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left coast mystic
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| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
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| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 02:02 am |
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I just read the description of Arminianism in Wikipedia and am wondering if Dave or someone could (or knowing Dave, HAS) put together a table showing the difference in doctrines among the three perspectives. I'm looking for a short, visual summary, sort of like this (taking the basic premises as described in the Wiki article):
DOCTRINE ARMINIANISM LUTHERANISM CATHOLICISM
DEPRAVITY total ? ?
ATONEMENT intended for all ? ?
SATISFACTION OF GOD'S JUSTICE
GRACE resistable
FREE WILL
ELECTION conditional
PREDESTINATION
ETERNAL SECURITY
The reason I'm asking is that, having read the article, Arminian believes seem "right" to me, but I know that this is how people respond to descriptions of beliefs that they've absorbed without applying conscious reasoning.This kind of simple comparison would help me to see where my subconscious beliefs are in opposition to Catholic doctrine.
Thanks,
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 04:22 am |
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Let’s get a few categories straight in our minds, Marcee. First, Arminianism is a reactionary form of Calvinism which affirms, against Calvin, the existence of free will. Luther often came close to denying free will, but I think stopped just short of it. (Dave A. will be able to give you better information on Luther, since he has studied him extensively; I’m not an apologist, so cataloguing Luther’s view of things is kind of secondary in my research goals.)
Catholic theology has two main schools of thought on the questions of grace, election/predestination and free will. One is the Thomist school, following St. Thomas Aquinas (and Dominicans generally); the other is the Molinist school, following a Jesuit theologian by the name of Luis Molina (and Jesuits generally). The latter, though developed independently, has some strong affinities to Arminianism. [Luis Molina is to be distinguished from Juan Molina, who about the same time originated a heresy known as Quietism, which is sometimes also referred to as Molinism.] There are other schools of thought as well, such as Augustinian (from St. Augustine but extensively developed over the centuries; Fr. Benedict Groeschel is a contemporary Augustinian) and Congruist (two of the more famous advocates being Francisco Suarez and St. Robert Bellarmine), but these have fewer adherents. I did a bit of reading a few years ago on this general topic, going in as a presumed Molinist (my boyhood background as an Arminian Methodist had pointed me in that direction) and emerging with a greater appreciation of Thomism and Congruism. Today, I would have to say that Molinism does not stand up very well under scrutiny, but I am not entirely convinced of any other theory either.
However, I must also point out that the Catholic Church has not decided the issue; it remains open. So you can opt for any of the several schools of thought or withhold judgment.
Catholicism does have a doctrinal position on most of the points in your list, and these must be taken into account as you size up the different viewpoints. All of the different schools of Catholic thought adhere to official doctrine; it is a matter of different theological avenues to the same doctrinal conclusion.
Briefly, Catholicism rejects total depravity, accepting instead a “woundedness” as the result of the fall of Adam. In other words, there is depravity, but it is not hopeless. Christ’s atonement is for all mankind, which just about everyone except the Calvinists accepts. “Satisfaction of God’s justice” needs closer definition before I can characterize the Catholic standpoint on it. Grace is mostly resistible; free will is accepted, with a few minor modifications due to human limitations. Predestination is accepted, but not in the Calvinist sense. It is applicable only in a positive sense: predestination to glory, not to reprobation. There are some subtle theological limitations on predestination in the Catholic sense that we need not go into here, but become important as one explores the topic at a deeper level. For instance, some schools of thought could agree with the Arminian label of “conditionality.” Eternal security is denied on the ordinary level, such as that proclaimed by the Baptists.
Some reading suggestions: From the online Catholic Encyclopedia, Arminianism, Free Will, Molinism (which also contrasts it with Thomist thought). For a more in-depth look at the question of grace, predestination and related issues, I recommend Predestination, by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange. It is available online here, or in book form from TAN Books and Publishers. This is a full length theology book, not a quick read, but very informative. The author, a Dominican who was the doctoral mentor for the future John Paul II, argues for the Thomist point of view but presents other schools of thought accurately and fairly.
David
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rbo4u2
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| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 02:15 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
Some reading suggestions: From the online Catholic Encyclopedia, Arminianism, Free Will, Molinism (which also contrasts it with Thomist thought). For a more in-depth look at the question of grace, predestination and related issues, I recommend Predestination, by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange. It is available online here, or in book form from TAN Books and Publishers. This is a full length theology book, not a quick read, but very informative. The author, a Dominican who was the doctoral mentor for the future John Paul II, argues for the Thomist point of view but presents other schools of thought accurately and fairly.
David
David, Thank you so much for that explanation. I was not at all familiar with Molinism. I've had a hard enough time wading through Thomist and Augustian thinking. I can see that I've only scratched the surface of my understanding of these theologies.......after 40 years!!! I'm a slow learner I guess. 
Rich
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 05:57 pm |
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Twilight Zone moment - - doo doo, doo doo....
I'm rereading "The Salvation Controversy" by Jimmy Akin. I read this forum yesterday and last night I was reading about the same stuff in his book. And it all AGREED!
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 06:36 pm |
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DOCTRINE CALVINISM ARMINIANISM LUTHERANISM CATHOLICISM
TOTAL DEPRAVITY Y see note see note N
(all these belief-systems accept original sin and sola gratia: absolute necessity of God's grace to be saved and to have the results of the Fall overcome {"total inability"}, and deny semi-Pelagianism: the doctrine that man can initiate salvation. Classic Arminians and Lutherans (along with Catholics) are often falsely accused of semi-Pelagianism because they believe in human free will. Lutherans also falsely accuse Catholics of same, in their confessions, because we deny imputed justification, refuse to formally separate justification and sanctification, and assert merit. Arminians and Lutherans posit a fall that is distinct from Catholicism and Calvinism, but closer to the latter. The main difference is that they would deny the notion that even good acts of an unregenerate person are evil, as Luther and Calvin taught. This is the strict definition of "total depravity" and relatively few brands of Christians hold it)
UNIVERSAL
ATONEMENT N Y Y Y
IRRESISTIBLE
GRACE Y N N N
FREE WILL N Y Y Y
(Luther denied this, but Lutheranism decided to follow the thought of Melanchthon and others back to a more Catholic understanding)
UNCONDITIONAL
ELECTION y N N see note
(Thomist Catholics believe in unconditional election; Molinists and Congruists believe it is conditional only in the limited sense that God takes into account foreseen actions of man by means of Middle Knowledge. Man is still not causing his election even in Molinism and Congruism, because any good thing he does is always enabled by God in the first place. But it is ultimately a mystery why one man chooses to accept grace and another does not, within a paradigm of free will. All views boil down to how one relates God's sovereignty and providence to the free choices and free will of man: one of the most complicated questions in theology)
PREDESTINATION Y Y Y Y
(SALVATION)
PREDESTINATION
(DAMNATION) Y N N N
ETERNAL
SECURITY Y N N N
BAPTISMAL
REGENERATION N mixed Y Y
(some Arminians, such as some Methodists and Anglicans, accept baptismal regeneration)
INFANT BAPTISM mixed mixed Y Y
(Reformed Baptists practice adult "believer's" baptism; most Calvinists: such as Presbyterians and Reformed, baptize infants. Goups such as Churches of Christ and Disciples of Christ; combine baptismal regeneration with a belief in adult baptism. Methodists and Anglicans baptize infants. Pentecostals generally believe in adult baptism)
SACRAMENTALISM N mixed Y Y
(Calvinists speak of sacraments, but in the end, their baptism and communion are mere signs of God's mystical presence, without actually accomplishing anything themselves, which is the usual defiition of "sacrament": a physical means to obtain God's grace. Methodist and Anglicans can be sacramental to various degrees; some believe in the Real Presence. Lutherans are highly sacramental, but have only two sacraments. Confirmation for them is sort of "semi-sacramental". Catholicism and Orthodoxy alone retain the seven sacraments of historic Christianity, Sacred Tradition and the Bible)
---------------------------------------
I am a congruist, myself. Here are some of my papers, along these lines:
Confessional Lutheran, Arminian, and Melanchthonian Soteriology Compared (Are Philip Melanchthon and Arminians Semi-Pelagians?)
Lutheranism vs. Catholicism (Particularly Regarding Original Sin and Faith Alone, and Including Extensive Catholic Commentary on the Book of Concord)
A Primer on Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism
Did the Council of Trent Teach That Man is Saved By His Own Works?
Soteriology and Creation (Man's Cooperation, Pelagianism, Nature and Grace) (vs. Peter J. Leithart)
1 Corinthians 3:9 and Man's Cooperation With God
Do Catholics Believe in Predestination?
Did God Harden Pharaoh's Heart? (Does God Positively Ordain Evil?) (vs. an atheist)
A Dialogue on the Nature of God's Foreknowledge and Sovereignty
(vs. Dr. Alex Pruss)
Dialogue on Molinism (Speculations on How God Predestines) (vs. "JS")
Molinism, Middle Knowledge, and Predestination: Suarez, Congruism, and the Elegantly Ingenious Solution of Fr. William G. Most
Dialogue on Molinism and God's Mode of Predestination (+ Part II | Part III | Part IV) (vs. "JS")
Observations on Arminianism
Catholic Predestination (Ludwig Ott)
The Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity and Romans 3:10-11 ("None is Righteous . . . No One Seeks For God"): Reply to James White (+ Discussion)
Fallacious Calvinist Arguments For Total Depravity: Does Romans 1 Apply Universally to Fallen Man?
Last edited on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 07:10 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 07:24 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote:I can see that I've only scratched the surface of my understanding of these theologies.......after 40 years!!
Aren’t you glad your salvation doesn’t depend on knowledge? As we read in scripture, “What shall we do (to be saved)?” (cf. Acts 2:37–38; 22:10; Luke 10:25; 18:18).
JillD wrote:I read this forum yesterday and last night I was reading about the same stuff in his book. And it all AGREED!
Imagine that! 
David
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left coast mystic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 10th, 2008 |
| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
| Posts: | 129 |
| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 02:41 am |
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Oh my - this is going to take a LONG time for me to absorb, but thanks, David & Dave!
Something I'm finding very unnerving these days is the great difference between what I experienced in the way of corporately held beliefs in the admittedly unusual church families I have been part of - a "Jesus movement"/charismatic commune run by a Presbyterian elder & an evangelical charismatic (but decently and in order) Presbyterian church - and what I am learning are the actual tenets of the reformed faith. It's like finding out that your beloved family members were actually all in the Mafia. I hope I get out of this confusing maze soon.
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 03:10 am |
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For some reason, this post really caused me to chuckle, Marcee!! ... Find out your family is all mafioso... Why I do I find that amusing??
It's a hundred degrees here. Maybe my brain is melted....
Still, it's funny!!!
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 03:16 am |
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JillD wrote:
For some reason, this post really caused me to chuckle, Marcee!! ... Find out your family is all mafioso... Why I do I find that amusing??
It's a hundred degrees here. Maybe my brain is melted....
Still, it's funny!!!
Marcee said: It's like finding out that your beloved family members were actually all in the Mafia.
_______________________
I laughed also, Jill, and almost posted about it--lost my nerve at the last minute, lest Marcee had not intended to be humorous. 
BeckyLast edited on Sun Jul 20th, 2008 03:16 am by Intercessor
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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left coast mystic
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 04:02 pm |
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Don't worry about me, folks, I'm VERY hard to offend!
As I thought about it overnight, I can say pretty confidently that neither the pastors nor any of the elders (of which both my husband and I were included) of either group generally held to Calvinistic beliefs. I had NO idea how far afield Calvin was until Dave provided that handy table!
This highlights the difficulty I'm having right now - a denomination may presumably hold to a belief system, but (a) there's no authority within that denomination to ensure that the original belief system is adhered to, so (b) there's no assurance that any given subgroup of the denomination believes the basic doctrines, even if those at the top levels of the denomination still do (which, as far as I can tell, they generally don't, regardless of which denomination you're looking at), but (c) this means that although some subgroups drift farther from the truth, others drift closer to it.
My experience, I'm discovering, has been that the primary subgroups I've been associated with have been in the "drifting toward truth" camp. In fact, the congregation that shaped both my DH's and my faith the most was, I find, leaning HEAVILY toward Catholic thought and honoring Catholic tradition, although it was a Presbyterian church. That just tells me that God has been preparing me for a LONG TIME to make the final leap across the Tiber!
Marce the amazed
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 05:34 pm |
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That just tells me that God has been preparing me for a LONG TIME to make the final leap across the Tiber!
Marcee the amazed
Maybe one of these days you will come to the conclusion that, in spite of appearances, God knows what he is doing.
David
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left coast mystic
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| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 11:04 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Maybe one of these days you will come to the conclusion that, in spite of appearances, God knows what he is doing.
David
If I didn't already believe that I wouldn't have had the strength to persevere in life.
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 08:56 pm |
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Hi David, Attached is a copy of your comparison chart. I hope it transfers well to the forum. If not, we'll just take it off and try something else. It's in a PDF form. For now, it's the best I can do. I can't figure how to put the Excel form online. Unfortunately some letters got cut off on the right, but I just couldn't figure out how fix it. I'm pretty computer illiterate.
Enjoy everyone.
Attachment: Copy of CatholicDoctcomparison.pdf (Downloaded 6 times)
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 09:22 pm |
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| Thanks, Rich, for this work. I just hope I represented all the theological views correctly!
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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