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JillD
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 04:49 pm |
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I heard last night at a parish meeting that ours is planning to think about ecumenical prayer with non-Christians: Hindu, Muslim, etc. I have ambivalent thoughts on this, but mostly negative ones. I guess it's nice to make friends, but it seems that their faith is being at least legitimized, if not promoted, by an event like this.
It's odd that it's almost easier to envision this than praying alongside Mormons or JW's, but I still think both are questionable, at best.
Has anyone's parish done this? What did you think?? What's the point?
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Annie
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 06:56 pm |
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| There are some contexts in which this is actually forbidden. It would depend on the context. If it were just lay people praying together it would be all right, according to the documents I have read.
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left coast mystic
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 07:14 pm |
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I went through the spiritual direction program at a retreat center run by the Sisters of Mercy. The center is known for its welcoming dialogue with other faiths. On the one hand, my sense is that they might be taking it a bit too far, but on the other hand, the underlying respect shown to people of other beliefs (protestants, hindus, buddhists, etc.) was strong evidence to me of the spirit of humility in the Catholic church. The context is always mutual sharing - you tell me your beliefs and I'll tell you mine, and there is always the search for the seed of truth that exists anywhere where people are seeking God.
I also presume that if this retreat center were far off track that the diocese (or whatever authority is above them) would correct them, because all this is being done quite openly.
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and trust shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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JillD
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 07:16 pm |
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Not necessarily. Our retreat center's priest gives the Eucharist to anyone, all very openly....
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Annie
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 07:16 pm |
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left coast mystic wrote: I also presume that if this retreat center were far off track that the diocese (or whatever authority is above them) would correct them, because all this is being done quite openly.
Unfortunately, judging by what is going on in various places this is definitely not the case, a retreat center or even a parish can go way overboard and the bishop can choose to look the other way for whatever reason. Just because a group is doing something does not mean it has or is deserving of approval. That's the sad state of affairs today.
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Ora et labora
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 09:25 pm |
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Objection to such practices like this has been a big (and, I think, mistaken) theme of so-called Catholic "traditionalists." But it can be defended from solid Catholic traditional principles, such as from St. Thomas Aquinas. I have two papers on my site (written by others) that deal with such issues:
A Defense of the Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (Ecumenism in St. Thomas Aquinas) (Fr. Alfredo M. Morselli)
A Response to (and Befuddlement Over) Criticisms of the Second Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (2002) (Mark P. Shea)
I should note that in these meetings, it wasn't literally praying together (i.e., to the same God) since this wouldn't be possible with someone like a Hindu or a Buddhist. But it was meeting together in the same place to pray separately. The latter doesn't involve any compromise of one's own principles or beliefs or implication of what is called indifferentism.Last edited on Thu May 29th, 2008 09:27 pm by Dave Armstrong
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left coast mystic
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 09:33 pm |
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Dave -
Could you comment on my assumption that if Mercy Center were seriously astray that at some point in the many years that it has been openly acting as a meeting place to engage with people of other faiths the authority over that center would have brought correction if it had been needed?
-Marcee
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Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and trust shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 09:44 pm |
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Hi Marcee,
Unfortunately, it is not always the case that places like this are rebuked (assuming they need to be). There is a lot of laxity on the part of bishops. I wish it weren't the case, but it is. So oftentimes we have to judge for ourselves.
There is legitimate Catholic ecumenism that presupposes the fullness of truth found in the Cathoilic Church, yet at the same time seeks to dialogue with other faiths (and other fellow Christians) and see how much we truly have in common: with respect and in love.
Then there is an illegitimate ersatz ecumenism that amounts to all religions being the same, or theological relativism, an obliteration of true distinctions and a pretense of agreement even where there is none. Chesterton wrote wittily about being so open-minded that your brains could fall out. If that is taking place then it is contrary to the Catholic faith, as clarified (particularly) in Vatican II.
I've written a lot myself about matters relating to ecumenism.
Last edited on Thu May 29th, 2008 09:45 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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JillD
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 10:46 pm |
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Dave,
I guess I'm lazy and also a bit unfamiliar with the background of your articles to keep reading.
Pragmatically speaking, three questions:
1- What is the purpose in praying in the same place at the same time as non-Christians? (I realize that it's not meant to be praying together, but praying separately together.) What is the goal of this?
2- Will it cause the non-Christian to feel that his religion is just as valid as the Christian's, just as true? IOW, will the "event" legitimize any doubts he might have had about his faith? Would a non-Christian who had perhaps been contemplating his faith be cemented even more firmly in it due to an "event" like this?
3- Will Christians be open-mouthed upon hearing of such an event? Frankly, I would be. I love my Catholic faith, but there's so much that goes on lately that makes me shake my head and wonder...
And maybe a 4th: Will non-Catholics feel drawn toward the Church because of this?
I just can't see a lot of good coming out of it.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Free
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 12:01 am |
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Jill, Dave A. has posted part of an interview with then Cardinal Ratzinger that pertains to your questions, I believe. It's in the Specific Prayers thread. Go near the end to the paragraph that says something about being wary of "too-easy ecumenism." The paragraph is in reference to entering into non-Catholic , yet Christian, charismatic worship services.
You ask many good questions in your latest post. I think you know from my previous posts my wariness of mixing faiths, and I would even go so far as to quote St. Paul, "What fellowship can light have with darkness?"???
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 08:32 pm |
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Hi Jill,
Excellent questions: as usual in your case (and I love getting them; makes my work day go by fast).
I guess I'm lazy and also a bit unfamiliar with the background of your articles to keep reading.
Boo! 
Pragmatically speaking, three questions:
1- What is the purpose in praying in the same place at the same time as non-Christians? (I realize that it's not meant to be praying together, but praying separately together.) What is the goal of this?
Unity, mutual respect as much as possible, common goals (world peace, friendly relations, joint efforts such as fighting hunger or poverty or despots or natural disasters, etc.). These are all good things in and of themselves, and they can be done without compromise.
2- Will it cause the non-Christian to feel that his religion is just as valid as the Christian's, just as true?
It could, if it's misunderstood.
IOW, will the "event" legitimize any doubts he might have had about his faith? Would a non-Christian who had perhaps been contemplating his faith be cemented even more firmly in it due to an "event" like this?
It is widely misunderstood as indifferentism or relativism, but I still say it is better to do it than not to, despite all that, because (I would argue) lots of things in Catholicism are misunderstood. It's a thinking man's religion. We catch misery about all sorts of things: particularly Mariology, the Eucharist, and papal infallibility. Does it mean we cease believing them because many will misunderstand and make little attempt to understand what we believe and why? No; clearly not. We can explain ourselves but if it is not received (as in a recent notorious thread on this board), we can't help that.
3- Will Christians be open-mouthed upon hearing of such an event? Frankly, I would be. I love my Catholic faith, but there's so much that goes on lately that makes me shake my head and wonder...
I think you are not properly understanding it. One of the problems is that this is a somewhat complex (and highly nuanced) discussion, so that you have to (sorry!) read some in-depth materials. You can't ask great, "meaty" questions but then say you don't want to read more explanatory material. C'mon!  The depth of the questions prove that you are ready to read some "heavy" stuff that will delve more deeply into the matter and resolve your difficulties. The two links I gave about Assisi can help you work through the issue and better understand it. The one from Fr. Morselli is technical and cites Aquinas a lot. The Mark Shea piece is less technical (and quite witty, as all of his writing), so I would recommend that of the two, to start. Fr. Morselli writes:
[W]e can pose a more definite question: must an unbeliever (an unbeliever by way of pure negation) pray? I think the answer is "yes," because, according to St. Thomas's teaching, we know that religion is a part of Justice, and Justice is an obligation by natural law. Every man must be religious, because every man must be upright (iustus). Prayer is an act of religion (not an act of faith), so every man must pray. So we must say to an unbeliever: follow natural law; you must be prudent, temperate, strong, upright. . . .
I conclude that invitation to unbelievers to pray, is not a formal participation in an act of false religion, but is a formal invitation to be religious, to follow natural law. The pope doesn't says: "Pray to a false God," but "Pray [as best you can]." Everything false in such act of religion, becomes an "indirect voluntary" (as the death of a child in case of removal of a cancerous uterus).. . .
All missionary speeches hope for the good faith of the interlocutor. The fact that a missionary knows that not all men are good, doesn't exempt him from trying to convert, step by step, all men. And the first step of conversion is the observance of natural law. In addition, although we know not all men are in good faith, we don't know which are good or bad people. I didn't say "in Assisi all people were good," but rather, "it was allowable to invite all men to pray, hoping they were in good faith."
For example, I recently observed on my blog how in several particulars Muslims are closer to Catholics in belief than even Protestants are (hence a reason to engage in joint efforts with them, wherever possible):
Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet. That's a lot better than the Jews have historically thought. They think he was a liar, false prophet, and false messiah. Yet the early Christians continued to worship at the Temple and in the synagogues and St. Paul called himself a Pharisee at his trial. Jesus Himself was pretty strict in observing the Law and Pharisaic customs, and urged His disciples to follow whatever the Jewish teachers told them to do (Matthew 23:1-3). The Judaizers are described as Christians in the NT.
Muslims revere the Blessed Virgin Mary far more than Protestants do. And for them she is the mother of a prophet, whereas for Protestants she is the mother of their Lord and Savior. Observant Muslims still have lots of children and do not contracept, whereas Protestants contracept by the hundreds of millions. Faithful Muslims are pro-life, have a proper view of the sinfulness of sexuality outside of marriage, and do not have the huge problem with, for example, pornography, as we do in the west. Millions of Protestants and Catholics do not practice traditional sexual morality. There is plenty of truth in this religion (and plenty of hypocrisy and sinfulness in how we Christians practice ours).
And maybe a 4th: Will non-Catholics feel drawn toward the Church because of this?
Not necessarily, because ecumenism is not (by deliberate design) as "persuasive" as apologetics, in terms of "our view is the better view." The goal is to see how much we have in common. It's not contradictory to apologetics or evangelism, as many think; it's just as different thing. We all have friends or family who disagree with us, and where we know there is no immediate prospect of persuading them. And so we have to get along as best we can, realizing that there are differences. THAT is ecumenism: how can we get along despite differences, and how can we best appreciate each other where we agree? It's applying what we all do in extended families and work relationships to the world religious scene.
I just can't see a lot of good coming out of it.
Hopefully, something of what I wrote will cause you to have a change of heart. Ecumenism is a wonderful thing, rightly understood and practiced.
Now, in your particular parish it may be practiced wrongly, in a liberal, indifferentism fashion that I would strongly oppose (sadly, this is probably the case more often than not). I don't know. I'm defending efforts like the Assisi conferences, that were high-level Church functions with the pope present. Plenty of people detested those, but in every case I've seen firsthand, and have debated, the people had to misrepresent what happened in order to condemn it. That's a straw man, and not a fair way to go about criticizing something. To refute an idea one must understand what it is in the first place. That's the first rule of all debate and dialogue.
Last edited on Fri May 30th, 2008 08:36 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Jun 1st, 2008 01:38 am |
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I did read (mostly) Mark Shea's post and it's (mostly) understandable. I'm afraid my initial question was prompted by my priest's idea, not Assisi. I don't even know what the meeting at Assisi was all about.
In general, I think Mark Shea defended the position well. The idea of a group of people of different faiths getting together to discuss how to promote world peace or fight cancer is a good thing. But I don't see why it needs to be a group of Catholics and a group of Muslims and a group of ... whatevers coming together. By doing that, MY PERCEPTION would be that these groups see themselves as having equally valid FAITHS, not just equally valid purposes for coming together. Why can't it just be a group of individuals who happen to have different faiths, and frankly, leave prayer out of the meeting until everyone goes home?
I didn't get the part about praying being good because it's a religious thing, even if one is praying to a 'god' who does not exist. But this comes back to my difficulty in grasping the teaching that Muslims and Catholics worship the same God, as the CC teaches we do.
If I prayed to the Easter bunny for solid instead of hollow chocolate, and make it dark, too, please, would my prayer be of any consequence? If I added that I'd also like world peace, would the EB hear my prayers?
And despite all the fancy philosophizing, the average Joe is still gonna scratch his head when he hears, rightly or wrongly, that Catholics and Muslims were praying together for world peace, even if they were in different rooms doing it... When the average Joe sees Sebelius and Giuliani going up for Communion, he doesn't understand the fine point of an EMHC not being the one to make the decision of whether to give it or not - or, see, what IS the story with that??? Actually, that's a different thread. Never mind.
But unless someone does some very CLEAR, very UNDERSTANDABLE explaining of an ecumenical PRAYER GATHERING, there will be grave misunderstanding and much stumbling.
Sorry, I'm an average Joe, er, Jill, who is a tad scandalized by some of this stuff....
Avg. Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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jacki
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Posted: Sun Jun 1st, 2008 01:45 am |
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| I'm a normal Jo too. In the hopital I work in there is a multi-faith room, I purposley go in daily, get on my knees and pray with my rosary beads, I say purposley because I only ever see Muslims in there, no other Christians at all - am there to stand up (well kneel) and be counted.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 10:09 pm |
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Hi Jill,
In general, I think Mark Shea defended the position well. The idea of a group of people of different faiths getting together to discuss how to promote world peace or fight cancer is a good thing. But I don't see why it needs to be a group of Catholics and a group of Muslims and a group of ... whatevers coming together. By doing that, MY PERCEPTION would be that these groups see themselves as having equally valid FAITHS, not just equally valid purposes for coming together.
Why does that necessarily follow? Why should the logic change just because there are representatives of religious faiths rather than individuals?
Why can't it just be a group of individuals who happen to have different faiths, and frankly, leave prayer out of the meeting until everyone goes home?
Because there is no difference. One thing that would be objectionable, however, is if the Catholic participated in the other rituals and prayers, as if they were giving consent.
I didn't get the part about praying being good because it's a religious thing, even if one is praying to a 'god' who does not exist.
It's like how St. Paul approached the pagan Greeks in Athens:
Acts 17:23-29 So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op'agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, `To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, for `In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, `For we are indeed his offspring.' Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.
St. Paul cites two pagan poets and/or philosophers: Epimenides of Crete (whom he also cites in Titus 1:12) and Aratus of Cilicia (17:28), and expands upon their understanding as well (17:29). He seems to assume that these people are sincere in their devotion, as far as it goes. They simply need more information through revelation, which he is there to provide.
But this comes back to my difficulty in grasping the teaching that Muslims and Catholics worship the same God, as the CC teaches we do.
We have to interpret language in context, lest it sometimes be misunderstood. I dealt with this in a paper: Does the Catholic Church Equate Allah and Yahweh? (+ Discussion).
If I prayed to the Easter bunny for solid instead of hollow chocolate, and make it dark, too, please, would my prayer be of any consequence?
No, but it could be harmless and not a sin (esp. if you were a little child). Some people are children when it comes to religion. They are still on mother's milk. We Christians can come offer them the meat of mature spiritual teaching.
If I added that I'd also like world peace, would the EB hear my prayers?
No, cuz he ain't there. But that isn't the point. Ecumenical efforts are not to persuade others that they are wrong (apologetics is for that!) but to agree on what can be agreed upon in good conscience without anyone having to compromise their own beliefs.
And despite all the fancy philosophizing, the average Joe is still gonna scratch his head when he hears, rightly or wrongly, that Catholics and Muslims were praying together for world peace, even if they were in different rooms doing it...
People misunderstand a lot of things (as I noted last time). Does that mean we don't do them anymore? No. I don't think it helps the Catholic cause to "dumb down" our religion so that no one could ever possibly misunderstand it. What we need to do is better understand it ourselves and explain it to others. Jesus implies something along these lines when He states: "Not all men can receive this saying [consecrated celibacy], but only those to whom it is given . . . He who is able to receive this, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:11-12). Elsewhere in the Gospels a similar thing is stated about parables: that not all would understand. Again, in 1 Corinthians 1, Paul talks about the foolishness of Christianity and how even the wise "philosophical" Greeks would not always understand it.
When the average Joe sees Sebelius and Giuliani going up for Communion, he doesn't understand the fine point of an EMHC not being the one to make the decision of whether to give it or not - or, see, what IS the story with that??? Actually, that's a different thread. Never mind.
This is an indefensible abuse; I agree. It's up to the local bishop to stop it.
But unless someone does some very CLEAR, very UNDERSTANDABLE explaining of an ecumenical PRAYER GATHERING, there will be grave misunderstanding and much stumbling.
I don't see why. It does require some thought, but you are capable of it, so are most people if they give it a chance. Your problem was that you didn't want to do this extra work of understanding it ( "I guess I'm lazy and also a bit unfamiliar with the background of your articles to keep reading" ).
Sorry, I'm an average Joe, er, Jill, who is a tad scandalized by some of this stuff....
No need to be at all. Decry abuses but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Last edited on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 10:10 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 01:59 am |
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Jill,
Maybe my new trifocals aren't working as good as I'd hoped they would. Did I actually see where you said at the retreat center the priest handed out Communion to everyone?
Nice gesture BUT  . I need say no more. But maybe we can get him up to see Fr. Corapi along with that Pfleger guy from Chicago for a "straigthtening out session."
But I've got the Mother (Superior) of all Mush-Thinking Toppers with this link. Our dear sweet Oprah, aka Harpo.  (Frankly I put more trust in Harpo's wackiest roles.) http://townhall.com/news/religion/2008/05/29/oprah__a_jealous_god
After reading this thanks to Townhall p icking it up from Baptist Press, I'd think long and hard who I pray and break bread with. Much less waste an hour of not only watching Wi nfrey's shows, but taking them seriously.  Perhaps we should have an emoticon showingthe old Kool Aid Pitcher.
Have fun with this.
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JillD
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 03:47 am |
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Why can't it just be a group of individuals who happen to have different faiths, and frankly, leave prayer out of the meeting until everyone goes home?
Because there is no difference. One thing that would be objectionable, however, is if the Catholic participated in the other rituals and prayers, as if they were giving consent.
No difference? I think it makes a huge difference. Here are two headlines. Imagine their impact on the typical reader:
Catholics and Muslims Meet to Pray About World Peace
vs
Folks of Many Faiths Meet to Discuss World Peace
You know that if there's prayer at this meeting, the former will be the headline, whether the prayer is separate or united. If I saw that former headline, I would be quite dismayed. If I read the latter, I'd want to participate!
You really can't see a difference??
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 1001 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 03:54 am |
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Hi Steven,
Did I actually see where you said at the retreat center the priest handed out Communion to everyone?
My friend who worked at the Retreat Center said that this was the typical practice. She was not dismayed by it. She, a convert, also felt that women should be priests, so when I expressed misgivings about this practice, she just looked away, and I could tell there was no point in discussing it further.
I've heard about the Church of Oprah. Just a further sign of the times... I mean, all of our belief systems are equal, aren't they? We all approach God, just by different paths.
I can almost understand all this, but somehow we need to also make the distinction VERY clear, and also make it clear that prayers to Allah are misguided, misdirected. How can anyone feel the stress of having their beliefs questioned if we are always accepting everything they do, say, and pray to? What keeps them from feeling perfectly validated in their faith??
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1566 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 04:41 am |
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Jill,
It'd be great to see you take on the Kumbaya Katholic Krowd out here. You'd pick 'em apart, piece by piece in no time. But on the other hand, sometimes it is best to just and gently walk away. A trick I've yet to master at times. And that's because I cannot for the life of me understand the loosey-goosey attitudes of some Protestants; or worse, their adamant defense of being so loosey- goosey even on the important things.
With some evengelicals, it's thou shalt not even think of challenging their right to insist upon no challenging anybody, not just themselves. The reason being, chit chat around the coffee, juice and donut hole altar is more important than substance, unless of course, it's some vapid book the pastor or some big honcho evangelical minister's pushing that's got all the latest tricks and trades of "discipleship."
So much for "iron sharpens iron."
"Hey, Let's have another cup of Wimpy Winfrey... before we head off to adult sunday school where we can learn all about the plucking of grain on the Sabbath...MUST be significant if so-and-so is giving a talk on it."
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It broke my heart to see so many talented and otherwise more thoughtful people taking part in Mother Oprah's ecu-prayer-bash in Yankee Stadium after 9/11. It's one thing for a grieving and shell-shocked great city like NYC to hold a prayer session, but a sloppy deal like Oprah's and in Yankee Stadium of all places; that was outright desecration of Hallowed Grounds.
No wonder the Bombers haven't won a Series since 2000!  She must've had somebody put her own brand of Kool Aide ("oops, "communion wine" in The Stadium's water system.) Last edited on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 04:49 am by Steven Barrett
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James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 06:16 pm |
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JillD wrote: I've heard about the Church of Oprah. Just a further sign of the times...
In the 80's there was a Church of St. Elvis (Presley) in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. At least they openly admitted they were in it for the tax write-off. I assume the IRS eventually caught up with them.
They offered both weddings and confessions at a drive-up window.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2445 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 06:44 pm |
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| Sounds like the "ecumenism" in this particular place you mention, Jill, is not authentic Vatican II ecumenism. If they do it wrongly, and it is indifferentist rotgut, then of course I oppose it as much as you do. I just wanted to get across that there is a way to do these things that doesn't compromise the Catholic faith in the slightest.
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