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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 01:52 pm |
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This question may be a bit embarrasing but it does trouble me and I am curious if it is a scrupulous or legitimate fear or somewhere in between and if something I should mention in confession.
But at what point of consciousness are you guilty of what you are thinking or willing or allowing yourself to think? Every so often (not too often) I may dream of something bizarre or sinful or perverted and with some pleasure. I tend to wake up feeling guilty, though theologically I suppose I believe I can not be guilty for what I did not consciously choose. Yet, I still feel bad. I worry that maybe something in my life I am doing wrong is spilling over to my subconscious and therfore I am still guilty of what may happen in a dream. I hate knowing what my mind is capable of.
Here is what really gets me though. Is often I wake up at certain points, or will at least be half awake. And so sometims it really seems as if I am willifully giving consent to or pursuing certain ideas or images or experiences. I will later realize that I was not completely awake, but I feel like I was not completely asleep either. Sometimes I wake up and realize I was in a deep sleep when the dreams occurred and I still feel a little disturbed but not too guilty. But the times I feel I am somewhere between sleep and consciousness and something lustful or harmful occurs in my mind, I really really seem to think I have personally sinned, and worry to what extent. If some part of me is at least half consciously and willingly consenting to something that I know if fully conscious I would have definitely have renounced and taken captive, well, am I guilty of sin? Do I confess this?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 02:42 pm |
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Even at “half-awake,” Brian, you are not sinning. These are dreams, not realities. At the worst, they might be considered temptations. Forget them and have a good laugh that you ever thought they amounted to something.
David
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brian
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| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 02:57 pm |
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| That is reassuring, but I wonder that if lust or hatred is sin, then at what point is something only a dream and when is it a willful thought engaged in. My problem is that I feel like the idea starts while asleep but I feel more awake as it continues and towards the end I feel almost fully awake and like I was somehow willing these ideas or not doing enough to stop them. Sometimes it seems as if a choice. Are you sure that unless fully awake I am not guilty? Today for instance I woke up in mid dream and sort of was trying to go back to sleep, but was sort of almost hearing myself choose the content of the dream/idea though it was things I personally would not allow myself to think on.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 03:51 pm |
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Today for instance I woke up in mid dream and sort of was trying to go back to sleep, but was sort of almost hearing myself choose the content of the dream/idea though it was things I personally would not allow myself to think on.
Your statement clearly shows that you did not give voluntary consent to anything. You were still asleep, and this was a dream. Even sleeping people are often aware of their thoughts and surroundings; this is a psychological fact. How else could a person remember his dreams? Don’t worry about it.
David
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 4th, 2007 01:05 pm |
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| Sorry to resurrect this thread but this reminds me of what a teacher told me once, "you can't keep a bird [sin] from flying overhead but you can keep it from nesting in your hair." We are not responsible for what our minds do during sleep, playful as they are sometimes.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 389 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 03:53 pm |
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I actually turned down a sinful action in my dream just before I woke up this morning. After I woke up, I was so grateful that God allowed me to do that. It doesn't always happen that way, but I have noticed that my Christian faith does affect my dreams. Even if I do sin, I struggle with it first, and sometimes, I even tell people I'm a Christian and that's why I can't.
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 199 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sat Apr 21st, 2007 08:47 am |
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Sorry to stumble into this conversation so late, but would anyone like to help me work out the "sin value" of "day-dreaming"?
That is a more conscious choice than ordinary dreams, but it does creep up on one. Then what? If I can tell when I am straying into dangerous territory, and I say "Whoa, let's not go there," wouldn't that be basically resisting temptation?
What if I allow myself to linger there for a little while first? (I am talking about thoughts only rather than actions.) Is that a venial sin? Or is it just a more powerful temptation? I have days when I am more alert and able to turn away decisively, and days when it's much more difficult.
I believe that as a fully human being, Jesus knows about temptation from our perspective, and that He pities us when we sruggle with it. When I remeber this it really helps. The temptation just doesn't seem that interesting any more compared to that Love.
Am I on the right track here?
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Apr 21st, 2007 08:41 pm |
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[Daydreaming] is a more conscious choice than ordinary dreams, but it does creep up on one. Then what? If I can tell when I am straying into dangerous territory, and I say "Whoa, let's not go there," wouldn't that be basically resisting temptation?
Yes, it would. Our imagination is always at work, and we have to put up with that. But once you realize that your fantasies are drifting into that “dangerous territory,” it’s time to pull in the reins. And that pulling in the reins is precisely what we mean by “resisting temptation.”
What if I allow myself to linger there for a little while first? (I am talking about thoughts only rather than actions.) Is that a venial sin? Or is it just a more powerful temptation? I have days when I am more alert and able to turn away decisively, and days when it's much more difficult.
From all reports, this is a universal problem. Depending on your reaction to the lingering thoughts, it could be a venial sin. In other words, if you keep trying to push them away, even unsuccessfully, it isn’t a sin. But if you are consciously exploring them, that’s a venial sin.
Seldom, however, would strong imaginative thoughts be a sign of a “more powerful temptation.” Instead, it is usually a weaker human being receiving the temptation. If you are physically weak, in most cases you can’t help it and the lingering would be at worst an imperfection. If you are morally weak, that’s your fault and it would be sinful. The trick, of course, is in discerning culpability in your particular concrete case. And that’s a topic best handled in the confessional.
I believe that as a fully human being, Jesus knows about temptation from our perspective, and that He pities us when we struggle with it. When I remember this it really helps. The temptation just doesn't seem that interesting any more compared to that Love.
Since each person is different, there is no way to tell just how Jesus may have been assailed in his imagination. One could suppose that he experienced such temptations, however, since they are a part of being human. The great saints seem to have been able to cope with the imagination through years of mortification and penance, as well as something similar to your suggestion that we turn our thoughts to Jesus and the eternal truths of our faith. Personally, I have found that developing a real love of God and positive motives for virtue truly does help in laying aside the follies of my imagination. In this way, their innate vanity and emptiness can be seen very clearly and they become, as you say, much less attractive.
David
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 199 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sat Apr 21st, 2007 11:43 pm |
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Thanks David.
I do think you are right about it being a weaker person rather than a stronger temptation. I think that's what is happening when some days it is easier and others it is harder to turn away.
Two priests (one who was my Anglican pastor a long time ago, and one being my Catholic pastor now) both have given me the following advice: when I feel that something is coming between me and my husband (resentment, another friend, busy-ness, whatever) then I should go out of my way to show extra affection to him or do some extra chore for him (without being asked or mentioning it to him). This works great for me. Perhaps the chore could be a small example of penance.
This is what I like about these dialogues--they call to mind things that I haven't thought about in a while and refresh my memory!
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 01:43 pm |
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Allow me to come out of retirement for a minute and to throw out a word of caution regarding dream interpretation. Froyd (A little psychology joke there!) studied dreams and dream interpretation for years and still got it wrong. Such activities take a lot of time, bundles of logs or journal keeping and hours of study. We can not draw conclusions about our desires, fears or sins from having a dream or two no matter how upsetting they may be.
So, ...... Peace be with you.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 02:38 pm |
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Exactly, BodRod. The imagination has a “mind of its own.” That’s why I always counsel people, as I have done here, to ignore dreams and live their lives in the real world.
David
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 02:43 am |
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 I think we'd all be more worried if you didn't dream a little. It's kinda like that old saying, "Look, but don't touch." Best yet, follow St. Paul's advice about getting yourself a nice wife and settlin' down.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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