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MissMusicTeacher
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| Joined: | Mon Jun 30th, 2008 |
| Location: | Silicon Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 24 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | EVFree, Catholic seeker |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 02:25 am |
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While I have been out of town, I have been thinking a lot about the relationship between faith and works and about the Protestant doctrine of sola fide - faith alone. I came up with a statement that summarizes my beliefs about faith and works, from a Protestant point of view. Then, I read Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary (http://haydock1859.tripod.com/) - particularly Romans 3:28, James 2:14-26, Ephesians 2:8-9, and several other verses in which the commentator explains the role of works and faith. The more I read, the more excited I became, because I realized that I think I already hold a Catholic view of this doctrine! I never saw it so plainly before... Is this consistent with Catholic doctrine; it seems to me that it is:
Works are evidence of faith, and thus faith without works is no faith at all. Works cannot earn salvation or God's favor, but without them faith is dead (James 2:24, 26). Works alone are insufficient, but faith also is insufficient, for it says quite plainly that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin and are closely linked together. They cannot be separated.
When I realized this, I could hardly sleep that night. I kept wondering how on earth I could have held this view for so many years (I have believed this for as long as I can remember) without ever questioning the doctrine of faith alone! I still have questions about this doctrine and the way that it all works together, but I am thrilled to think that - hopefully - I am in agreement with at least this one Catholic doctrine. 
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out of town until August 2
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Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 02:35 am |
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Congrats, Laura! 
I'm sure you are already in agreement with many Catholic doctrines.
You're not limited to this one.
Have you been through the Compendium yet, putting a mark in the margin by those items you reject/question? Some of your pages will have no margin marks at all.
Grace and peace,
Becky
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"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 306 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 02:44 am |
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| That sounds pretty close to the truth to me. One of Luther's greatest heresies was to separate faith from works. The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace through faith, and the faith that receives this grace is also a gift of grace. However this "saving faith" is "faith that worketh in love" or "the obedience of faith" as described by Paul in Romans. It is not simply a "stated" or "believing" or "head" faith. According to the scriptures even the demons believe in God, and, not all those who cry out "Lord, Lord" will be saved. In the passages in Romans in which Paul says we are saved by faith and not "works of the law" he is referring to "faith that worketh in love". The "works of the law" he refers to are works of the Torah or ceremonial works done outside of grace, from a pure heart and love. James clarifies this understanding in accordance with much of the content of your statement. Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 02:45 am by tedjenczewski
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2260 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 12:21 pm |
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Yes, Laura, you do understand. Over and over again, you will find that the Protestant mind characterizes its doctrines in either/or fashion — in this instance, either faith or works, splitting man down the middle, separating his head from his heart, his body from his soul — while Catholic doctrine specifically embraces the terms equally and holistically — both/and — as here, faith and works functioning symbiotically, involving the whole man, head and heart, inward and outward man, body and soul together, in the singular and unified act of faith.
David
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1845 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 14th, 2008 08:15 pm |
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To be fair to both Luther and Protestants, they do make a formal separation of faith and works (the justification vs. sanctification distinction), and I think this is wrong and of harmful effect, and have written much against it.
On the other hand, the best, most thoughtful Protestants (including Luther and Calvin) do nevertheless associate good works very closely to faith, as its inevitable fruit. Thus there is little practical difference: it's mostly abstract theological difference. I've documented many statements from Martin Luther along these lines (Calvin has stated similarly as well):
Martin Luther on Sanctification and the Absolute Necessity of Good Works as the Proof of Authentic Faith
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2260 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 02:04 am |
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There is little practical difference [between the lived Protestant and Catholic positions]: it's mostly abstract theological difference.
Good point; I’ve often observed this. And when someone points it out to the Protestant, his response is often “Huh?” because his theology contradicts what he is actually doing.
David
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5453 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 02:36 am |
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I think the whole issue is summed up quite well in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification between the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church (and later accepted by the Methodist Church as well).
25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God's gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
Of course, there are significant differences explained in the document, but on the basic question of faith and works, an agreement was reached that we are justified by faith, but that faith must be active and productive.
Works do not earn justification; works are the result of justification.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BeProf
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:21 pm |
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I think a lot of the confusion results from imprecise usage of the term Justification.
To most christians, Justification means "forgiveness." How can I have my sins forgiven? In that sense, we Protestants believe that we are justified by faith alone. Christ stands willing, ready, and able to forgive us for our sins. All He asks of us in return is that we trust in Him.
There is another sense of the word, however, and that is "proof" or "evidence." If I believe that I am in Christ, what evidence can I show to justify that belief? In that sense of the word, we Protestants believe that you need works as well as faith. If I were someone's Pastor (and let us all take a moment to thank God that I'm not) and that someone were living unrepentantly in some serious sin and if I were to challenge that person on that fact and show them that what they're doing is fundamentally incompatible with the life of a christian and that person were to say to me, "Chilax, Rev! I'm saved! Christ will forgive me for this!" Well... in that case... I'd have to question whether or not such a person was really a christian at all. They may have some kind of rudimentary faith, but probably not a faith that can really save them. The may believe in a Jesus but they don't believe in the *real* Jesus.
The former is, obviously, a real substantive difference between Protestants and Catholics. That's not just semantics. The differences are, perhaps, not as great as we once thought they were but they're still great and they're still there. The later, however, I think is something we can all agree on. We may not be able to agree on all the nuts and bolts of Salvation, but we can at least agree that Joe Heathen who lives like the Devil on Saturday and St. Francis on Sunday is kidding himself when he thinks he's home free.
My fear is that, short of God lighting some bushes on fire, our differences won't be settled this side of Eternity. Ultimately, I'd rather see disunity than a false unity based on chucking orthodoxy in favor of the least common denominator. My hope is in the fact that we serve a wonderful God who's alive and well. His Holy Spirit is active and moving in the hearts and minds of Christians everywhere. As the song says, God can make a way where there seems to be no way. My sincere prayer is that He will so move in His Church.
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