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rbo4u2
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| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 08:19 pm |
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 Hello Marcus. I'm glad you're on the mend. I want to say that your show is one of the best, if not the best, on EWTN. I have been really blessed and challenged as I've listened to the testimonies of your guests. I also enjoyed your quotes of the church fathers show you had last night. I could listen that multiple times and still learn from it.
Your show is one of the ones that my wife will occasionally sit and listen to and enjoy. The only other show she enjoys is Mother Angelica. All other Catholic AND Protestant shows, she dislikes. She just doesn't like to sit and listen to anything that smacks of theology and doctrine. She'd just rather go out and do her ministry to the sick and shut-ins. Not a bad thing, I know. Anyway, my journey is singular and probably will be for quite some time.
Keep up the good work, get some rest once in a while...occasionally you look a bit haggard...and keep sticking to us Protestants. Oh...by the way. One question I've asked on the site and one I'd like to ask you is in regards to the evangelical mega-church movement and the emerging church movement. I've seen a lot of converting from many "fundamentalist churches, what we would call "liberal" churches and, of course, the high liturgical churches. But except for one or two that I can think of, not many ministers who have come from the large Mega-Church movement. Have you seen many ministers showing interest from the large evangelical Mega-Churches?
I'd also love to see some reaching out to men like Richard Foster of the Renovare movement who has a warm heart for Catholics, but can't see the need for changing.
Any comments. I know you get thousands of letters, but was kinda hoping mine sneaks through the mob. Oh yes...love the beard.
Thanks and God Bless
Rich
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:20 am |
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NT
Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:32 am by Talithacumi
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Marcus
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Posted: Mon Mar 24th, 2008 03:13 pm |
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Thanks. The most common comment I receive for the JOurney Home is "Your program is my mother's favorite!"
No, we have not seen very many converts from the Mega-Church movement. This is an interesting "phenomenon" and warrants a longer response. Maybe later. (At airport on way to EWTN).
But one of the reasons (I think) is that today's mega-church people are way down the road, even further away from the traditional Catholic understanding of the necessity of the Church than Reformation Protestants. (In my view) Modern mega-church folk are at best "Jesus and me" Christians and have no mental file-folders for the necessity of the Church or sacraments. So if they have a problem with their local mega-church, they even think less about considering the Catholic Church than do disgruntled Reformation Protestants.
However, I think we reach them through the same avenues: pray, love, and discussions about authority, the origin of the canon of Scripture, and the Early Church Father.
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In Christ,
Marcus
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 04:51 am |
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With apologies to Mark Twain, too many of these mega-preachers of megachurchianity seem awfully preoccupied with not just being good, but awesomely good, in the worst way.
However, as a former Pastor, you know quite well how impossible, utterly impossible, it is to even come close to offering what Catholic Priests have for their flock every day, never mind once a month, and only in a symbolic fashion. So they have to come up with a myriad of programs, social services, small groups and other assorted ministries.
But if all these works don't frazzle the faith of even the most stalwart megachurchianity ministers arising from all sorts of evangelical seminaries across the land, that, in and of itself will be a miracle of sorts. Surely as these churches continue growing larger, the demands on these clerics will grow in kind and sooner or later God's little light of reason will surely flicker in the hearts and minds of just a few. After all, it only took one former pastor to get CHN and the Journey Home off the ground. Just think of what can happen for the Mother Church when we start getting more and more of them?
Even the megachurchianity folks must be more than a tad wary of the Big Three of past Gordon Conwell professors, and graduates who crossed the Tiber; yourself, Tom Howard and Scott Hahn.
They're coming; it's just a matter of time, prayers and a big welcome home.
And thanks, many, many, thanks to you and all of your guests. I've been able to recross that river with an ease parallel to that of crossing the Connecticut River only a mile from my home in ways that I could've never dreamt of only a few years before when my wife and I were at loggerheads over even a whisper of dismay with evangelical Protestantism. In many respects, I was a real bull-headed stereotypical Irish Catholic "Thick Mick." Yes, in an indirect way, watching The Journey Home helped "coach" me along in a greater spirit of understanding and love for all Protestants thus also helped to save my marriage, which is going on 25 years strong!
God Bless you and keep you for all that you've done for more people than you could possibly know.
Steven Barrett
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 02:47 pm |
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Marcus, I think the untold secret behind most mega-churches is the fact that these are mega-businesses. The head pastor, (the name pastor) is the CEO. His primary purpose is to give vision, manage that vision and be the "teaching pastor" of the church. He has little contact with the parishioners except for the lay leaders he may meet with and those he runs into after the services or in the halls. Then there is an Executive Pastor who runs the day to day operations of the church and is in charge of the pastoral and non-pastoral staff. Beyond that other pastors are assigned to various need groups in the church, like the youth, seniors, etc.
They operate on sound business principles (we hope) adopted and adapted from the business world. That's probably part of the reason for the smoothness and growth of many of the churches. The guru right now of the mega-churches is Dr. John Maxwell of the InJoy network who gives seminars all over the country on church growth, business principles, (based on scripture of course) and leadership development. I'm familiar with John Maxwell as my parents went to his last church in San Diego known as the Skyline Methodist Church. He was a great Bible expositor at the time and I think should have stayed doing just that. However, success, I feel has gone to his head and he left Skyline with new property in East San Diego County over 10 years ago and a massive multi-million dollar debt that I think even today they are struggling to pay off.
Of course, the other major leader in the mega-church phenomenon is Bill Hybels, pastor of the Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois. Willow Creek has several satellite campuses and a huge Willow Creek network that spans the country featuring churches from nearly all denominations. It gives leadership seminars for many pastors annually.
Out of that has sprung many other mega-churches.
And it goes on and on with a huge majority of mega-churches birthed out of the Assembly of God/Charismatic/Pentecostal/Church of God movements. All have varying degrees of personalities who may or may not be egomaniacs. My pastor came out of Willow Creek and is a world renowned writer, conference speaker and preacher. He's been voted to be one of the top ten preachers in America today. I can attest he is a modest, almost painfully shy person, who practices contemplative devotions in his private life and truly loves the Lord. For that reason, I've made him the top object of my prayers that a miracle happen and that God draws him to the Catholic Church. If that happens, it will create an earthquake in the evangelical movement.
Another man I'm targeting in my prayers is Rick Warren of the monstrous mega-church in Saddleback California. I have a top 5 list I'm praying into the Catholic Church. These two men are on that list. I have no reason to believe they are moving in that direction, but God can provide God size miracles.
Well, that's a background of my knowledge of the movement. But I urge all Catholics and non-Catholics on this board and others to pray for these leaders that a miracle will occur and that they be brought into the mother church. Not because they are super leaders, but because their defection would shake the evangelical world to its very roots.
God Bless.
Rich
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 05:21 pm |
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Rich, you hit a home run with your observations about the business-like tone, character or ambiance of these megachurches.
Take a good look at the many tomes being published just for pastors seeking to bone up on their "leadership skills." (I bet JP II or his predecessor Cardinal Archbishops in Krakow and Warzaw never read or needed to read books like these. Yet they managed. Boy, did they manage!)
As for chief executives, and others exercising considerable power(s) within these megachurches, well, we have them too. They're deacons, priests (even circuit riding priests nowadays as in missionary days of olden years), bishops and of course, THE CEO, a Pope. Now of course, there are other roles, such as monsignor, archbishop and cardinal, but we'd better not go there because they're not exactly spelled out in the bible. Nor are CEOs, special parking spaces for "senior clergy," the chief pastor's wives as "first ladies," (ohhhh, yeah, I've seen that gem, too on a few websites) and perhaps a few other nice titles and all the perks that go with them. It's just that our church's governing system is more experienced and truly based on a solid footing of traditional spiritual antiquity. And by antiquity, I mean it's lasting because it's tried, true, and always ready for another 2,000 years.
There seems to be a common thread with many of these megasystems; they start out in somebody's basement and over a relatively short period of time, maybe 10-15 years later, POOF, VOILA and WOWEE, it's as if they've put steroids into their Chia-like Bible studies! Thousands of people are going in and out of this factory for evangelical activity and if you're living nearby, good luck getting out of your driveway when the big services are in session. (You might as well join just for parking privileges, and free car repairs only let on that all the broadway or Busby-Berkley-like dancing, praisin' in the aisles "music," and endless gassy impromptu prayer sessions are driving you batty. (And they complain about the Rosary? Well, that's because some of these big shot execs haven't gotten around to telling their flocks it's not polite to treat Catholics like heathens who believe in two deities, one male and one female. )
Some of these megachurchianity conglomerates feature charismatic and of course, "awesome" writer/lexturer/and of course, leading Christian TV "personalities" as their chief spiritual leaders. Notwithstanding the little advertised fact that many of their latest hot books hyped as "best sellers" might be rehashes of oldie goldie sermons and riding on waves of manipulated sales figures thanks to various book clubs, it would be so rash for the rest of us sheeple to presume upon their spiritual betters' time or energy. (Heavens no: that's what organizational structures are so deftly crafted for.)
Odd, however, how I've seen busy bishops make time to speak with people who've kindly and patiently waited to a have just a few moments, listened to them and made sure one of their assistants from their chanceries were paying close attention and taking copious notes. Maybe not in every diocese, but by and large, I bet you'd be hard put to find our big shots behaving in such imperious manners as befitting a big shot for GM or (gasp, Wal-Mart, a layman's temple for materialism, one of our unofficial official religions.)
Perhaps that's why so many leadership books are necessary for young and on the go pastors and other clerics. It takes "leadership" to know how to get along nowadays. Only God knows why this seems to be so when Tip O'Neill effectively led his district and held the Speaker's Office for a solid decade just by remembering that "all politics is local." (It kept him from having to buy larger hats.) And, how DID Jesus manage to keep those relatively unsophisticated rubes, especially St. Peter, whom He entrusted with His church's keys, in line and focused on what they needed to do on behalf of the millions of lives they'd change. He'd just walk and talk, sit under trees and talk, visit with the folks, set the example and never be afraid to take the time to speak.
Wow, and it's all in the Bible. Awesome, dudes.Last edited on Tue Mar 25th, 2008 05:26 pm by Steven Barrett
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Marcus
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Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 06:02 pm |
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You are all giving excellent and important information, especially for our prayers. I know, from inquiries, that many within the hierarchy of the Church (especially in Italy) do not understand these large independent American churches. I may pass some of your thoughts along to the Papal Nuncio who has asked questions about these churches.
Thanks!
____________________
In Christ,
Marcus
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Marcus
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Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 06:04 pm |
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You are all giving excellent and important information, especially for our prayers. I know, from inquiries, that many within the hierarchy of the Church (especially in Italy) do not understand these large independent American churches. I may pass some of your thoughts along to the Papal Nuncio who has asked questions about these churches.
Thanks!
____________________
In Christ,
Marcus
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 09:23 pm |
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Hi Marcus. As I think I said earlier, trying to describe a Mega-Church is not easy. A Harvard review classifies a Mega-Church as any church over 5000 in attendance. Beyond that there are doctrinal differences which influence their identities. There are the traditional Mega-Churches such as the huge First Baptist Church of Dallas Texas which I believe is part of the Southern Baptist Convention. It’s former pastor was Dr. W.A. Criswell. Before that I think the pastor was George W. Truett who many think was the greatest preacher/pastor ever in the Southern Baptist Convention. I’ve heard people say that Criswell, as great as he was, couldn’t hold a candle to Truett. While Truett was a positive preacher as opposed to many in his denomination, he was not kind to the Catholics.
You have other Mega-Churches who have been around. You go back to the mid 1800’s and in England you had the huge Metropolitan Tabernacle pastored by the “Prince of Preachers”, Charles Haddon Spurgeon. He had no cotton for the “papists” whatsoever.
In the same town you had G. Campbell Morgan who pastored the huge Westminster Chapel. Morgan was a bit of a flashy man, but had enormous talent. But his church was typical of a personality led congregation. It faded from the scene after he past away in the 1945.
Here in the states one of the great Mega-Church pastors was D.L. Moody who founded the Moody Church in Chicago and the Moody Bible Institute which has been a backbone of conservative evangelical life for many years. All these leaders had much in common with today’s leaders except they derived their leadership principles more from the scriptures than business. However, the principles they lived by were pretty close to today’s Mega Church pastors.
Today’s Mega Church pastors, like Robert Schuller, of Crystal Cathedral fame and now his son Jr., Bill Hybels of the Willow Creek ministries, Rick Warren of the huge Saddleback Church (Baptist) , and Joel Osteen of the huge mega church in Texas are all CEO’s. They are Peter Drucker graduates of business principles. Each have a Vision, A plan to Implement the Vision and they gather around them faithful followers who implement the vision.
There are differences in style. Some are “seeker friendly” churches who design their services around the “felt needs” of those who are not of the faith. So their services are often less liturgical. Sometimes you feel you are more in a theatre than a church. Other churches are denominational and reflect the theology of the denomination but are run like a mega-church. The church I go to is considered a mega-church, but we are run according to the laws of the Presbyterian Church. The pastor may be the CEO, but he is still under the rule of the “Session” or board of advisors from both the Presbytery as well as the church session. Never the less our pastor, who hails from Willow Creek, is the CEO.
Other churches are not affiliated with any denomination but are the works of very hard working CEO’s who build the ministry around their personalities and are often charismatic or free church oriented. These can take on the look of just about anything from a free style rock and roll concert, a biker bar, as one in Riverside California or a Pentecostal “holy roller” congregation.
Our pastor just taught a sermon on how churches are built using a formula developed by one of the guru’s of theology today, Dallas Willard. Dallas is influencing Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, Richard Foster (which is another story…not Mega Church) as well as my pastor and many others. The formula for many of the successful churches is a ministry developed with a Vision, an Intention, and a Means or Method to carry out the ministry.
The Intention is an objective look at what is around you to see how you may carry out the mission. But it’s all a business approach. It works. But does it develop holiness?
The arguments swirl around that issue.
Well, that’s a long winded expansion of what I said earlier. I hope it makes it in one posting.
Richard
Last edited on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 09:25 pm by rbo4u2
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 02:24 pm |
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At the risk of running off at the mouth, or wearing out the keys on my keyboard, let me add a couple of positive thoughts regarding the Mega-Church Movement. There are a few major Mega-Church ministries that, I believe sincerely, would be open to major ecumenical dialogue with the Catholic Church. John Ortberg, pastor of the Menlo Park Presbyterian Church in the SF Bay area, is a very Godly, contemplative man. He regularly reads the saints in his devotions, loves them and refers to them often in his sermons. He has a passion for leading people into the Love of God and out into the Love of Neighbor in the world. He is my pastor. I'll bet my life, he'd go out of his way to meet with Catholic leaders to come together in healthy dialogue. Sure, he has the usual differences with Catholicism, but he's also open minded and extremely intelligent. I'm told he has nearly a photographic memory and can tell you practically the page of a book he's read in the past.
I'm convinced Bill Hybels of the Willow Creek Community Church and Associated ministies would do the same. Same with Rick Warren of the big Saddleback Church in Southern California. These are sound, deep thinking, sincere men who will reach out to anyone. And I think with a little encouragement, would welcome dialogue with the Catholic church.
Their mentors and spiritual advisors, who aren't pastors, but have profound influence on this strain of evangelicalism are Dallas Willard and Richard Foster. Both these men, I know, would welcome dialogue. Richard Foster especially. His movement, Renovare, has numerous Catholics already on board and support team participating in his ministry. Richard's Renovare Bible was originally printed with the Deutero-Canonical books included in the text because he thought they were worth of contribution to the scriptures. He now has another Bible out without the extra books. I'm sure that was to appease his critics. Foster also has an entire part of his program that emphasises meditation and contemplation using many of the writings of Catholic writers and saints.
One other group that has had major influence over all these men is Fuller Seminary in Pasadena California. It has numerous Catholic students and even has a satellite campus here in Northern California on a the grounds of a Catholic seminary. I know at least one of the professors at the new John Paul II seminary in San Diego is a student at Fuller working on his Doctorate degree.
So not all is negative. My great dream is to see the church become one again. These men along with Chuck Colson, could go a long way to making that happen.
In my opinion.
Rich
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 02:27 pm |
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At the risk of running off at the mouth, or wearing out the keys on my keyboard, let me add a couple of positive thoughts regarding the Mega-Church Movement. There are a few major Mega-Church ministries that, I believe sincerely, would be open to major ecumenical dialogue with the Catholic Church. John Ortberg, pastor of the Menlo Park Presbyterian Church in the SF Bay area, is a very Godly, contemplative man. He regularly reads the saints in his devotions, loves them and refers to them often in his sermons. He has a passion for leading people into the Love of God and out into the Love of Neighbor in the world. He is my pastor. I'll bet my life, he'd go out of his way to meet with Catholic leaders to come together in healthy dialogue. Sure, he has the usual differences with Catholicism, but he's also open minded and extremely intelligent. I'm told he has nearly a photographic memory and can tell you practically the page of a book he's read in the past.
I'm convinced Bill Hybels of the Willow Creek Community Church and Associated ministies would do the same. Same with Rick Warren of the big Saddleback Church in Southern California. These are sound, deep thinking, sincere men who will reach out to anyone. And I think with a little encouragement, would welcome dialogue with the Catholic church.
Their mentors and spiritual advisors, who aren't pastors, but have profound influence on this strain of evangelicalism are Dallas Willard and Richard Foster. Both these men, I know, would welcome dialogue. Richard Foster especially. His movement, Renovare, has numerous Catholics already on board and support team participating in his ministry. Richard's Renovare Bible was originally printed with the Deutero-Canonical books included in the text because he thought they were worth of contribution to the scriptures. He now has another Bible out without the extra books. I'm sure that was to appease his critics. Foster also has an entire part of his program that emphasises meditation and contemplation using many of the writings of Catholic writers and saints.
One other group that has had major influence over all these men is Fuller Seminary in Pasadena California. It has numerous Catholic students and even has a satellite campus here in Northern California on a the grounds of a Catholic seminary. I know at least one of the professors at the new John Paul II seminary in San Diego is a student at Fuller working on his Doctorate degree.
So not all is negative. My great dream is to see the church become one again. Would I love to see the likes of Scott Hahn, you Marcus, Peter Kreeft and representatives from the Vatican all together on one platform discussing issues of ecumenism. Whatta dream! These men along with Chuck Colson, could go a long way to making that happen.
In my opinion.
Rich
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graceknowledgement
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Posted: Sat Apr 5th, 2008 07:00 am |
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| Another church "denomination" in this category is the Vineyard church. 2 years ago I was the Associate Pastor and my best friend (still my best friend) was the Pastor of a small Nazarene congregation. Today he is an associate in a very large Vineyard church under a CEO type pastor. I am a not quite yet a Catholic in a nice, larger church and have no leadership role (yet), for which I am currently grateful because my wife is not (yet) in harmony with my Catholic leanings. Anyway, my friend's recent complaint to me was that he got in trouble (I'm thinking that actual anger was shown to him) for not making the color of the border of the announcements that were displayed on the mega-screen blue or green, or whatever color they were supposed to be. He got a call on Saturday night, during?after? the Saturday service, and had to go into work and correct "the problem" so that the announcement border would be displaying the correct color border for all the services on Sunday. This is the type of thing that passes for "excellence" and "leadership". To me, it sounds tyrannical. I was given so many books on "leadership" over the years, and I disliked many of them. Sure, some of the things were good, but the central focus has got to be Christ, and you have to admit, Jesus wouldn't fit in with today's CEO, or even a Church CEO for that matter! It's things like this that have contributed to me turning away from Protestantism towards Catholicism. Yes, Catholic leaders lead, but they are supposed to do it with Christ's humility. In spite of many people denouncing the Catholic Church because of its so-called "pride" in being the true Church, etc, I see the practical applications of Catholic leadership as a great positive--strong leadership, but showing grace.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Sat Apr 5th, 2008 02:19 pm |
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graceknowledgement wrote:
, Jesus wouldn't fit in with today's CEO, or even a Church CEO for that matter!
I wonder how many of today's CEO pastors would be willing to take a vow of poverty to serve in their churches.
Dare I say, their wives wouldn't let them.
Rich 
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graceknowledgement
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 03:35 am |
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| Actually, I and many people I know became empoverished trying to live solely on meager wages and 60+ hours of work, sacrificing our families for the sake of the well being of the church. It has taken me years to see what I was told but didn't see--take care of your family first. That's why I think the Catholic church has it right--people who are not married have the time to serve in greater capacity. Now, the beauty of things in the Catholic church is that I CAN choose to serve, but I don't HAVE to be at every event every time the doors open the way I was when I was in pastoral ministry. Some denominations (or, rather, certain congregations within those denominations) can be very brutal on the family in this way. There are unrealistic expectations. Unfortunately, I know many, many couples who I went to seminary with that are divorced.
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