 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Christine
Member
| Joined: | Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 3 |
| First Name: | Christine | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon(barely), Catholic, Buddhist(!), Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:25 am |
|
Hi,
I have difficulties with understanding faith/works. As you can see I'm presently Lutheran (WELS) and it's taught that works are a manifestation of our faith; we have faith and subsequently start doing good works as a fruit of faith.
When my husband and I were still going through our strife of what church to belong to (long story, not relevant here) and I was trying to convince him of the Catholic faith, his argument was something like "How can you be saved by works as well as faith, because how many works do you have to do? How do you quantify that? How do you ever know that you're saved?" I couldn't really answer that. I understand that faith and works seem to be like two sides of the coin. I know about all the verses that show that you have to obey God as well as have faith. Lutherans, as far as I can tell you from my experience, explain those verses in a way that verify that you're going to show works if you have true faith. And that any little thing will be a good work, in your own way and form of talents that God has given you. That you don't have to become a Mother Teresa, etc.
So, in different posts that I've read on here, people are constantly concerned with whether they think they're saved or not. They mention things like they feel better "right after confession" or not so sure "if I haven't attended Mass in a while" as quantifiers of when they feel they're saved or not. Well, I'm simplifying greatly, so forgive me if I am not getting heavily into their own situations.
What seems to be the way to look at this whole thing is this. If we don't do the works that we think we should be doing, do we receive forgiveness for our constant failings in this area if we ask for it? Can I say with some confidence that I am right with God if I try my best to be a good Christian and always ask forgiveness for my shortcomings which will never go away?
In other words, is it like this: that it's not "how many works do I do to be saved" but that "I'm doing the best I can as much as I can" and forgiveness is for those (constant) times that I fall short?
During my *brief* involvement with the Mormons, as soon as we started to attend, they started heaping responsibilities on us; it seemed like "OK, now you're one of us, here's what you have to do" which was very off-putting to me. I don't want to belong to the Church if the same thing is going to happen. You have to want to do good works, having the right attitude instead of being "forced", right?
Anything you guys could share with me to help me through this, would be great!
God's blessings!
____________________
Christine
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5157 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 02:41 am |
|
Might I suggest you begin your search for information by reading the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification between the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church, which has also been accepted by the Methodists?
To quote from that document:
Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
Works are our response to God's grace. Through our good works, we draw closer to God and farther from the world. Through our bad works (sin), we draw away from God and closer to the world. So works do influence our salvation because they affect how we accept or reject God's freely given gift of grace.
God gives us ample grace to save us. It is up to us to accept or reject God's grace. Through our works, we become a larger or smaller "receptacle" for grace.
If I am selfish and sinful, but have faith, maybe I can accept as much grace as a thimble. By being unselfish and taking care of the least of God's people, my "receptacle" might grow to the size of a bathtub. God still fills me with grace, but my actions in following God's will have increased my capacity.
Faith without works is a bell without a clapper. Even Satan knows that Jesus is the Son of God.
If you want to know Jesus' "recipe" for salvation, read Matthew 25:31-46.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
setapart
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 117 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 03:05 am |
|
Hello Christine,
I can understand your concerns regarding faith and works. I will defer comments on this by presenting to you some website links concerning this subject. The first one is from Dave Armstrong who is one of the moderators of this forum: The link contains several blogs from different sources and includes some dialogues between Catholics and Protestants.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/salvation-justification-faith-alone.html
The second link is from a neat website by David MacDonald a Catholic musician who plays with many evangelical musicians. His website was created to build a bridge of understanding between Catholics and Protestants. I have pasted a link to an article that is relevant to what you are concerned about. David presents the Catholic side in very easy to read articles on many subjects that Protestants are concerned about. I found this website very helpful to me over the years when I was seeking out the CC.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/faith_vs_works.htm
I hope this helps.
God Bless,
Bill
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
|
|
|
japhy
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 182 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 04:55 pm |
|
It can be seen in parables that faith in Jesus isn't necessarily enough. Matthew 25 is has three good examples: the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, the parable of the talents, and the parable of the sheep and the goats.
The wise and foolish virgins both know the bridegroom and go to meet him, but something separates the two groups: the wise have oil for their lamps, the foolish do not. Church Father commentary sees the oil as representative of good works and right living that fuel our lamps of faith.
All three servants received talents from their master (whom they knew), but only those who received and made use of the talents were rewarded; the other one was punished.
The sheep are those who ministered to others, and thus to the Lord. The goats are those who failed to minister to others and are surprised that in doing so, they failed to minister to the Lord.
Knowledge of the Lord (the "bridegroom", the "master", and the "Son of Man") was not enough for the foolish virgins, the "worthless servant", and the goats. Something more was required of them.
Another interesting parable example is the wedding feast, as told in Matthew 22:8-14. Someone who was called to the wedding feast did not show up in the proper attire, and was therefore cast out. "Many are called, but few are chosen" from those who are called. The invitation to the wedding feast did not include wedding attire for each invitee: there was something that guest neglected to do to prepare himself for the feast.
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
|
|
|
Didi
Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 174 |
| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic; almost left; Now an On-Fire Catholic! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 07:04 pm |
|
Jesus Himself said: "Thus you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of the Father" (Matt. 7:20-21)
If we are Christian in name only, don't live a Christian life (which would mean doing good works), then our faith is dead. "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." (James 2:28)
We don't have to "keep track" of good works we do, just simply live each day for the Lord and respond to His call when we are given the opportunity. Even something as simple as smiling at someone at the store, letting a car merge in front of you, helping a neighbor, etc., are all ways that we show the love of God and treat others as we would like to be treated.
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1509 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 08:24 pm |
|
Hi Christine,
Practically speaking (as I've often noted; again very recently), Lutheran and Catholic teaching as to the necessity and spiritual benefit of good works amounts to the same thing: both teach that good works ought to be present in a Christian's life, if he or she has authentic faith.
The difference is a more abstract, strictly theological one: Lutherans formally separate sanctification from justification (what they mean by faith alone), whereas Catholics join them together in an organic relationship. We also deny imputed justification, where God declares a person justified (Lutheran teaching) and believe in imparted or infused justification (that part of justification that Lutherans would separate from salvation and call sanctification).
I think a quick way to illustrate the difference in Catholic thinking from Lutheran (and general Protestant) belief is a fictional dialogue I wrote back in 1995. It was fairly easy for me to write, because just six years before I wrote it, I would have argued exactly like the Protestant contributor:
===========================================
Martin [Protestant]: It baffles me, Joe, how you Catholics can believe you're saved by works, when the Bible says "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn 3:16).
Joe [Catholic]: We don't. Let me explain. First of all, belief in Christ means also to obey Him. This is shown in passages where the opposite of belief is disobedience, such as in 1 Pet 2:7 and Jn 3:36, where "believeth not" (KJV) is often translated "does not obey." *
* e.g., NASB, RSV, NEB
Martin: But Paul says "by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works . . ." (Eph 2:8-9).
Joe: We Catholics agree that salvation is completely the result of God's grace. We condemned the heresy Pelagianism, which denied this, way back in in the 6th century.* However, the Bible doesn't separate the "works of faith" (Gal 5:6, 1 Thess 1:3, 2 Thess 1:11), preceded and caused by grace, from salvation. It only condemns self-righteous "works" done apart from grace and faith.
* 2nd Council of Orange, 529 A.D.
Martin: Aw, come on! You can't prove that from the Bible!
Joe: Quite the contrary, Martin! The Bible clearly teaches that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (Jas 2:24; cf. 1:21-27, 2:14-26). St. Paul tells us to "work out your own salvation . . . for it is God which worketh in you . . ." (Phil 2:12-13; cf. 1 Cor 3:8-9, 15:10). We will be judged after death based on our merit and works, which will determine our reward (Mt 16:27, Rom 2:5-13). But all our works derive their merit from Jesus' work on our behalf. Martin Luther introduced "faith alone," which is foreign to St. Paul and the Bible.
Martin: God merely declares us righteous, even though we're still sinners, since our righteousness is like "filthy rags" (Is 64:6). We can do nothing whatsoever to help save ourselves. Only Jesus' blood covering up our sin (Rom 5:9) accounts for anything in God's eyes.
Joe: Again, that's Luther's novel interpretation, because he denied our free will altogether. Our good works aren't worthless because they are derived, and flow from Jesus' work for us. Man didn't become a worm in God's eyes because of the Fall of Adam and Eve. This is another falsehood begun by Luther: that is, because God is absolutely holy, therefore man must be utterly evil. This is contrary to the biblical teaching that man was created in God's image (Gen 1:26-7). The Bible's whole thrust is that God makes us holy when we freely follow Him. When referring to God's removal of our sin, it uses words such as "cleansed" (1 Jn 1:7,9), purged" (Heb 1:3), "blotted out" (Acts 3:19), "wash away" (Acts 22:16), and "new creature" (2 Cor 5:17).
Martin: That's sanctification, not justification. Now you're mixing apples and oranges. Protestants strongly urge doing good works, but these cannot and do not have anything to do with salvation.
Joe: So works are sort of like "Brownie points" with God?
Martin: [laughs] Well, I think the Catholic view is much more like "Brownie points" than ours! We think that good works will get you more rewards in heaven, but they can't help you get to heaven.
Joe: I think St. Paul would disagree with that. He doesn't set up this false dichotomy between faith and works which Protestantism created. He says that Christians are simultaneously "washed, sanctified, and justified" (1 Cor 6:11; cf. 1:30), and that the "doers of the law shall be justified" (Rom 2:13). In Romans 5:18-19, he says that "justification" is being "made righteous," just as through Adam's disobedience, we were "made sinners." Since sin is actual, so is righteousness. Justification is not merely an external and legal declaration, but a real change. Luther was wrong.
Martin: But don't Catholics ever know that they've been saved (1 Jn 5:13)? Isn't that being in constant bondage?
Joe: The only assurance in Scripture is that of obedience (Mt 25:31-46, 7:16-27). There are many warnings against falling away from salvation (Gal 4:9, Col 1:23, 1 Tim 1:19, 4:1, Heb 3:12-14, 12:14-15, 2 Pet 2:20-21, Rev 2:4-5). For St. Paul, salvation is like a marathon (1 Cor 9:24-27). One must be disciplined and trained, lest he be disqualified and become a castaway on the Last Day. So salvation is a lifelong process, not just a matter of one-time repentance. St. Paul stresses this again and again.
Martin: Well, I must admit you've given me a lot of Scripture verses to ponder. I always thought that Catholics couldn't come up with any biblical support for their views, especially concerning salvation. If you guys don't believe in salvation by works, maybe we're not as different as it is made out, and are indeed brothers in Christ. That's really good news! Thanks for sharing this information with me.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Current time is 10:09 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
