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jacki
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| Joined: | Sun Oct 7th, 2007 |
| Location: | Essex, England, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 72 |
| First Name: | jacki | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | baptised in the church of england (I am a brit) ... |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 08:25 pm |
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not sure if is the right thread place
7 - 10
I run a brownie pack in the parish - 24 little girls aged 7 -10
here in the UK a rather prominant kids tv presenter killed himself by hanging last week at the end of our meetings we gather in a circle and ask for the prayers of others. One of the girls asked that we pray for Mark, 2 girls immediatiely launched into suicide being a sin and how he was going to hell - lots of the little ones look bemused. I asked for hush and explained that Mark was very sad and that sometimes people are so sad they make the wrong choices I asked that they remember that God loves Mark and we should pray that he is safe and that his family are helped - they seemed satisfied and with the parents outside waiting to pick them up I didn't have the time or the inclination to go into great detail. I know this will come up again , do you have any advise on how to handle this or to point out any glaring gaps I may have made ?
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 09:17 pm |
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Sounds like you handled it perfectly to me. You can remind them that Jesus told us not to judge, and that even sinners need our prayers. By saying that, you're not saying whether or not he sinned, but that prayer is never a bad thing.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 616 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 09:54 pm |
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| My wife and other social work and mental health people I have known have tended to regard people who commit suicide as having "mental illness". While some people may commit suicide with a clear mind, many who do that have gone into a deep state of depression which needs treatment. While we cannot know what Mark, the TV presenter, was thinking, he could very well have gone into such a deep state of depression that he just could not pull out of it with out help and, as it happened, the help he needed just may not have been readily available to him at the time. Anyway, that is one angle for explaining it that some use. Even so, like CajunRick, I too think that you did a good job of explaining it. And prayer never hurts. One thing that I have loved about the Catholic and Anglican churches is that they still remember those who have passed through death in prayer and observe that we are "...surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses."
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Didi
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 182 |
| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic; almost left; Now an On-Fire Catholic! |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 10:24 pm |
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I think you did a great job, too!
When I was just out of high school a friend committed suicide. Our dear priest at the time explained it very well.
Fr. Jim said that our brains are like computers -- they process all the information we take in and then spit out answers. Sometimes our brains aren't processing correctly. The information taken in is skewed, and the only answer that comes from processing all the data is to escape. It's a faulty answer, but the person with the faulty brain doesn't know this.
When this happens (and not when someone deliberately commits suicide for vindictive reasons) God knows that the computer brain is faulty, and He will have mercy and compassion on that person. This is why we should continue to pray for them. We have had the misfortune of knowing several others who have taken their own lives, and these words from our priest have helped us through each one.
This is also why so many times the person who commits suicide never thinks about what happens afterwards -- who will find them, how it will affect their friends and family, etc. The only thing they can focus on is escape from whatever pain they are trying to deal with. In fact, many people who commit suicide think they are doing their friends and family a favor; that they are causing them more pain by being alive.
I have an aunt who committed suicide in her early 40s. Her adult daughter did the same at about the same age, after saying many times that she would never do to her daughters what her Mom did to her and her sisters. There may be some genetic disposition to depression or other mental illnesses that lead to despair and suicide.
Maybe the computer analogy will help the girls. May God's Mercy and Grace shower Mark that he may have hope of eternal life; and may Our Lord give strength and consolation to all who are mourning.
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foundthelight
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| Joined: | Thu Mar 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Central, New York USA |
| Posts: | 34 |
| First Name: | Willis | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Ex Calvinist/Reformed. Roman Rite Catholic as of 3/22/08! |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 10:56 pm |
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You did well.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 11:45 am |
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jacki wrote: 2 girls immediatiely launched into suicide being a sin and how he was going to hell
I think we need to remember that these little girls are parroting what they've heard at home and at church. I don't think a Brownie pack meeting is a place to challenge the beliefs of parents and pastors of 7-10 year old girls.
Children's simple questions need simple answers. "He must have been very sad, and maybe he was sick. Let's pray that God forgives him, and helps his family and especially his children who must miss him very much."
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 12:16 pm |
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I think you handled it perfectly.
A coworker, also named Mark, killed himself a few years ago. He suffered from severe depression all of his adult life. He tried all the drugs, all the treatments. Nothing helped. He left us a note which was labeled, "the note everyone has been expecting" which was very sweet and touching. We don't know the purpose of our suffering. What became clear was that Mark had a great ministry while he was here, even though he wouldn't have called it that, he was not a church-goer. At his memorial dozens of people came who he had rescued from drug addiction. He used to hang around a coffee bar place and just talk and this became his ministry.
We never know what God has in store for us.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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jacki
Member
| Joined: | Sun Oct 7th, 2007 |
| Location: | Essex, England, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 72 |
| First Name: | jacki | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | baptised in the church of england (I am a brit) ... |
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 07:18 pm |
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thanks for all of your responses. I am a mental health nurse who works with addicts. I can explain the theories etc but generally dont have these conversations with children. Mark killed himself after finding his gilfriend dead several months ago, both had been using alcohol and cocaine. I suppose I should have considered the fact that the girls may bring it up but for some reason didn't. So I was caught a little of guard by the prayer request and shocked b the responses.
Unfortunately I had a call today from one of the parents asking why I didn't point out it was a sin. I placated her as best I could. I have spoken to our priest and to the school who have all said what you guys have. There is a Mass at school this week and the head is going to make a point of praying for Mark and explaining why we should. I think its so sad that this parents rigid views are being passed down and hope that the communitys combined influence may have an effect.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1657 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 07:45 pm |
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The Church definitely doesn't teach that a person automatically goes to hell if they commit suicide. No one knows their eternal destiny.
Suicide is objectively a mortal sin, yes. But for a person to be culpable for subjectively committing a mortal sin, they have to have full consent of the will and sufficient knowledge. The will is clearly the aspect that is not "normal" in the case of a suicide. A person that severely distraught is not fully in control of his or her will.
God understands despair and having no hope. He is infinitely loving and merciful. We can count on Him to be both loving and just to every person who has committed suicide. We can and must trust that God judges fairly.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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