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sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 05:31 pm |
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| I had an upsetting conversation this weekend that is still bothering me- a friend and I got to talking in general about something or other but it led to Belgium's recently passed bill allowing euthanasia for disabled children and the elderly.- I said that it was a slippery slope- who decides?- well then the conversation moved on to Terry S. and I said I felt that what happened there was wrong- and my friend said so you want us to keep you alive- you want to live on a vent? I pointed out that Terry WASN"T on a vent in the first place- and so then I was asked well if you had ALS-you would want a vent? I said no, but if I continued to breathe on my own I didn't want anyone pushing a lethal injection on me and that there is a difference between allowing to die and actively killing someone. Patients who are terminally ill under hospice care are medicated, they are not force fed but neither are they refused food or fluids. I pointed out that for a terminally ill person who's body is shutting down then they do lose desire for food and water but a healthy person's body isn't actively shutting down so to starve them of food and fluids is a long protracted death. Then we moved on to disabled kids- and the old with dementia- I said again Who are we to decide who lives or dies? is there a financial break even point- and didn't she think that was a law ripe for abuse?- She told me point blank that she was sure that it would be abused and that perhaps people would be very fast to give that shot for financial or other reasons. My friend kept saying through out all of this "I am not afraid to die" just give me that needle if I have a stroke or whatever" - I kept saying that "I am not afraid to die either" that is not what this whole thing is about - the fear of death- she then said "well you are about life at any cost- that is so Catholic- you are also against homosexuals". Ironically I struggle with the death penalty whereas she totally doesn't believe in it? so go figure - a serial killer deserves not to be killed whereas a disabled child does??? The other thing that I was told was that if the Catholic church wasn't so anti divorce perhaps Terry's husband wouldn't have been so determined that she should die. And about 50 times I got told that death wasn't so bad and that SHE wasn't afraid to die. But then she is strong on animal rights whereas even though I am very animal conscious as you can see from my signature- I do think that while it is a kindness to put a suffering animal down and have no problem spaying or neutering a pet there is a difference between an animal and a human.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1665 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 06:31 pm |
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Hi Kim,
I commend you for your heroic patience. I would have lasted five minutes in that conversation.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 06:53 pm |
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I guess that kind of debate haunts me becuase I think that it is becoming more and more prevalent- we seem to value life so little- I work with special needs kids ( and I have one) and while I agree the costs are staggering what value can we put on a child finally learning that to roll his eyes up means yes- the fact that the child did learn this and was then able to answer yes and no questions and moved on to a picture board means that he was not "just a vegetable"- he never in his short life walked, sat, or was able to give any self care- but he would smile and laugh when some staff came in and frown at others ( lab techs usually) so doethe the value of his life come down to being lucky enough to have been born in the US 20 years ago vrs. Belgium or the Netherlands in the very near future? This friend of mine doesn't want to live if she goes blind, has a stroke and wants to die fast if she was to develop cancer or one of the degenerative diseases such as ALS ( Lou Gehrigs) this person spends a lot on staying young looking- fashion, figure face etc. and in all fairness phyically fit and has said for years that at 75 she would kill herself.Since she is in her late 60's decision time is coming soon She has told me that I should have a clear living will if I didn't want my family to do the "kindest thing for me and would insist on life support" She didn't even hear me saying over and over- no long term vent but don't give me any lethal injection
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 784 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 07:16 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Hi Kim,
I commend you for your heroic patience. I would have lasted five minutes in that conversation.
Dave, you gotta be kidding!!! You are a tenacious bulldog!! You would have lasted 5 minutes only if, within 4 minutes and 59 seconds, you had utterly silenced this silly woman.
Again, I'm very thankful you're on our side.
Jill
P.S. Go Kim!
Last edited on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 07:17 pm by JillD
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 07:28 pm |
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| She is not the only person who has equated prolife ( not just in an anti abortion sense) with fear of death- what kind of weird thinking is that? Is it due to our society becoming more secularized or is it a leagacy of the boomer generation who really didn't want to grow up and give up their toys ( imho)
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LOVECC
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 08:24 pm |
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God Bless you, Kim!
Those conversations are always tough because no matter what you say, they don't listen - they already have their preconceived notions and don't want to hear anything else. Whenever I have conversations like that, I think of the 8th Beatitude: Blessed are they who are persecuted because of Me, theirs is the kingdom of God (paraphrasing - I know that is not the exact language - but you get the drift  ) You defended your (and the Church's) position and that is all that you could do. Jesus is smiling upon you. All He asks of you is to make an effort, which you clearly put forth.
Love,
Lisa
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 973 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 09:02 pm |
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Kim,
If the people you got into that debate with think of themselves as "philosophical" in any way shape or form on matters of life and death, they are sadly delusional.
There is only one God and He is a jealous God for our sakes, because every time we try to play God, we only hand ourselves over the devil and God has every right to be ever vigilant and angered.
There was a little town to the north of where I lived in Germany (Wiesbaden) called Hademar. In this town there was an old school the Nazis turned over to their diabolical social scientists who played the Pied Piper all over again, but this time snatching mentally enfeebled kids fromt their parents. The kids were killed by euthanasia, then put in the Third Reich's first use of ovens.
When it gets too much to listen to these "philosophes,"just brush them aside with one word: Hademar, and walk away saying no more.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 228 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:52 am |
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To give you an example of how I like to deal with this kind of argument, I've transcribed one side of an imaginary conversation with your friend
"You say you are not afraid to die?"
"I'm curious; does that mean that it would be okay for me to kill you? Would it be 'right'?"
"Of course you're perfectly healthy, but do you remember when your 4year old stubbed his toe in our back yard last week? Would it have been okay for me to 'put him out of his misery'? 'Cos let me tell you, he was miserable!"
"And what about your mother? You were telling me that she couldn't find her keys for 3 hours the other day. Surely that's a sign of Old Timers disease. Shouldn't we start the ball rolling to get her 'sent off' before things get too bad?"
"You lost your keys the other day didn't you? ..."
Rather than starting with abortion or euthanasia, I start with Murder, not out of passion, but just because someone looked at me kind of funny, and show how few steps there are between that and the kind of laws that they and their supporters are trying to get introduced.
Most people intrinsically know that cold blooded killing is wrong, the trick I find is trying to get them to come up with a reason that it is wrong. Simply put, there are no good arguments against murder that are likewise good arguments for abortion or euthanasia
Regards Doc
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Cathcon
Member
| Joined: | Fri Feb 29th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 31 |
| First Name: | Marie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | I am now Catholic but used to be Dutch Reformed |
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 05:49 am |
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I can understand how you feel - my husband was diagnozed with bile duct cancer almost four years ago now - he has had 3 surgeries and us currently undergoing chemo and has been for almost a year now - last June 12th he was given 6-8 months to live and according to your friend was about ready for "the shot" at that time. God has been so good to us and Richard has defied all the "odds" this is a very rare cancer and and survival past one year is only about 30% and we are fast approaching 4 years and you know what - the oncologists say that it looks as if the cancer is not growing at this time - other than some side affects from the chemo is is able to live a fairly good life - he said that he was also not afraid to die but would do so when God said time was right and not a minute before and if nothing else at least his disease was giving UCI something to study what would help the next person.
I find it sad that we have become so blase about something so precious as the gift of life. But you know it is easy to say all those things about not being kept alive when you are not in that situation. I have seen in the past four years how people fight to live.
God bless
Marie
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 11:28 am |
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I know a man with an aggressive brain tumor who has had three months to live for the last seven years. I wonder at what point we should "put him down"?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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left coast mystic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 10th, 2008 |
| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
| Posts: | 142 |
| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:03 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: She is not the only person who has equated prolife ( not just in an anti abortion sense) with fear of death- what kind of weird thinking is that? Is it due to our society becoming more secularized or is it a leagacy of the boomer generation who really didn't want to grow up and give up their toys ( imho)
My sense is that the desire to "cut it short" at the end of life is more about fear of SUFFERING than anything else. Our culture is one that is actively opposed to our personal suffering (of course, we don't mind if we cause "bad" people to suffer!). That's one reason why buddhism has such appeal in this country - because it emphatically denies suffering as having any purpose.
It doesn't take much to get to the core issue with such folks - just ask what they are hoping to avoid. The answer, in my long experience, is always suffering (the person's or their loved ones'). Then you have an opportunity to explore (and testify to!) the value of suffering. BTW, this is one of the most precious treasures of the Catholic Church - she understands AND TEACHES the value of suffering. If you don't "get" that, life is pretty unbearable.
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and trust shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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january tuesday
Member
| Joined: | Fri Apr 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Minneapolis, MN |
| Posts: | 41 |
| First Name: | Karli | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Evangelical Free, Baptist, Roman Catholic (2008) |
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 12:19 am |
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left coast mystic, I agree with you, I think Americans are really afraid of suffering. And without a meaning to suffering, it makes sense, it is scary.
euthanasia for the disabled hits a sore spot with me. My sister had incephilitis when she was 6 weeks old and was left with severe brain damage. she can't walk, sit up, or talk, and someone seeing her for the first time may see only how she suffers. And I won't pretend that she doesn't, she has a very difficult life. When people talk about euthanasia as a merciful thing, I feel that it's because they don't see the life midst the suffering. Seeing my sister smile when she eats something sweet, or laugh when she hears my siblings argue, and coo with me when I sing, even cry when she doesn't hear anyone and thinks she's alone, I just feel that people don't understand. I don't really blame them either, it's hard to see when looking from a distance.
What needs to happen, instead of removing the suffering from our sight in a "merciful" way, is that attitudes toward the suffering need to change. We need more programs for the disabled, more respect for the elderly. We need to make them our treasures, rather than our burdens. The church in which I came into the Catholic Church is named for St. Lawrence, one of my favorite saints. When asked to hand over the Church's treasure to the Prefect of Rome, he brought the poor, the crippled, and the sick and presented them to the Prefect saying, these are the treasures of the Church. He was martyred for such a bold move.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, I just wanted to share and encourage everyone in supporting life.
____________________
"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 11:18 pm |
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I don't want to encourage the sins of pride, arrogance or even complacency when it comes to feeling good about the Church we belong to and so many wonderful people want to come into (or may still make that final decision YES!) to "cross the Tiber."
But am I off-base in suggesting that it's not entirely a bad thing to feel really good about being about belonging to or want to belong to a Church that's so reviled, despised and hated for wanting to stick up for the weakest, smallest and considered by the world as the least significant?
A famous president said to judge him by the enemies he keeps. Amen! And the same goes for us! 
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 623 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 03:13 am |
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| Regarding Terry S., while I am sorry that she had to be killed, although I don't have any proof, don't know any of those people personally, I have to wonder exactly what happened that caused Terry to become, pardon my expression, "brain damaged" and I also have to wonder about her alleged husband who fought so hard to have her "put down", so to speak. I would like to see law enforcement work on an in depth investigation on that guy, and on that situation, in order to finally determine what caused Terry's situation. Also, he had gone to live with a woman and had two children by her even though still married to Terry. Um, in the eyes of the church, isn't that adultery? Frankly, I think that adultery needs to go back to being a punishable offense both criminally and civilly (that doesn't mean that the police would need to go around trying to find adulterers, it should simply be a charge which the offended party can file against their spouse and the spouse's girlfriend or boyfriend both in criminal and civil court - and I bet that a lot of marital unfaithfulness would disappear too). Anyway, her parents wanted desperately to keep her alive and were willing to take over and to pay for her care, as I understand it, yet this guy kept fighting to end her life and tried to keep the parents from seeing their daughter, even from knowing where she was buried. And all anybody had was HIS word, undocumented, that she did not want to be kept alive when, traditionally, it takes at least two witnesses under oath. So much about all that deeply troubles me and it IS the business of society especially when situations like this can set the stage for criminals to have an advantage over people and for societal problems down the line. I have to wonder about Terry's husband and I have to wonder if the truth about him will ever come out. I think that there is a LOT more to this situation than anybody ever found out, I suspect that a lot may have been hidden. It may be that we will have to wait until the end times when he and others involved in that situation, stand before the Great White Throne, facing our Lord Jesus Christ before we know exactly what happened, however, someday, somehow, justice will be done.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1665 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Jun 16th, 2008 05:12 pm |
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Hi Jill,
Dave, you gotta be kidding!!! You are a tenacious bulldog!! You would have lasted 5 minutes only if, within 4 minutes and 59 seconds, you had utterly silenced this silly woman.
I don't suffer fools easily at all, and I am very protective and aware of the time I spend on anything. If I sense that a person is utterly closed-minded, I have neither the patience nor the time. Paul says repeatedly to avoid the vain and futile conversation. That's one reason of many why I love working on this board, because people are open-minded and willing to hear in the first place.
Now, I hasten to add that this is my own level of tolerance (and perhaps a fault as well). I would never say that no one should ever try to reason with a fool or someone with a profoundly closed mind. Someone obviously has to try to get through to them. But that someone ain't me! 
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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kersca
Member
| Joined: | Fri May 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 66 |
| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 16th, 2008 07:50 pm |
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This past week my Knights of Columbus Troop presented a check to an organization that works with kids that are born blind and developmentally delayed (tootsie roll drive monies). Imagine a 13 year old... blind... with the mental age af aninfant. That's the kind of kids they work with. They have 30 kids there from all over Michigan and they sty overnight Monday through Friday. Now, many people would say that they don't deserve to live. They will never speak, never use the bathroom by themselves, etc... Well, I guess I was proud to be a Knight and a Catholic because we look out for those poor souls that can't look out for themselves. I was thinking of bringing my 12 year old daughter there. She needs to see that all life has value. Maybe they are there and sick people suffer to allow us the opportunity to care for them. When mother Theresa picked up a man with leprosy, people thought she was crazy. Sure, as crazy as Jesus was when he showed love and compassion to the sick.
Adam
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Jun 20th, 2008 05:37 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: Patients who are terminally ill under hospice care are medicated, they are not force fed but neither are they refused food or fluids. I pointed out that for a terminally ill person who's body is shutting down then they do lose desire for food and water but a healthy person's body isn't actively shutting down so to starve them of food and fluids is a long protracted death.
Let me mention here that in my experience as a hospice chaplain, a terminally ill hospice patient who is not in the final stages of his/her disease is provided nutrition and hydration, even through a tube if necessary. Only in the last phase, once the dying process has begun and (as you say) the body has begun to shut down vital functions, are nutrition and hydration withheld.
It is possible that the withholding of hydration may hasten the dying process by hours or days, but the course is already determined by the progression of the disease, and is acceptable under Catholic teaching. Pain medication may also hasten the dying process if it is necessary to reduce suffering during the last portion of a person's life. The intention is not to cause death but to relieve suffering, and the outcome is already determined.
Euthanasia is different. It is the intentional taking of a life, regardless of a person's physical condition. There is a considerable difference between providing comfort during a person's final moments and choosing to end life. And when the difference is not hours but possibly years, the difference is not mercy but murder.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Fri Jun 20th, 2008 07:35 pm |
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| You know what I have trouble understanding is that some of the same people who are pushing Euthanesia are the same ones who would scream the loudest if you tried to tell them that the children starving to death in 3rd world countries "don't feel pain from starving to death" - Somehow those kids feel itc(which they do- no question) but someone elderly or disabled, or diagnosed with a terminal condition won't?. I don't mean someone who is in the process of actively dying- but someone in the early stages of a disease.
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 973 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Jun 21st, 2008 05:03 am |
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| Apparently the invincibly ignorant are not only becoming more prevalent, but also more invincibly ignorant in the most incredulously insensitive ways. To deny the suffering of a starving person, that defies nearly all medical commonsense because one of the cruelest forms of death is starvation. S.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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