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Jimmy Brousseau
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| Joined: | Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Jimmy | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Baptized as a Roman Catholic at ten days old. ... |
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 05:37 pm |
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Are we Saved by “Faith Alone” or “Faith and Good Works”?
Simply put; “good works” means, doing those things that are pleasing to God.
What Christian is apposed to doing those things that are pleasing to God?
So, what is the opposite of “good works”?
The opposite of “good works” would be, doing those things that are not pleasing to God or failing to do what is pleasing to God.
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If you believe that we are not judged by our “good works”, then please answer these 5 questions:
1. If “good works”, physical acts (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, Then why do “Born Again” Christians recite the “Born Again” prayer? Isn’t reciting the “sinners” prayer, a physical act or an act of “good works”? Isn’t this act performed prior to one receiving “God’s grace”? Reciting the “Born Again” prayer would definitely be, “good works”.
2. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do we baptize and why are we Baptized? Isn’t Baptism a physical act or an act of “good works”?
The act of Baptism is definitely an act of “good works”.
3. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do non-Catholic, Christians even bother with funeral ceremonies? Why do Christian Pastors read or recite prayers at funerals? Isn’t a funeral ceremony a physical act or an act of “good works”?
Funeral ceremonies are definitely an act of “good works”.
4. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do non-Catholic, Christians even bother with “wedding ceremonies” (Holy Matrimony), isn’t a wedding ceremony an act of “good works”?
Wedding ceremonies are definitely an act of “good works”.
5. If “good works” (doing those things which are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, because our Salvation is “guaranteed”, then why is it necessary for us to pray, read the Bible, go to Church on the Sabbath, avoid sin, forgive, love and asked to be forgiven?
Aren’t all these, all acts of “good works”?
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Please let me know if you disagree with my comments, thank you. Last edited on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 06:14 pm by Jimmy Brousseau
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Yours in Christ,
Jimmy Brousseau
"Fidei defensor"
(I am a Roman Catholic)
CAF- http://forums.catholic.com/member.php?u=16038 /
Blog- http://jimbrousseau.blogspot.com/
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 253 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 01:22 am |
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You will be interested in the topic posted here by Dave Armstrong: http://www.chnetwork.org/forums/forum20/3255.html
Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. I went to your web site and found your discussion of the brothers of Jesus" paricularly informative.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Jimmy Brousseau
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| Joined: | Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Jimmy | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Baptized as a Roman Catholic at ten days old. ... |
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 06:53 am |
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tedjenczewski wrote: You will be interested in the topic posted here by Dave Armstrong: http://www.chnetwork.org/forums/forum20/3255.html
Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. I went to your web site and found your discussion of the brothers of Jesus" paricularly informative.
Hello tedjenczewski,
Thank you, I will. I have two of Dave Armstrong’s books, I like him, and he is an excellent Catholic Apologist and author. I have an extensive ‘Catholic” library and he is one of my favorite Catholic authors.
Since you are referring me to his web site (which I already have in my "Favorites"), then I am sure that you have also read his books, if not; I would recommend that you read “The Catholic Verses” and “A Biblical Defense of Catholicism”, these are both excellent books.
I enjoyed reading both, however I liked “A Biblical Defense of Catholicism” more; so much so, I am just about half way through my second reading of it.
As for a my article on the 'So-called" Brothers of Jesus, (BTW, I am a terrible writer) I am a little disappointed that there isn’t more in the way of Biblical evidence, provided by many modern Catholic Apologists, to support and defend Catholic positions, like the fact; that Jesus did not have biological brothers, when it is clearly apparent in the Bible.
That is why, even though I am a terrible writer, I felt compelled to write what I did. I would read it in the bible and then purchase yet another Catholic Apology book, to find a small handful of verses on this topic and others, when I knew that there existed much more.
One of these days, modern Catholic Apologists will catch up with the desire of Catholics like me, who have discovered that the Bible is a "Catholic" book, and use more biblical evidence to support and defend the Catholic faith. I have discovered the entire Bible supports Catholicism, when understood and viewed in context.
God Bless YouLast edited on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 06:59 am by Jimmy Brousseau
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Yours in Christ,
Jimmy Brousseau
"Fidei defensor"
(I am a Roman Catholic)
CAF- http://forums.catholic.com/member.php?u=16038 /
Blog- http://jimbrousseau.blogspot.com/
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Kim M.
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 442 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Assembly again, PCA, ... |
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 04:15 pm |
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Hey Jimmy, I admire your zeal!
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"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 253 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 02:02 am |
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| God bless you Jimmy. The link is to a thread on this site. I have read "A Biblical Defense...." and am now working my way through the 11 downloads that Dave offers on his web site. By the way, It might interest you that I just bought a used Suzuki Boulevard to ride around on in my old age.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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hpj0828
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| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 141 |
| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer, Hebrew Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 07:20 pm |
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In Biblical thought, faith and faithfulness (both translated by the same Hebrew word emunah ) are inseparable. There is no faithfulness to God, without faith being present. Likewise, wherever true faith is present, the one who possesses it will express his gratitude to God by being faithful to his commandments.
Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation, basically as a result of inadequate Hebrew skills! The text that convinced him that the just are saved by faith alone (without works) was Habakkuk 2:4 which reads in Hebrew:
"V'zaddik b'emunato yichyeh" which is literally:
V'zaddik -- And (the) righteous one
b'emunato -- by his faith (or his faithfulness)
yichyeh -- shall live
In other words, the Hebrew is fundamentally ambiguous. It can be translated either as "faith" or "faithfulness" -- that is either by trusting or by being obedient. This ambiguity reflects that fact that Jewish thought never distinguished these two ideas. Faith and faithfulness are two sides of the same coin. You cannot have one without the other.
Another ambiguity in the Hebrew is to whom does the pronoun "his" refer?
Does it refer to some general and unnamed believer or servant of God?
Or, does it refer to a particular person, ie. to the Messiah?
Consider Brenton's English translation of the Greek Septuagint version of Habakkuk 2:3-4:
3 For the vision is yet for a time, and it shall shoot forth at the end, and not in vain: though he should tarry, wait for him; {1} for he will surely come, and will not tarry. {1) Heb 10:37–39}
4 If {1} he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but {2} the just shall live by {3} my faith. {1) Or, any man; See Heb 10:38. 2) Ro 1:17 3) Or, faith in me}
In this passage, "he" refers to the Messiah. The NT cites this passage in Hebrews 10:37-39 and Romans 1:17. There, it is clear that the passage cited refers to the Messiah, the erchomenos, The Coming One, a title of the Messiah. So the NT agrees with the Septuagint view of this verse.
Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls provide evidence that the Essenes viewed Habakkuk 2:3-4 as a prophecy of the Messiah. This is clear from their Habakkuk Commentary found among the scrolls. The Essenes viewed the "he" of this passage as their "Teacher of Righteousness" a Messiah-like leader of their movement, whose every word they revered as authoritative.
So then, there are six possible interpretations of the same Hebrew phrase cited above:
1. The righteous one (an ordinary human being), by his trust in God, shall live.
2. The righteous one (an ordinary human being), by his faithful obedience to God, shall live.
3. The righteous one (the Messiah), by his (the Messiah's) trust in God, shall live.
4. The righteous one (the Messiah), by his (the Messiah's) faithful obediece to God, shall live.
5. The righteous one (an ordinary human being), by his (the Messiah's) trust in God, shall live.
6. The righteous one (an ordinary human being), by his (the Messiah's) faithful obedience to God, shall live.
In fact, all of these statements are theologically true. Together, they show the richness of a theological thought in Hebrew, in which a single statement has a depth that cannot be translated into a single statement in English.
Does this help?
Henry
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HPJ
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Kim M.
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 442 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Assembly again, PCA, ... |
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 07:49 pm |
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Very interesting! Thanks for sharing that, Henry. 
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"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1657 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 08:40 pm |
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Thanks to Jimmy for his very kind words. Here are some papers of mine along these lines:
More "Catholic Verses" and Biblical Defenses of Catholicism: On Sanctification as Part of Salvation, and Merit and "Doing Something For Salvation" (+ Discussion)
Dialogue: "Doing Something" for Salvation
Catholic-Baptist Dialogue on "Being Good Enough" to Go to Heaven, etc.
Soteriology and Creation (Man's Cooperation, Pelagianism, Nature and Grace)
1 Corinthians 3:9 and Man's Cooperation With God
Dialogue With Two Protestants on the Catholic Doctrine of Merit
Merit: Catholic Doctrine vs. Caricature (James McCarthy's Distortions)
Did the Council of Trent Teach That Man is Saved By His Own Works?
Reflections on Faith and Works and Initial Justification
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Jackie
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| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 122 |
| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 11:49 pm |
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Hey Jimmy welcome to the forum.
Checked out your blogspot. I liked the Baptism section.
At the bottom of your blog was a site (I thought it was your linking me to somewhere else) that also addressed "Jesus Baptism, so I clicked on it. WHEW, not sure that was Catholic but interesting none the less. :?
Is google allowed to advertise "other relatable sites" on peoples personal blog sites? I'm a freshman in this cyberworld so I don't know much.
Looking forward to your input on CHN
Jackie
Oh yeah, MHO is Faith and works go hand n hand.
And Henry, I loved your explaination. Sooo helpful
Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 11:52 pm by Jackie
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germangreek
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | Lansing, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| First Name: | Richard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, (Charismatic and still) Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 01:46 am |
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| What is striking to me and my friends in our patristics study group is how utterly alien the faith/works dichotomy is to the first thousand or so years of Christian thought. It really never seems to have occurred to our early brethren that one could follow Christ with one but not the other.
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"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 02:04 am |
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germangreek wrote:
What is striking to me and my friends in our patristics study group is how utterly alien the faith/works dichotomy is to the first thousand or so years of Christian thought. It really never seems to have occurred to our early brethren that one could follow Christ with one but not the other.
Right you are, Richard. Recently, in working through the book of Acts, I discovered in the Navarre Bible Commentary an interesting citation from Origen, from the 3rd century. Here it is:
Acts 20:21. This very brief summary of Paul’s preaching to Jews and pagans mentions repentance and faith as inseparable elements in the new life Jesus confers on Christians. “It is good to know,” Origen writes, “that we will be judged at the divine judgment seat not on our faith alone, as if we had not to answer for our conduct; nor on our conduct alone, as if our faith were not to be scrutinized. What justifies is our uprightness on both scores, and if we are short on either we shall deserve punishment” (Dialogue with Heraclides, 8).
This is the earliest clear patristic statement of the principle of “both/and” with regard to faith and works that I have seen.
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