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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 08:51 pm |
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God's peace. I have said elsewhere, and many times, that since my conversion to the Catholic Faith my desire has always been to submit to the teaching of the Church in all things. Nevertheless, there is one area where I still struggle greatly, and need counsel. It is the area of capital punishment, and the Church's anti-position on it.
I have done my homework and I know what the Catechism says. My Catholic teachers look at me very strangely when I murmur that something seems not right--in act, not Biblical--about the Church's anti-capital punishment stance. I have carefully weighed all of the usual arguments: time for repentance; all life is sacred; only God should take life; life imprisonment removes the threat and has compassion on the killer;, what about mistakes in judement; etc. All come short of satisfying what, for me, seems to cry out: justice! I had two friends who were both murdered. While it would be great if their killers repented, I also think it's great that they were apprehended, quickly sentenced, and that since these killers did this in Texas they will be (relatively) swiftly executed!
I simply don't understand why this anti-position is so prominent in the Catholic mindset today. Were Catholics always so opposed, or is this a "modern" (i.e. post William Penn and the "penitentiary" idea of justice) thing? I need help! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
Last edited on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 07:50 am by Br_Carlo
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 10:10 pm |
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The Catechism’s answer, Br. Carlo, is that like war, capital punishment is sometimes a sad necessity. And like war, we need to avoid capital punishment if at all possible, but when it proves necessary, it is not immoral or unjust. In other words, you do not have to give up your belief that capital punishment is sometimes the best way to maintain justice and social order. This is Catholic doctrine.
The reason why we see so much emphasis on avoidance is the social and cultural background. Pope John Paul II believed that capital punishment is seldom necessary. OK, but that’s an opinion. The fact that his statement is quoted in the Catechism seems to be mostly a political matter, not an advancement of doctrine.
That said, I’m sure you are aware that seeking justice, even in the case of an unrepentant murderer, is not easily reconciled with the Christ-given commandment of charity. I do not seek to oppose the two principles, however, because in God these two virtues are fully unified in a single divine will. Our own conformity to the divine will should help to reduce the conflict.
David
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5348 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 10:42 pm |
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Br_Carlo wrote: God's peace. I have said elsewhere, and many times, that since my conversion to the Catholic Faith my desire has always been to submit to the teaching of the Church in all things. Nevertheless, there is one area where I still struggle greatly, and need counsel. It is the area of capital punishment, and the Church's anti-position on it.
This is one case where we much distinguish between Catholic doctrine and Catholic teaching.
As David mentioned, Catholic doctrine tells us that capital punishment is sometimes necessary and justified, and society has the right to protect itself even if it means that a criminal must be put to death.
Again as David mentioned, Catholic teaching tells us that the death penalty is rarely necessary or justified in today's society, and should be avoided whenever possible. Still, the Church recognizes the right of legitimate government to protect society.
I admit to being in the same conundrum as you. In principle, I believe that the death penalty is sometimes necessary. I cite, for example, a person who kills while committing a felony, or someone who kills a police officer, or a mass murderer like Timothy McVeigh. In addition, someone already under life sentence who kills someone else has nothing to lose and no reason not to kill again. But I also wonder if putting them to death doesn't let them off the hook. Is death actually an easier sentence than life in prison? But as long as they're alive, they can kill again. It's not an easy issue to resolve.
The appeals process often can take decades, and (I assume) all governments have appeals and commutation practices available in case someone truly repents and makes a dramatic turn. In Louisiana, Willie Rideau was convicted of a double murder almost half a century ago, and he educated himself and became an award-winning journalist in prison. He was released on supervised probation a couple of years ago. Had he been put to death, he would never have had the opportunity to change his life and become a positive factor in society.
So while I support the death penalty in principle, I don't think I could ever vote to put someone to death. I know I could never flip the switch.
So I am also seriously conflicted, but my feelings fall within the doctrine and teachings of the Church. I fully accept the doctrine, and my feelings fall within the scope of teachings. But that doesn't resolve my personal conflict. It doesn't really matter since I will never serve on a jury in a capital case (neither lawyer would want me), and I will never be a public official whose vote would matter. But it still bothers me that even theoretically, I would be willing to let someone die.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2007 04:45 pm |
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I recently read an article in orthodoxytoday.org about capital punishment that said the Orthodox view was that the aim is to stop the cycle of violence and if capital punishment will do that in a particular case then that is the way it has to be. This view also covers the issue of being ready to defend the innocent with a firearm if necessary, before they become a victim. That doesn't mean you go around trying to be The Terminator/Liquidator but to stand by and do nothing when you are capable of doing something makes one morally culpable.
You can go around in circles forever on this subject of course, like with most really important issues.
Head spinning (as usual),
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Annie
Ora et labora
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2007 06:19 pm |
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Annie wrote: You can go around in circles forever on this subject of course, like with most really important issues.
The Church's position on moral choices is actually pretty well defined. We avoid what we can and do what we must. This is the case with war, capital punishment, and lots of other things.
It is a grave evil to kill, but if I have to kill someone to defend myself or my family, the killing is acceptable. Society has the same right of defense for its members. Pope John Paul II believed that in today's world, it is never necessary to kill in order to protect society, but that was his personal opinion. The doctrine of the Church remains the same.
I admit to being conflicted about the death penalty as well. I support it in principle. However, it would be extremely difficult for me to be so convinced of someone's guilt that I would vote to take his life. I am certain I could never flip the switch. By taking his life, I take away his opportunity to repent, and I would spend the rest of my life wondering if that person was condemned to hell due to my action of preventing his repentance. I would have to be absolutely certain that putting someone to death is the only possible way society could protect itself.
Moral dilemmas come in much simpler form, too. If a father has absolutely no way to feed his family and his choice is to watch his kids starve or steal their supper, is it OK to steal? I say yes, because his first obligation to God is to provide for his children. But I can't imagine anyone in the U.S. or other developed countries being so destitute that stealing is the only available choice.
And when it comes to moral dilemmas, we can only do our best to make the right choice under the circumstances of the moment.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2007 11:31 pm |
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The Pope, JPII, was concerned about the soul. Can we judge whether a particular person is redeemable?
I say that spiritual men can judge.
1 Corinthians 2
15 But the spiritual man judgeth all things; and he himself is judged of no man.
But how many spiritual men do we have sitting in judgement in this heathen government?
And how many times have the wrong men been sentenced?
So considering our frailties, I think the Catholic Church teaches correctly that capital punishment is a last resort.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 10:04 am |
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God's peace. I take a lot of heat because of the fact that Texas is the "busiest capital punishment state." I have relatives in New York and Pennsylvania who frankly look at Texans as barbarians for this and other things (our right-to-carry handgun laws, for example). But I think we Catholics in Texas and other capital punishment states need to step back a bit and look at some facts before changing our ways.
I agree that capital punishment ought to be rare in terms of applicable crimes. In Europe in times past, stealing a loaf of bread was punishable by death, as were a host of other minor offenses. Just judical reform has abolished such laws. Happily, even in Texas, capital punishment is now reserved for the most heinous offenses. Were America a theocracy, public blasphemy and sodomy might also be considered a hanging offenses; they still are in strict Islamic states. However, in Western, first-world countries, where capital punishment exists it is generally limited to relatively few crimes. This constitutes rarity of application. In addition, considering the vast number of crimes sentenced every year, only a small fraction of them are capital. This constitutes an absolute rarity of occurrence--we just have lots of people and lots of crimes, and a very active press.
Even when the death-penalty crimes have been committed, exception from the death penalty is frequent. All sorts of mitigating circumstances are considered, both justly and unjustly. Executive clemency is still possible. The appeals process is incredibly lengthy, and new DNA testing procedures have already freed many wrongly-convicted prisoners.
However, this is not enough for those crusaders who consider the death penalty to be an intrinsic evil, like abortion. They want it ALL gone. These people are often quick to accuse me of hypocrisy at best and complicity at worst. Opinion statements like that of the late JPII do not help matters, as they are taken by many to be infallible Church teachings. Recent joint statements condemning all capital punishment by the US Catholic Bishops strongly tend to reinforce this view.
The commonest argument--that locking such offenders away forever constitutes adequate punishment with the possibility for reform--is in my opinion a smokescreen. Almost never are people locked away forever in America! As long as murderers live, there is a chance--and a good one, considering the political climate--that a liberal judge or governor will set them free. When this happens, and they kill again, the civil magistrate has failed in its God-given mandate to protect the innocent. Yet, I rarely hear public Catholic outcry about this. Why?
While I can enthusiastically embrace the Church's prayer of support for life "from conception to natural death," I still find myself supporting the death penalty in those rare instances where it is applied. I must also admit that when I read yet another case where a liberated child murderer rapes and kills again, I find myself thinking that had the death penalty been applied that precious little child would still be alive. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
Last edited on Sat Mar 10th, 2007 10:08 am by Br_Carlo
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 03:30 pm |
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| How about we take the religious issues out of the question and look at the question from a non-religious point of view. In my state, (CA, also called "The Left Coast) it is considerably cheaper to give a person a life sentence than to pay for 25 years of lawyers and appeals. Also, after DNA came along, there have been a number of death sentence cases thrown out across the USA and in the military, because they found out that the conviction was a mistake. The fly in the ointment, in my opinion, is the judge who changes the sentence on a person because of a left-wing attitude. If the cases were judged in light of the "facts" of the case, as see at the time, and later more is known about the case, it would be a lot easier to free a person from a prison than it would be to dig them up and try to free them.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 10:14 pm |
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| Let me give a different objection to the death penalty. In all Biblically mandated death sentences, the wounded parties perform the execution or at least their close relatives. In our modern society total strangers, paid to do little but kill, perform executions. I feel that paid, uninvolved execution is a danger to the soul of the executioner. I find it difficult to belieive a person can kill for a living and not have it effect their soul, so in spite of the fact that some criminals might deserve execution, I am not willing to risk the soul of the executioner to accomplish this. If the effected persons or their close family was willing to kill the person, perhaps it could be justified, but that is not usually the case.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 10:41 pm |
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mrsbmoo wrote: Let me give a different objection to the death penalty. In all Biblically mandated death sentences, the wounded parties perform the execution or at least their close relatives.
This is often still the case in Middle Eastern societies. Killing is done for revenge or honor. Often, the victim of the crime is killed, as in a sister or daughter who has been raped. Modern society removes the motive of revenge by taking the death sentence out of the hands of the victims.
In our modern society total strangers, paid to do little but kill, perform executions. I feel that paid, uninvolved execution is a danger to the soul of the executioner. I find it difficult to belieive a person can kill for a living and not have it effect their soul,
In many death sentences, the means are arranged in such a way that there is no certain way to know who committed the execution. For example, in death by firing squad, some of the guns have blanks. In death by lethal injection, there is usually more than one "switch" and the switches include real ones and dummies.
Even so, the executioner is in the same role as a soldier in war. He is committing a "righteous act" and so he is not guilty of sin. Nor is an executioner usually the same person repeatedly. But I agree that someone willing to carry out a death sentence could become inured to killing and begin to lose respect for a person's right to life.
If the effected persons or their close family was willing to kill the person, perhaps it could be justified, but that is not usually the case.
That would concern me even more, because then the executioners would be in a position to take the killing personally. The death penalty should never be a personal act; if it is ever done, it should be done unemotionally as an act of self-protection by society. That's why the execution of Saddam Hussein was so upsetting to me. His executioners enjoyed it.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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crazy66coolie
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| Location: | Hove, United Kingdom |
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 04:23 am |
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Juan wrote: The Pope, JPII, was concerned about the soul. Can we judge whether a particular person is redeemable?
I say that spiritual men can judge.
1 Corinthians 2
15 But the spiritual man judgeth all things; and he himself is judged of no man.
But how many spiritual men do we have sitting in judgement in this heathen government?
And how many times have the wrong men been sentenced?
So considering our frailties, I think the Catholic Church teaches correctly that capital punishment is a last resort.
Sincerely,
Juan That's interesting! I thought that it is our reponsibility to make sure that everyone lives in a safe environment, but it seems that in the UK (my home country) there are increasing numbers of robbery-related deaths. I am more worried about how our Government is reacting to this one. I agree with Juan when he said, "So considering our frailties, I think the Catholic Church teaches correctly that capital punishment is a last resort." Maybe I thought about this as a non-Catholic and I decided that the Catholic Church is accurate in their teaching about that. God bless you all. Neil x
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Jesus is Lord! Catholicism is awesome!
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