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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 03:49 am |
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I was earlier reading a news item about problems with pornography and promiscuity, etc. The thought occurred to me and I thought I would ask about it here. Let us say a parishioner comes to the confessional and tells his/her Priest that they have been viewing pornography online or looking at pornographic magazines or watching pornographic movies. What sort of sin would this be categorized as being and what sort of discipline would the Priest prescribe? Let's further say a young person comes in and confesses that they have had sex outside of marriage. What sort of sin is that and what would be done about it? Same question for a parishioner who is married and has committed adultery.
Also, recently some college students, at Virginia Commonwealth University and the College of William and Mary brought into their campuses a show involving so called "sex workers". This being Virginia, a major objection was raised to it (appropriately I feel) by various community leaders and Members of our legislature. If any of the students involved with bringing the show to campus were Catholics, would they, I assume, be guilty of a sexual sin? How about any Catholic students who attended the program? NOT, of course, that any Catholic students WOULD be involved with that, ha, ha  , however, hypothetically speaking, if they were, what would a Priest do if they confessed it at church in the confessional?
Thanks for any information. I was just wondering about the above and wondered how it would be regarded in the eyes of the church and what would be done.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 03:25 pm |
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First of all, Marshall, let me say that it is not our purpose here to judge "sin". The Catholic Church teaches that in order for a sin to be grave ("mortal") it must be a serious matter that is committed knowingly and willingly, so mortal sin by its very nature is subjective. What is a mortal sin for you might not be a mortal sin for me, and circumstances definitely influence the nature of sin. The situations you proscribe may well be mortal sins, or not, depending on the individuals and the circumstances.
EMarshallBuckles wrote: I was earlier reading a news item about problems with pornography and promiscuity, etc. The thought occurred to me and I thought I would ask about it here. Let us say a parishioner comes to the confessional and tells his/her Priest that they have been viewing pornography online or looking at pornographic magazines or watching pornographic movies. What sort of sin would this be categorized as being and what sort of discipline would the Priest prescribe?
It is not the priest's purpose to proscribe "discipline". That's not the purpose of a penance. He attempts to provide spiritual counseling and guidance to help a person see the error of their ways, and to repent and experience a change of heart.
There are many questions that would have to be asked. All pornography is evil, but there is a significant difference between looking at pictures in a commercially available magazine and seeking out pictures of children. There are differences in the individual as well. Is he single and living alone, or married in a house full of children? Is he spending money that should rightfully belong to his family, and taking attention away from his wife and children?
So the questions you ask are not as simple as they seem. The priest's task is to determine how the sin has affected the individual, and to provide the guidance and a penance that will help the sinner turn away from sin and toward Jesus. And the first step in making that determination is discovering the depth of sin in which the sinner is involved.
Let's further say a young person comes in and confesses that they have had sex outside of marriage. What sort of sin is that and what would be done about it? Same question for a parishioner who is married and has committed adultery.
This may seem like the same question but it isn't. While premarital sex is wrong, adultery involves breaking a sacred vow and threatening a marriage and a family. Sin is always greater when the consequences extend beyond the individual. As a married man, I would not only be breaking a commandment and sinning against God, but also betraying my wife and her trust in me if I would ever cheat on her. Ross Perot once said he would fire any of his corporate officers who had an affair, because he couldn't trust any man whose wife couldn't trust him.
It's hard to imagine a circumstance in which adultery would not be a mortal sin, and others may argue that sex outside of marriage is always a mortal sin, but I don't want to judge the sinfulness of others for the reasons I gave above.
As to an appropriate penance, the sinner's first obligation is to make restitution. How can you make restitution for betrayal? I don’t think three Hail Mary's are going to do it. I would hope a priest would be more creative in perhaps making the sinner recount what made the sinner fall in love with his spouse in the first place, or take her out for a romantic dinner, or seek counseling.
Also, recently some college students, at Virginia Commonwealth University and the College of William and Mary brought into their campuses a show involving so called "sex workers". This being Virginia, a major objection was raised to it (appropriately I feel) by various community leaders and Members of our legislature. If any of the students involved with bringing the show to campus were Catholics, would they, I assume, be guilty of a sexual sin? How about any Catholic students who attended the program? NOT, of course, that any Catholic students WOULD be involved with that, ha, ha , however, hypothetically speaking, if they were, what would a Priest do if they confessed it at church in the confessional?
I can't answer this without a whole lot more information. "Sex workers" could be anything from prostitutes to clerks in a bookstore that sells "Playboy". I assume from the tone of your question that it's more likely the former and not the latter. Even so, was the "show" a performance by strippers, or a roundtable discussion of the "adult entertainment" business and how its participants are affected by it? Again, I assume the former because of the protests, but many people would be offended if a university even brought in a prostitute as a speaker in a psychology class. Is a performance by an exotic dancer any worse than an art class featuring live, nude models? Is it sinful if at the end of the program they are wearing as much as you can see on public beaches in Europe?
So again, the question is much more complicated than it appears. Your question about the organizers assumes that they were aware of the nature of the program. All of them might not have been, and all of the attendees might not have known. The priest's job in the confessional is not to judge the act but the sinfulness of the actor, and there can be many factors involved. Suppose a young lady gets pregnant as a teen and has a child with a medical condition. Since she likely didn't finish school she can't get a good job, and dancing is the only thing she can do to make enough money to buy her child's medication. That is a mitigating factor in any sin she may be committing. A person who is doing something evil because they like it is guilty of a greater sin than a person who sees no other choice.
And again, others may well disagree. This is my opinion, not Church teaching, although I believe it falls within Church teaching. Two people can commit the same act but because of intentions, motivations, and understanding, be guilty of vastly different sins, and a conscientious priest will try to get to the root of the sin and provide spiritual guidance in the form of counseling and penance to help the sinner repent.
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Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 04:58 pm |
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Rick has discussed your questions from the standpoint of public policy. I will comment briefly on how they would be handled on an individual basis in the confessional. Let us keep in mind that all sins named so far in this thread are serious (grave) sins and thus, depending on the disposition of the sinner, can be mortal. Sometimes, however, the conditions for mortal sin are not fulfilled in a particular act or attitude, and therefore the person’s guilt is lessened. This would make such sins, in these specific instances, venial rather than mortal sins.
Let us say a parishioner comes to the confessional and tells his/her Priest that they have been viewing pornography online or looking at pornographic magazines or watching pornographic movies. What sort of sin would this be categorized as being and what sort of discipline would the Priest prescribe?
The sin is traditionally categorized as that of luxury. This is an antiquated way of saying that it has to do with sins involving sensory experience (the online 1913 Webster gives the following as synonyms: “voluptuousness; epicurism; effeminacy; sensuality; lasciviousness; dainty; delicacy; gratification”), our attraction to them and, in many cases, our addiction to them. A more common term in our times is lust, and a more generic term would be impurity. Because human beings are both spiritual (soul) and material (body), there is no escaping the common temptations of the flesh. See Galatians 5:19–21.
St. Thomas Aquinas, following the traditional scheme of the Capital Sins, distinguishes carnal sins from spiritual sins (see Catechism of the Catholic Church §1866 and Summa Theologica I-II q72 a2). In fact, there is both a lust of the flesh and a lust of the spirit, as we read in 1 John 2:15–17: “If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh [carnal sin], and the lust of the eyes [psychological or appetitive sin], and the pride of life [spiritual sin], is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (KJV)
Let's further say a young person comes in and confesses that they have had sex outside of marriage. What sort of sin is that and what would be done about it?
Sexual relations engaged in by the unmarried constitute the sin of fornication. Depending on what is actually done by someone using pornography, it may also involve more physical sins as well as those of the appetite. Regarding adultery, you have already named this sin and understand the definition, so I need not be detained here.
Now you ask in each case, “What is to be done about them?” In my context, we are speaking of asceticism — personal discipline for the avoidance of sin — not penance for sin or general public policy. I am also not going to touch on the more remote forms of avoidance of sin, such as education, nor on prayer, which in any case must be presumed necessary.
The short answer is to avoid the “near occasions” of sin (again, this is traditional Catholic vocabulary). It means staying away from the places and activities where one is likely to be tempted. With sins of the flesh, it is the best policy simply to flee the temptation insofar as this is possible, because direct confrontation almost always results in at least venial sin in anyone who is susceptible — and judging by the results, that is just about all of us.
In cases where avoidance is not possible, distraction is the next best course of action. One remedy for masturbation that I recall hearing about many years ago is the recitation of the Rosary, utilizing a Rosary Ring (a single decade worn on the finger) on each hand. A more drastic remedy utilized by some saints (St. Francis of Assisi and St. Thomas Aquinas come to mind, when they were sexually approached) is to leap out a window into a patch of thorns. These specific suggestions won’t be practical in many people’s circumstances, but they give the general idea.
I am not familiar with the neologism “sex workers,” nor specifically what you have in mind when using the term, so can’t comment there.
Finally, the idea that Catholics are not exempt from sins of the flesh is not new. We have examples in the bible that prove it not only can but does happen. It is the human condition, and we are all human beings. Sins of every sort are treated and forgiven in the confessional, and a lot of these are sins of the flesh. I’ve given a few generalizations above; specific circumstances obviously must be treated on an individual basis. I will leave that job to the priest in the sacrament.
David
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 09:35 pm |
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Thanks for your replies, gentlemen! One thing that I continue to find interesting is that while I am aware what the Protestant reaction would be to my question, the Catholic answers are somewhat in more depth, have more nuances. Sometimes I feel that the Protestants are sort of "in elementary school" while the Catholics are "in university graduate school", ha, ha! And, of course, I am very appreciative of your kind replies. Also, I had not been previously aware of Rosary rings! I'll have to Google them to see if I can find a sample illustration. And I enjoyed the mental image of "jumping out the window into thorns"! I am sure THAT would probably work better than the traditional "cold shower"!
As for the term "sex workers", this has become an - very unfortunate, I feel - sort of "catch all" term which is lately being used to describe a wide range of positions ranging from prostitutes to exotic dancers to the clerk in the sex toy and sex book store and so forth. The program mentioned, which has been going around the nation and recently appearing in Virginia is an attempt to explain and promote these sorts of employments as an acceptable, mainstream industry and form of employment. Something which I feel that the various Christian denominations and our legislatures need to get STOPPED and quickly! Here in the Commonwealth of Virginia(Virginia's official title, we are a Commonwealth like Kentucky, Massachusetts and Pennsylvania if I recall the others properly), several members of our Virginia General Assembly (our House of Delegates and Senate of Virginia which make our our state legislature), some of whom are fine Roman Catholic folks, have been mightily objecting to this program having been presented on campus at VCU and William and Mary as have a number of our churches. I tend to doubt that the "sex worker" industry will become acceptable and open here like those involved with that show want it to be.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 09:59 pm |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote: Thanks for your replies, gentlemen! One thing that I continue to find interesting is that while I am aware what the Protestant reaction would be to my question, the Catholic answers are somewhat in more depth, have more nuances.
I think you're right.
We have two adult stores in my town. One is called "Connexxxions" and the X's are big and bold in the name. I have no idea what's inside the store because I've never been there, but their signs advertise adult DVD's and books. The store's windows are completely blacked out.
There's another store called "Hearts". It's much smaller and more discrete. I have been there. They sell candles and sheets and massage oil and "toys" that a married couple might use to enhance their sexual relationship. They do sell movies but no hard-core porn. Mostly they sell "chick flicks" like An Affair to Remember, Sleepless in Seattle, While You Were Sleeping, etc. The store has window displays featuring flowers, lingerie, boxes of chocolate, etc.
Under the description you gave, the clerks at both stores would qualify as "sex workers". I don't think that's fair. The stores absolutely appeal to a different clientele. When I look at the first place, I imagine a guy in a trench coat hiding his face. When I look at the second place, I think of a couple wanting to "spice things up", maybe giggling together over the thoughts of giving each other massages on slippery satin sheets.
So as a Catholic, I'm not going to brand any object as automatically sinful. I don't believe it is. I think it's all in how it's used. The same is true of acts. Many acts that are perfectly acceptable in the context of a loving marriage are gravely sinful outside the marriage bed. And that applies to other acts, too. Drinking alcoholic beverages is not a sin, but drinking to excess can be, especially if it involves driving, or interfering with employment, or child abuse, but then uncontrollable addiction can mitigate the sinfulness of substance abuse.
So when it comes to "sin" it's all relative. David and I are in complete agreement although we approach it from different angles. And the priest's job is to take all of this into consideration when he offers spiritual guidance and assigns a penance.
You posted in another thread about someone who gave up chocolate for Lent and broke his penance within a couple of days. The priest told him instead to give up an hour of television a day and say the rosary. That was a very smart priest. The purpose of Lent is not sacrifice but conversion, and giving up chocolate for six weeks is not going to convert anyone. But six weeks of an extra hour a day in prayer might very well spark a change.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2008 03:33 pm |
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Quote: (St. Francis of Assisi and St. Thomas Aquinas come to mind, when they were sexually approached) is to leap out a window into a patch of thorns. These specific suggestions won’t be practical in many people’s circumstances, but they give the general idea.
Self mutilation to promote chastity, should we litterally cut off our right arm and pluck out our eyes as well?
Last edited on Mon Feb 11th, 2008 03:34 pm by Candlemass
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2008 08:08 pm |
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should we litterally cut off our right arm and pluck out our eyes as well?
No, as that is typical Jewish hyperbole: exaggeration to make a point. But we should take radical steps to remove the near occasion of sin, and get serious about reforming sin in our lives. That's taught by good solid evangelical moral theology too. It ain't just Catholics who urge folks to stop sinning and repent, and to take practical, concrete steps to make that happen, along with the usual prayer and Bible reading, etc.
A cold shower might be a modern-day equivalent to St. Francis' thorns. 
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Candlemass
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Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2008 08:12 pm |
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Very well, I'll undress and go out and make snow angels! 
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 05:06 pm |
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| That's one creative way of dealing with the problem!
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 02:53 am |
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Back in the mid 80s a priest took bold steps in his parish(he is a good friend of ours, but it was not our parish). One Sunday, he just told them, 'I know there are people in this parish living together out of wedlock, there are also people having affairs. I know about them, and I know who you are. So don't come up for Communion because it will be denied you.' A lot of confessions were made in his parish and a lot of lives changed because of it. Glory to God!
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Connie
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 09:26 pm |
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Cajun Rick wrote:
"It's hard to imagine a circumstance in which adultery would not be a mortal sin, and others may argue that sex outside of marriage is always a mortal sin, but I don't want to judge the sinfulness of others for the reasons I gave above."
Why is it everyone is always so afraid to say something is a sin. When one does, one is immediately labelled as being "judgemental". Sex outside of marriage is a grave sin Rick.
One of the things I really like about Fr. Corapi is he's not afraid of mentioning it. He'll come right out and say what's a sin.
I've never heard any of our Priests ever come right out and talk about sin from the pulpit. They need to. We live in a generation so afraid of "offending"--and not being willing to stand up for Truth.
Your question Marshall-----"How do Priests discipline sexual sin"?
Answer: They don't.
Last edited on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 09:28 pm by Connie
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 09:37 pm |
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Connie wrote: Sex outside of marriage is a grave sin Rick.
Our Church teaches us that in order for any matter to be a grave sin, it must be a grave evil committed knowingly and willingly. Extramarital sex is certainly a grave matter, but a person must also know it is a grave matter, and willingly consent to it. Thus a victim of rape or abuse does not commit a grave sin by having sex outsde of marriage. So it isn't always a grave sin.
Jesus to me that I would be judged as I judge others. He said I would be forgiven as I forgive others. The gravity of "Sin" is conditioned on the belief and awareness of the sinner, and the circumstances involved. So no, I do not feel it is my place to say that the wrong actions of another are sins. I'm too busy trying to deal with the plank in my own eye to judge their splinters.
The following is from our Form Guidelines:
We are not qualified to judge the sinfulness of any act as we cannot tell the state of a person's mind. We are not God. Also, we are not ordained to sit in place of Christ in the confessional. We may judge an act as inherently evil, but we cannot say in a particular case whether the conditions required for the commission of a mortal sin have been met.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 11:10 pm |
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Forum guidelines: We may judge an act as inherently evil . . .
This is what we can do. Adultery is objectively an evil, immoral sin. People often get confused over the distinction between the objective and subjective aspects of sin. The latter is what comes into play in the determination of commission of an actual mortal sin. We can't determine the latter with certainty, as regards other people.
So indeed we can say (and should and must say, to uphold Christian, biblical moral teaching) that certain things are sins and that if someone is committing them, he or she is sinning (at the very least in a venial fashion). We can do that! This isn't necessarily "judging" in the sense that we can never do it. If that were true, St. Paul couldn't have written dozens of things that he wrote about sins of his recipients, while regarding himself as the "chief" of sinners.
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Connie
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Posted: Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 11:46 pm |
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That's exactly right Dave.
When a person mentions a sin and says it IS one, they are not "judging" the person who committed it. There is indeed a distinction. And I agree it is not our place to judge another, it's God's alone. But to talk about what IS sin, that's different. Thanks for making this clarification as you did above.
Such as the case of sex outside of marriage. Presuming obviously it is not rape of course. In order to commit this act, it IS willful. Therefore this act is a sin.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 12:19 am |
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Sex outside of marriage is a good example. Many millions seem to think fornication is fine and dandy, and not even condemned by the Christian church (so that cohabitation is a huge problem now). That knowledge has truly been lost, through the sexual revolution and relentless secular propaganda.
But the knowledge that adultery is very wrong has not yet been lost, even by our crazy, Sodom and Gomorrah-like culture. So from this we conclude that many who fornicate are probably not guilty of mortal sin, but I would contend (still speculation but quite plausibly) that probably very few who commit adultery can be said not to be in mortal sin.
If you know something is seriously wrong, and it is already objectively sin, that's two of the three criteria for mortal sin. All you need is full consent of the will. Well, to get in a situation of intercourse is (I don't think I need to argue) fairly willful, at least in the beginning stages of the process (which are key to the determination of consent of the will, as in premeditated murder), unless someone is raped when put asleep with an anesthetic or an extremely sound sleeper, or given a date rape drug, etc..
Therefore, to avoid mortal sin, one would have to argue that it is addictive behavior (where will becomes progressively weakened) or brought about under extreme duress (such as being severely abused by a husband and shown compassion by the opposite sex in a weak, troubled, despairing moment, where one thing leads to another, etc.).
Also, whether a thing is quickly repented of and not repeated makes a big difference. A one-time one-night stand in a moment of weakness, that is regretted thereafter is highly unlikely to be a mortal sin, and even if it were, the person is remorseful and could repent, confess, and get past it. But Clintonian behavior clearly is.
Last edited on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 12:23 am by Dave Armstrong
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Candlemass
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 12:36 am |
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| The deffinition for sexual sobriety in SA is no sex w/anyone other than the spouse, including self, the Church goes on to say how we are to have sex w/in a marriage, conclusion? It may be best if I became a eunuch!
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Connie
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 10:41 am |
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Candlemass wrote:
"The deffinition for sexual sobriety in SA is no sex w/anyone other than the spouse, including self, the Church goes on to say how we are to have sex w/in a marriage, conclusion? It may be best if I became a eunuch!"
The first part of your statement is exactly true. How freeing. To live in harmony with our creator. This is my deepest desire too. The second part, a eucuch! Not even Candlemass. This is what's much better than being a eunuch.
Having a relationship with the almighty God, you His precious child, His blessing in this life, His instrument, and too, a relationship of our, Your Blessed Mother, the most beautiful of all women. She is all our guides, our comfort, our mother. I have found this out in my life. I never knew she was there for me prior to becoming a Catholic. Now, God has brought her directly to me in so many ways. Embrace Her.
Do you wear a Miraculous Medal? Hope so. It's truly Miraculous.
Bless You
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~Connie~
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Candlemass
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| Joined: | Tue May 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Hudson, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 481 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, RCC for life! |
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 12:51 pm |
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| I was being a bit facetious.
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"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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Parodyonlife
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Corning, New York USA |
| Posts: | 113 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | NEW CATHOLIC!!! W( ) ( )T!!! |
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 02:30 pm |
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My favorite word! Facetious lol.
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Didi
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 212 |
| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic; almost left; Now an On-Fire Catholic! |
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 03:56 pm |
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Connie wrote: I've never heard any of our Priests ever come right out and talk about sin from the pulpit. They need to. We live in a generation so afraid of "offending"--and not being willing to stand up for Truth.
Your question Marshall-----"How do Priests discipline sexual sin"?
Answer: They don't.
CajunRick is right in saying it's not really the priest's purpose to "discipline."
There are priests who do preach the Truth from the pulpit, including our priest (Thank You, Lord!). I also know of a local priest who was aware of a couple living together unmarried and the man wanted to be a Eucharistic minister. The priest gently took the man aside in private and explained to him why he, first - cannot receive communion himself if they are engaging in sexual acitivty; second - cannot be a Eucharistic minister until he rights the current situation.
As mentioned in another thread, we really need to pray for our priests! For those who are true to Jesus and His Church for continued strength and wisdom; for those who do stray that they will hear Our Lord calling them back; for those who are confused that they seek the Truth, Who is Jesus!
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