two separate conversations started.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 06:01 pm |
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Ok guy's
I'm feeling a bit silly, I thought it would be easy to sign up for a blogg site, but I've never done it before.
could someone PM me and just direct me to the directions. I've clicked on every thing on the site trying to figure it out and none so far have taken me to sign up.
thanks BG
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 06:17 pm |
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BettyBoopToo wrote: could someone PM me and just direct me to the directions. I've clicked on every thing on the site trying to figure it out and none so far have taken me to sign up.
I'm doing this publicly so others will know as well.
There is no need to sign up. On the page with Dr. Beckwith's post, scroll down to the bottom of the page and you'll see a place to add your comments. They will not go online until approved by the site moderator.
It's at the bottom of this page.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 08:19 pm |
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Thank You Rick
I guess I was thinking that I was the only one using the internet that didn't understand the blog stuff.
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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brian
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 12:06 am |
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I am excited about this news, but I want to avoid being too excited or excited for the wrong reasons. I wish he found a better way to say he was cming back into the church than saying: "Given these considerations, I thought it wise for me to err on the side of the Church with historical and theological continuity with the first generations of Christians that followed Christ’s Apostles."
Is he just trying to be charitable? It sounds like he is saying that there is no right answer but if he has to be as close to truth as possible he will side with Rome knoing that there are probably some faults with it? I do not want to be one to criticize, but why not come out and see he believes that that it is the most likely possibility of truth, or that he affirms what the church teaches? To err on the side of something sounds like saying: 'well this is the best I can probably do and is probably the closest to being accurate'
Or does err mean something else, or was he just trying to put it nicely and not sound too dogmatic. I mean, he is obviously extremely intelligent.
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 12:23 am |
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Recall, Brian, that Dr. Beckwith is a university professor (Baylor) and is speaking in academic terms. One never, in academia, comes right out and says, “This is the truth. Believe it.” No one will accept it, because human science is by definition uncertain. Furthermore, most of his readership is non-Catholic, and it is only considerate to emolliate one’s language to suit their sensitivities.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 12:30 am |
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brian wrote: I am excited about this news, but I want to avoid being too excited or excited for the wrong reasons. I wish he found a better way to say he was cming back into the church than saying: "Given these considerations, I thought it wise for me to err on the side of the Church with historical and theological continuity with the first generations of Christians that followed Christ’s Apostles."
I admit I didn't like his choice of words either, but I took them at face value. I think he was saying that his choice was to accept the beliefs of the Protestant reformers or of the early Fathers. He admitted that he is not certain of his decision (the confession of a skeptic), but he felt the proper course of action in his case is to unite himself with the Early Church and the continuity of faith rather than with the Protestant side of things.
It may well be that there are still areas of the Catholic faith that he questions. I don't think any of us can say that we all are 100% happy with everything that has ever happened in the Church, even in our own lifetimes. Many of his former Evangelical colleagues will tell him he's wrong (many already have), so he's diffused their criticism in advance by saying if he's going to be wrong, it will be by standing with the first generations of Christians who followed Christ's apostles, and by their successors in faith. By making this statement, he has flatly stated that today's Protestant Christians are not in unity with the early Church, and he has, in effect, issued a challenge to all evangelicals to examine the basis of their own faiths.
Or does err mean something else, or was he just trying to put it nicely and not sound too dogmatic.
Yes, I do think part of his choice of words is an attempt not to throw evangelicalism back into the faces of his former colleagues. He also indicates that the reasons for his return should be plain to everyone who simply studies the writings of the early Church.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 04:51 am |
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Interesting questions brian, I had pondered his initial response this afternoon too, I came to the point of believing he felt for many reasons that his response at this point had to be a very careful well thought out One.
I'm always elated for all our separated christians that find their way back to the church Christ establised, But I believe Mr. Beckwith has a particularly difficult position knowing where he's come from and the positions he's held.
I'm hoping that he'll come and visit with us all, not that I think he's going to give us the full scoop (so to speak) but I'd also wanted to invite his wife and offer her our friendship,charity & support to her too. I imagine their's some difficult times for her being married to such a well known gentleman in the evangelical protestant world, I just pray that the lord give them both the additianal strength and graces they'll be needing on this journey of faith.
Maybe he'll write an article or book that we'll all be able to read when some time passes and he's a bit more at ease in his shiney new catholic shoes. I would just imagine that his shoes are a little to tight as of yet and he'll be able to relax and share once they loosen up.
God Bless
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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brian
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 05:14 am |
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Good responses, and I know what you mean, David. I did not think he should have said 'this is truth believe it.' Simply I wondered if their was a more confident way to say that he did in fact believe it. And I was wondering if it does imply that he believes it somewhat but maybe not entirely yet himself, which would be understandable, and I agree with what you said, Rick.
I am all for sounding as charitable and as respectable as possible, but I also think when you say you are 'reverting' and 'erring' in the same sentence, it seems like you are not so converted afterall. I am not thinking he should have said this is definitely true, simply that due to the evidence that he has decided it is what he believes and trusts in though he acknowledges the worthiness of the critical views against it.
I would not say that since Jesus rose from the dead and because of A, B and C and some other God did not match the bill that I will 'err' on the side of Christianity. I would neither decare that I know I am definitely right and everyone else is wrong. I would say that I believe it is true and acknowledge that other intelligent people see it in a different light.
This is essentially what he did say, and I like the way you explained it Rick.
If anything I love the humilty and charity it shows and do not claim to know any better, and would not have come up with anything better. He has my support. I just found that sentence to sound on the weak side. To me there is a weak and too friendly track. A healthy balanced respectful and charitable medium. And an extreme alienating offensive track. I think that maybe while the post as a whole was right on that perfect middle mark, that that one sentence could have been more in the middle. It could have been more positive without sounding offensive.
Brian
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 10:08 am |
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This was encouraging to me, I posted on his site asking him to pray for me, as I'm going through this, all be it a microcsim of his opposition. Most of you who are cradle catholics and have never left the church, don't understand the war that goes on in ones heart with reformation ideology burned into your thinking patterns, this is extremely difficult to overcome. So be grateful to God for bringing him this far and continue to pray for God's grace in this difficult road ahead for him!
I still have my doubts, I actually took it a step further than he did, I decided if the Catholic Church is wrong, I'd rather go to hell with the catholics, then embrace the God described in extreme reformed calvanism, I grew to hate that God!
Last edited on Wed May 9th, 2007 10:18 am by Candlemass
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TotusTuus
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Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 06:20 pm |
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Based upon his print interviews and on-line articles, Dr. Beckwith is a brilliant man who has the ability to do for Catholic philosophy and public policy what Scott Hahn has done for Catholic Biblical scholarship.
I hope that Marcus has him on "The Journey Home" soon!
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TTM!
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Serina
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Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 08:21 pm |
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Thanks Totus Tuus for taking the words right out of my mouth. I was thinking about Scott Hahn as well. I guess God knows we are needing a little help down here in the catholic arena, especially with all the anti-catholic spews. Is it just me or has anti-catholicism gotten worse?
I had to quit reading Akins page because of all the mean and hurtful prejudice remarks from protestants. I get so upset. Do the protestants really believe they know more about our catholic faith than we catholics do-they just throw things out there. I am starting to feel I am in a concentration camp, surrounded by Nazi's--I hate to say it but it is true!
____________________
Our Lady of Fatima said, "Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much. Those who serve God ought not to follow these fashions."
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 10:14 pm |
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Serina wrote: Do the protestants really believe they know more about our catholic faith than we catholics do
Yes, many of them actually believe that. Many of them believe that Catholics are not Christian, so when a Catholic can minister to them as a Christian, it throws them for a loop. That's why it's so important to follow the words of St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words when necessary."
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 11:07 pm |
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Serina wrote: I had to quit reading Akins page because of all the mean and hurtful prejudice remarks from protestants. I get so upset.
I had to quit reading it also. It's painful to see people who all profess to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ quibble and slander each other that way. Where are the peacemakers?
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TotusTuus
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Posted: Wed Jun 6th, 2007 01:06 am |
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I am a daily reader of Jimmy Akin's blog and I believe that he is a very bright man with some excellent posts. So even if you don't read the "peanut gallery" I still think he is worth a visit.
Jimmy has been on vacation and it does seem like the quality of the posts has really taken a dive. Also, the ankle biters have taken over the comboxes.
If you feel strongly about it please drop Jimmy an email and let him know how you feel. I sense that Jimmy, like Marcus, has a heart of gold ....
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Annie
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Posted: Wed Jun 6th, 2007 10:55 am |
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Candlemass wrote: I still have my doubts, I actually took it a step further than he did, I decided if the Catholic Church is wrong, I'd rather go to hell with the catholics, then embrace the God described in extreme reformed calvanism, I grew to hate that God!
I'm somewhat in this arena too. My problems are not doctrinal, etc. because I was from a more mainstream/skeptical background, mine are with the way the Church is run at the local and diocesan levels.
But here I am with the billion other people, hoping that the Important Church People take their vows seriously.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Jun 6th, 2007 09:25 pm |
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TotusTuus wrote: I am a daily reader of Jimmy Akin's blog and I believe that he is a very bright man with some excellent posts. So even if you don't read the "peanut gallery" I still think he is worth a visit.
I apologize if I sounded critical of Jimmy Akin. I too admire him and listen to him on catholic radio. I just don't like to hear (or read) a lot of the "going back and forth" of people who seem to fire scripture at each other like a weapon. Maybe it's called for sometimes, I don't know. One man's debate may be another man's squabble! I never knew there was so much disagreement going on until I became a Catholic and began to pay attention to the web and media concerning apologetics, etc. I must have been living in a cocoon. So many of you are living in situations with loved ones who don't understand and are giving you a hard time about your beliefs. I turn on the radio or surf the net and hear vile things about catholics, which now means me! It's a little daunting. I'm sorry for venting!
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 04:57 pm |
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I read all the replies on Beckwith's blog. I counldn't believe he allowed it to be open for so long, esp. with the "Whore of Babylon" comments. None of us know all the "ins" and "outs" for Beckwith's reversion. Having never been raised a Catholic, or any religion for that matter, I cannot help but wonder if something quite unique goes on within the psyche of a cradle Catholic gone prodigal. Perhaps some ground work has already been laid that makes the journey back to Catholicism easier or more convincing. If I look at Beckwith's decision to revert, it seems rather hasty. But whom am I to judge? I don't know all the workings and inner convictions that have taken place within his heart.
As for me, I cannot just jump the Tiber when I still have apprehensions. No doubt this hesitancy is due to my cult background. But not only that, I am one who is on a serious theological quest and I must have my questions answered. As an evangelical, I have always believed that I must make a defense for the hope that is within me. And this is no less true when it comes to Catholicism. In fact, for me it is even more true than ever. I cannot just say, "Well, holy mother Church says it, I believe it and that settles it." That is no better than the Bible thumping fundamentalists who say "The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it."
Get my drift. I must make decisions based on critical inquiry, reasoned analysis, proof texts, and conviction without doubt. Yes, I realize prayer is also a part of this process, which is perhaps the most important. But I will not and cannot detach my brain from the rest of my faculties and just jump without reservation.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Serina
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 05:20 pm |
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Hello Darlene,
I can tell you have been on quite a journey from your 'faith history', and of course still on that path of discernment. From the different faiths that you have experienced what has drawn you to Catholicism in the first place? You are not different from other converts who either come from other faith backgrounds or from no faith at all, as you feel a little leary of some of the teachings of the Catholic faith. My recommendation is to read 'Early Church Fathers'. Also, keep learning, keep reading, searching for the truth--Almighty God will help you in this process.
Even for myself as a Cradle catholic who did leave for 'a little bit', I honestly think it was because I did not know my Catholic faith, and also I did not know about other faiths (protestant) and what they practiced--after I left and went out to experience other religions I quickly realized they were all "pick-n-choose" faiths. If one thinks about it, these other religions started out as catholics, but because they did not WANT a certain part of what the catholics practiced, they decided to form their own faith by forming a BUFFET LINE. I quickly observed this, and CAME BACK HOME.
I honestly think we all are searching for the truth, and sometimes, even Cradle catholics do not realize that they have the truth staring them right in the face--I was one included. Totus Tuus.
____________________
Our Lady of Fatima said, "Certain fashions will be introduced which will offend Our Divine Lord very much. Those who serve God ought not to follow these fashions."
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 01:04 pm |
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Serina wrote:
Do the protestants really believe they know more about our catholic faith than we catholics do-they just throw things out there.
I had a friend ask me questions (in a loud screaming voice) based on her reading of an ex-nun. She said, "Why do you believe ABC?" , and when I said, "we don't believe that", she said, "Yes you do!". Then I asked her if she didn't think reading from all the nuns who BELIEVE might give her a more correct view of Catholic beliefs, and she said, "No!". I kid you not. She said she would trust this one ex-nun over many believing nuns. OK. And that's when I knew it wasn't ever going to be effective to "discuss" + she always got mad and then so did I.
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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