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Candlemass
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, RCC for life! |
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Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 02:44 am |
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| Hey Marcus, I was wondering if you've had, or plan to have, any guests on the program who have come out of these so called revivals such as Toronto, Pensicola, and now Lakeland?
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rbo4u2
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| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
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| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 08:47 pm |
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Candlemass wrote:
Hey Marcus, I was wondering if you've had, or plan to have, any guests on the program who have come out of these so called revivals such as Toronto, Pensicola, and now Lakeland?
All I heard out of that is that if the anointing for the Holy Spirit and healing is on you, you feel it in the kidneys. So if you have a pain in the kidneys, you've gone beyond the anointing. So pray for your/their kidneys if they are in the "anointing".
And all along I thought it was kidney stones.
sheesh....
I'm sorry. If any of you are enthralled with this nonsense, I apologize for taking it lightly. I've seen this stuff before and it just comes and goes with like gas pains.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 01:08 am |
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I was a part of a church that supported such........"ministry", I always questioned it, they didn't like me much! I will say some of those in that church really showed me the love of Christ, it just frustrated me that they believed such nonsence!  Last edited on Wed May 28th, 2008 01:09 am by Candlemass
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 03:07 pm |
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This is simply a further expansion of the "Kansas City Prophets" that began in the 1980's. I can't remember the exact dates. Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones..(no not of the college name) Paul Cain, Francis Frangipane and others began the "super prophet" movement which had it's fruits borne into the Vineyard fellowships, the Canadian laughing revival as well as others and now the Lakewood thing. Much harm has come from this group. Yes, many good, well meaning people have come to Christ from the partial truths in this movement, but far greater harm has happened as well.
It's amazing how mass hypnotism works in this stuff.
RichLast edited on Wed May 28th, 2008 03:07 pm by rbo4u2
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 09:57 pm |
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| Paul Cain and I believe a few others spoke at the church I used to attend, I didn't go when I found out who they were. Hank Hanegraaff's "Counrtfeit Revival" opened my eyes quite a bit to what was going on there. Last edited on Wed May 28th, 2008 09:57 pm by Candlemass
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Roaming Catholic
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| Location: | St. Catharines, Ontario Canada |
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 03:28 am |
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| I had the opportunity to visit the Toronto Airport Vineyard when this whole thing broke out in Canada. Even though I had spent many years in charismatic and Pentecostal circles, I still saw some pretty strange things. However, what puzzled me most was that some people I got to know who got the shakes and experienced some of the other strange phenomena at these meetings came to have a deep hunger for Scripture and prayer subsequent to their experience. One of my profs at seminary explained that it was clear the Holy Spirit seemed to genuinely work in peoples' lives through these meetings, but it was a shame the people couldn't separate these humanly- and psychologically-generated shenanigans from what the Holy Spirit was wanting to do. I guess it just shows we can't put limits on when and how God will work even though it doesn't fit within our box of understanding.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 03:12 pm |
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Roaming Catholic wrote:
I had the opportunity to visit the Toronto Airport Vineyard when this whole thing broke out in Canada. Even though I had spent many years in charismatic and Pentecostal circles, I still saw some pretty strange things. However, what puzzled me most was that some people I got to know who got the shakes and experienced some of the other strange phenomena at these meetings came to have a deep hunger for Scripture and prayer subsequent to their experience. One of my profs at seminary explained that it was clear the Holy Spirit seemed to genuinely work in peoples' lives through these meetings, but it was a shame the people couldn't separate these humanly- and psychologically-generated shenanigans from what the Holy Spirit was wanting to do. I guess it just shows we can't put limits on when and how God will work even though it doesn't fit within our box of understanding.
As I said in another stream, I'm reminded of Balaam's ass in the Old Testament. God will use any dumb ass to get his peoples attention.
Seriously, God ALWAYS responds to an honest searching heart. I agree, God will even use seemingly nonsense to stream the Holy Spirit to our hearts. And then the gentle but loving cattle prod of the Holy Spirit will attempt to poke us in the right direction until we work our way out of the mire of deception. I believe, even on this site, there are those who had their start in the slush of partial truth teaching, who are now pointed in the right direction and are being led openly by the Holy Spirit.
May God rescue all those who are honestly looking for the truth from these movements. May he also awaken those who have been led astray and shake the leaders awake to the destruction they are leaving in the wake of their heretical teachings.
Rich
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 05:43 pm |
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 What do you call a group of well-dressed (i.e. "dressed for $uccee$$") Christians handing out tracts in airports?
Hare Christians.
Okay, having shed my bad joke of the day, I do have a more grounded take on the revival stuff. It gets peoples' hopes up, (fine, if not not overdone or manipulated for selfish reasons), but then there's the follow-up work of taking spiritual care of the disillusioned when much of what they've come to pray so hard for goes "poof."
What never fails to amaze me is a consistent lack of necessary incredulity for these "revivals" (that are anything but spontaneously brought forth by the Holy Spirit.) Does the Holy Spirit make the reservations, set up the stadiums, concert halls and/or indoor sports arenas? Maybe in this day and age of $4 gal gas the Holy Spirit might be seen as finagling some form of financial assistance for some of the attendees, but few of us are at liberty to know for certain. Rest assured however, the number of those who do know for certain seems concidently limited to a few key members spread throughout the various congregations of the predominate Protestant sects and denominatons most responsible for scheduling them in the first place.
This begs another question. Has the Holy Spirit all of a sudden abandoned the Church started directly by Jesus to join up with mostly evangelical Protestant breakaways? If so, then why haven't we heard about the gates of hell opening wide. One would think it'd be a helluva show, with even the Rapture thrown in for "balance." That's right, because even Fox wouldn't be so dumb as to be covering the Greatest of All News Spectaculars without having Tim LaHaye on to balance out whomever's representing Catholics and other less emotionally prone Christians. (However, Fox ought to reconsider assigning Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly count as reliable counter-weightss to LaHaye for reasons of their own accord, or biases.)
Can we really envision the Holy Spirit as being anything but an invited keynote speaker for a few select or elect Christians when Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would remain to offer all of us spiritual guidance?
Now, contrast this spontaneous revival urgings and protestations of spiritual efficacy by the most fervent evangelicals with the more sober, almost kill-joy aspect of Catholicism's consistent knack for playing (quite successfully, mind us all, Sherlock Holmes, when it comes to knocking the stuffings out of bogus spiritual claims. What killjoys these MIB -- Men In Black -- (or with a little color added according to rank) are? Why, if people want to believe in false sightings of Mary in the former Jugoslavia, why that's between them and her and God. Well, Vatican City's never said "THOU SHALT NOT" but it did say, "Why bother? -- You're getting taken. Set your prayers on the real Marian apparitions, not what people who so desperately want to believe and you to believe along with them, are trying to tell, and outright you into believing.
We might have the biggest killjoys for religious leaders, but they sure work hard to make sure we see the devil in the details, especially when the charismatic preachers, "worship teams," swaying back and forth, spontaneous healing sessions and the rest of the sawdust Elmer Gantry circus comes to town.
I know a man, a good man, who attended the Lakeland revival. He came back all excited, and I would've normally liked to be more excited for him. But I'm familiar enough with Florida to know that state has seen more than its share of revivals come and go with no appreciable measure of improvement in social morals there; Unless, of course, one considers that there might be EVEN MORE of what already scandalizes the rest of the country in terms of kiddie sexual slave rings, strip joints, drive-in package stores, huge porn movie complexes and huge neighborhood pockets of prostitution rackets, and openly advertised "adult motels" smack in the heart of the Central Florida buckle of the Bible Belt. S.O.B. Trail in Orlando technically stands for South Orange Blossom Trail. Well, even the natives laugh at that.
My friend and another friend was upset at my open display of cynicism. Perhaps the wounds of seeing what all that other stuff the hyped hopes of dashed revival spirits have failed to (at least reduce) gave me a few or more reasons for such cynicism. Ah, but like the cannibal said to a person who asked him what good had his new Christian faith done, and the cannibal replied, "We would've eaten you by now." Too bad the revivals haven't gotten the cannibals living in the midst of where they hold them to stop eating their victims altogether.
Now, that'd be a real fruit of the spirit they can point to.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 10:20 pm |
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| I agree with what Tim said. It sounds like some pretty goofy and questionable stuff to me, and I am skeptical, yet I know a very good man and solid priest who has experience with this. I don't understand it, but he would seem to be an example of spiritual benefit obtained.
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Robert
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 09:18 am |
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I have been closely following the events in Lakeland on GodTV (via Satellite). I initially thought it was your typical tent revival stuff, but after delving deeper into the material and seeing some of the things going on there, I really get the impression that this is dangerous.
I normally ignore the health and wealth folks like Joyce Meyer, Joel Olsteen, et. al., but guys like Todd Bentley and friends just give me the creeps.
I was watching last night, and for some reason the thought “this is diabolic” came into mind.
His vocabulary seems to be limited to “Anointing”, “Outpouring”, “Bam”, and I can see no indication that he is preaching anything at all except Todd Bentley.
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 12:52 pm |
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Robert wrote:
His vocabulary seems to be limited to “Anointing”, “Outpouring”, “Bam”, and I can see no indication that he is preaching anything at all except Todd Bentley.
Throw in "fire", "the river", and you have the foundation for all of these revivals, it's all about working the crowd into a frenzy, I do the same thing when I step on stage as Jim Morrison......come on baby light my "fire"......BAM! 
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Robert
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 01:16 pm |
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You know Mark,
the main thing that gets me is that people are being hurt. Just the slightest bit of research shows that a great number of the "healings" never took place. One reason I believe that Todd doesn't actually do any thing on stage ist the question of liability.
If he was selling copper bracelets for Arthritis, he would be arrested for quackery! On the otherhand he can do his "dog and pony" healing jig, and injure people physically, mentally, as well as existentially with little or no accountability.
On the other hand, people of his ilk, damm us "pagan" Catholics who give themselves a "shot" of holy water to remind the of our baptism or for asking for the intercession of Mary the mother of God when we're sick.
Bam!!
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 01:32 pm |
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| It is sad, many are being hurt by this, they all report of the "good fruit" of these kind of revivals, but listen to the reprots a few years down the road and they'll be quite different. I have yet to see one healing from these revivals be authenticated, psychosomatic illnesses being "cured" is not a miracle! I know of a dear woman who told me her daughter was healed by Earnest Angley, but the devil stole it away through doubt, this is absurd!
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 08:02 pm |
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First of all, let me say that I firmly believe in healing. I believe that I have been healed in one instance; also my wife, and quite possibly my father. God hasn't stopped being in the healing business and the Catholic Church has always believed in miracles. We're not to get wrapped up in them and expect them as normative, and "live for experiences." That is spiritual immaturity.
That said (as a sort of disclaimer), here is a paper I wrote 25 years ago, as a Protestant, opposing the error of "God always heals":
Biblical Refutation of "Hyperfaith" / "Name-it-Claim it" Teaching: Is it Always God's Will to Heal in Every Instance?
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 08:17 pm |
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| I believe God heals today as well, I just don't believe all that is being espoused as miracles is authentic. I believe God healed my mind from all the LSD abuse......well, part of it anyway!
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"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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Man, and I thought I was and could be rough. Whoa, maybe it's my teeth that need sharpening!
Great posts and keep it up! Now, what a coincidence that there was a revival in Pensacola similar to the one in Lakeland? After all, isn't that bible thumpin' "college" on Florida's new "party coast" a not-so-distant theological (at least) cousin of that ever-so open-minded and progressive institution called Bob Jones University?
Well, let's just leave it at the word "institution" and you folks can fill in the rest.
I'm just shocked to learn that German television would allow for a moment the likes of Meyer or Osteen. You'd better get on that phone Robert and do what you can to save the souls of your fellow country men and women from the likes of what we're willing to indulge. Keep your standards up!
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Robert
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 06:36 pm |
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I'm just shocked to learn that German television would allow for a moment the likes of Meyer or Osteen. You'd better get on that phone Robert and do what you can to save the souls of your fellow country men and women from the likes of what we're willing to indulge. Keep your standards up!
Hey Steven,
its not on German television but on the Digital Sattelite TV, the same that brings me EWTN.
J.M. is however on the German "Bible TV", which believe it or not, is supported by both the Catholic and Lutheren churches.
My standards are those of the Holy Catholic Church, and I work very hard as an apologist when it come to the ongoing "Protestantization" of our church here in Germany. BTW I'm an American who has been here for over 30 years.
The main problem here is that the Bible thumping, glossolalic, faith healing, anti-Catholic, J.T. Chick reading, tent meeting, OSAS, folks from the other side of the Tiber are considered a fringe group and not to be taken seriously. This I think is fatal!
The Lutheren and the Reformed churches are practically the only major denomintion that has widespread acceptance. Here the atmosphere is cuddle, cuddle, cuddle untill the Catholic has lost his identity.
Last edited on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 06:38 pm by Robert
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 08:58 pm |
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Robert, it looks like you've got your work cut out for you. Now that I know you're a fellow Yank, I can ask you if you're feeling like those guys in the 101st up in Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge: Surrounded!
I was of the impression that the Black Forest area was predominately Catholic. Though I can understand why there'd be a strong Calvinist influence due to being so close to Switzerland. Has Ratzinger becoming Pope made any positive difference for the Church and yourself? It seems like he's revived the Church's morale, spirits, etc. (of course, not in the same way our more emotionalistic buddies in the holly roller ranks are.)
Sound like what you're saying about the "cuddle cuddle" approach is what I find quite often in the states. It's the same old "Why be so unreasonable and follow that Roman stuff, we've got it easier and .." .. .Well, I know you've heard that line, as well...we all have! And I got in the past from lapsed Catholics and I'm still hearing it.  !)
I know Kermie won't care for the analogy, but it seems like the old slow boiling of the frog in the pan routine. (Sorry Kerm!) Must be a sign of "western civilization infected by the germ of complacency juiced up by a special kind 'roids to undermine all forms of discipline, etc.) So when the complacent has become despondent because he feels robbed of former purpose, etc., well, guess who arrives on the scene, but the usual suspects you listed above.
To be honest, I'd rather take on the yahoos, chick readers, et al than the complacent bunch. At least you'll get your blood pumped by arguing with people who at least care enough to discuss religious matters. Talking with the "whatever" bunch in any language is like talking to the mentally walking dead while finding yourself looking forward to se eing the white paint you're going to paint in your kitchen later dry, even it if takes an hour. But I have full confidence you'll have the same response to the "competition" as that general in Bastogne had: "Nuts." 
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Robert
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 09:42 am |
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Surrounded!
Not really, thank God. As you mentioned the Black Forrest is Catholic, and I live in the Hegau which is on the edge of it. In fact all of southern Germany and most of western Germany is Catholic. In our village we really do live the Church year, and we also have a Marian pilgrimage site “Our Lady of Schenkenberg”. Where I live, we live Catholic!
(here comes the biiiiiiiiiiiiig BUT)
But it’s getting very fragile. Protestants are moving in, they even have their own Church now! Ecumenical Bible studies have taken place with our Priest and the Lutheran Pastor leading it. They use our Church for Lutheran Confirmation as theirs is too small for all the U-Boot Christians (they only surface on holydays) who come.
Protestant partners of mixed marriages openly present themselves for communion and are not be refused!
The problem is not the Protestants, BUT the Catolics who have not been properly catechised. BTW we have religeous instruction in public schools from beginning to end (12-13 years). But ask the average 16 year old after 11 years of Rel.Ed. if he knows what the real presence means. He'll look at you like Doe, and say we didn't learn that, but we know how to put a condom on a bananna!
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 04:20 am |
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Makes you wonder why our guys have to be their own worst enemy when you think about the way the Lutherans are practically torpedoing your parish. Looks like they never forgot their U-Boat techniques. After all the Lutherans did have an Iron-Cross captain (WWI-fame) Martin Niemoller, who pastored a huge red-brick cathedral in my old city, Wiesbaden -- after standing up to Hitler. He was the one who came up with the famous observation about nobody left to help him after he didn't stand up for those the Gestapo rounded up first. Remarkable man.
Makes you wonder if the Catholic clergy could get the message before the new U-Boats don't sink their parishes out from under them. If they don't STAND UP the Germans who ARE REALLY LOOKING for a solid spiritual home, will fall like dominoes for the next wave, which is usually the bible thumpers, whom even Luther would say "Raust! Raust!" If it can and did happen in Central and South America, no reason why it couldn't happen again in southern Germany of all places.
Thanks for the info and keeping a sharp eye out for the Wolf Packs! 
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abbycat
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 01:18 pm |
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Hi all ... I'm going to add my tiny 2 cents here, and it IS tiny. I was part of non-denominational, Charismatic churches for 25 years, most recently for 12 years whose pastor was a wise man who rejected the teachings of Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, etc. And, Hank Hannegraf's book "Counterfeit Revival" is excellent in shining a clear light on these folks' "ministries." Anyhow, I'm thankful for the background that pastor gave me. Now, as a Lutheran, you rarely, if ever, hear these folks' names spoken. During my 25 years spent in the Charismatic fellowship, I will admit that during the praise and worship portion of the service - usually at the beginning - ours was about 30 min. long, there was a slow and gradual "whipping up" of the congregations. It was as if we started out with an upbeat praise song, and it went from there into a full-blown body and arms swaying (watch out for the eyes friends!), hands in the air clapping, some dancing in the aisles, and just some things that could frighten any newcomer right out the front door. Then, things were "slowed down" a bit with the "worship" portion ... slower, more mindful and prayerful songs, which I guess was to bring us back to earth (?) in preparation for the usual hour sermon. As I look back at all this, I realize that a lot of it was just "whipping up the crowd" as is often done before a TV game show.
If something is truly of God, no "whipping up" is needed, and for folks like me who are very comfortable raising my hands, "normal" clapping .... many times it worried me about the manipulation I saw and how it was being possibly used by forces other than our gracious God.
Just thinking out loud this morning, I guess .....
abby
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Robert
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| First Name: | Robert | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | The whole spectrum from black to white, now 100% Catholic! |
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 03:18 pm |
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Throw in "fire",
Hey Mark,
I’ve been peeking in almost every night on Todd’s rip off revival hoping to catch the point when he starts calling himself God. The other night he added a new one next to “fire” etc. Now it’s Oil, holy ghost give me the Oil, don’t you feel the Oil coming down Oil, oil, oil, oil………
This guy is sick….don't ya feel it, sick, sick, sick....can I get an Amen??
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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rbo4u2
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 453 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 05:20 pm |
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Robert wrote:
Throw in "fire",
Hey Mark,
I’ve been peeking in almost every night on Todd’s rip off revival hoping to catch the point when he starts calling himself God. The other night he added a new one next to “fire” etc. Now it’s Oil, holy ghost give me the Oil, don’t you feel the Oil coming down Oil, oil, oil, oil………
This guy is sick….don't ya feel it, sick, sick, sick....can I get an Amen??
Well...I think my previous answer got lost in the conflagration somewhere. Sick? Oh yeah..Sick that so many are being mislead. Sick that God's name gets dragged through so much muck. Oil and Fire...not a good mix. I can't judge his soul, but I'd be afraid of the oil and fire stuff. He may be slick in oil, but if he's got any fire near he'd better watch out.
Give me holy water first and then fire me with the sweet oil of the Spirit that lights my flame of truth so that all may be drawn to the the bread of life.
Any thing other turns to toast.
Rich
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