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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 03:49 pm |
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Here is the paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that Rick is referring to:
CCC 460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: [2 Peter 1:4] “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” [St. Irenaeus, Adversus haereses 3, 19, 1] “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” [St. Athanasius, De Incarnatione Verbi Dei 54, 3] “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusculum 57, 1–4]
And here, for context, is the entire chapter of the work by St. Athanasius, with the quoted words highlighted:
CHAPTER 54
1. As, then, if a man should wish to see God, Who is invisible by nature and not seen at all, he may know and apprehend Him from His works: so let him who fails to see Christ with his understanding, at least apprehend Him by the works of His body, and test whether they be human works or God's works. 2. And if they be human, let him scoff; but if they are not human, but of God, let him recognise it, and not laugh at what is no matter for scoffing; but rather let him marvel that by so ordinary a means things divine have been manifested to us, and that by death immortality has reached to all, and that by the Word becoming man, the universal Providence has been known, and its Giver and Artificer the very Word of God. 3. For He was made man that we might be made God; and He manifested Himself by a body that we might receive the idea of the unseen Father; and He endured the insolence of men that we might inherit immortality. For while He Himself was in no way injured, being impossible and incorruptible and very Word and God, men who were suffering, and for whose sakes He endured all this, He maintained and preserved in His own impossibility. 4. And, in a word, the achievements of the Saviour, resulting from His becoming man, are of such kind and number, that if one should wish to enumerate them, he may be compared to men who gaze at the expanse of the sea and wish to count its waves. For as one cannot take in the whole of the waves with his eyes, for those which are coming on baffle the sense of him that attempts it; so for him that would take in all the achievements of Christ in the body, it is impossible to take in the whole, even by reckoning them up, as those which go beyond his thought are more than those he thinks he has taken in. 5. Better is it, then, not to aim at speaking of the whole, where one cannot do justice even to a part, but, after mentioning one more, to leave the whole for you to marvel at. For all alike are marvellous, and wherever a man turns his glance, he may behold on that side the divinity of the Word, and be struck with exceeding great awe.
David
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NorthStar
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Posted: Sun Aug 24th, 2008 08:07 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: NorthStar wrote: For us the IC means she was conceived spiritually pure and holy, all immaculate, in such a state of purity that she is basically divinized at her conception.
Divinization is not a common concept in the west, so let me explain quickly that in the eastern view, we are "divinized" or "purified" through God's grace and our suffering before and after death, until we reach a state of glorification that enables us to enter God's presence. It does not mean that we become gods (in the Mormon sense) but that our creation in the "image and likeness of God" is completed.
One of the early Fathers (Augustine?) is quoted in the Catechism as saying that God become human so that we might become divine, and it was not until I studied the eastern concept of theosis that I understood the meaning. The closest concept we have in the west is "glorification".
Partly because there is a great tradition in the west with the uncorrupted relics of the saints, I figured as long as i didn't use all the Eastern terms like theosis, everyone would pretty much know what I meant.
Thanks for clarifying me once again!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:43 am |
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NorthStar wrote: Partly because there is a great tradition in the west with the uncorrupted relics of the saints, I figured as long as i didn't use all the Eastern terms like theosis, everyone would pretty much know what I meant.
They may have, but we try to assume very little. Often those coming to learn about the faith don't have much background beyond being told they are "saved", and really have never been exposed to the depth of liturgy, theology, ecclesiology, and spirituality available in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Oriental Churches.
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:56 am |
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the following quotes from the book by Metro. Nafpaktos Hirotheos, 'Saint Gregory Palamas As A Hagiorite':
Gregory Palamas says that Mary:
"...alone is the borderline between created and uncreated nature"
"...standing between God and the whole human race, she made God a son of man, and men sons of God. She alone showed herself to be supranaturally the mother of God by nature and through her ineffable childbirth became queen of every earthly and heavenly creature."
"...the common reconciliation of the whole race of men"
"Now in her time and through her the renewal of the world was made manifest and through her heaven opened its gates again for us, not in order to send a violent and terrible and devastating deluge with a violent blast, but the dew of the Spirit, the sweetness shared by our souls, the great and unapproachable light, which passes understanding."
"For she performmed a miracle of miracles on earth and a public benefit greater than any in history..."
"...the fullness of divinity bodily by reason of her extreme purity"
"For you are also a place of all the graces, and a fullness of every sort of goodness, and a spiritual catalogue of every virtue and kindness, as the only one of all who was found worthy of all the gifts of the Spirit, or rather as the only one who, surpirsingly, accepted into your womb the one who contains the treasuries of all these things, and you became his surprising dwelling place,..."
"...being the divine abode of all together and each separately of the things that are fine and good. She alone of the people from the beginning did not seem to be lacking in anything at all, but she far surpassed all in every way, as much as heaven differs from earth..."
"The eternal holy of holies entered into the temporary holy of holies;"
"...how much more the remembrance of the holy of holies through which all the holiness comes to the saints'
"...in order that as in charge of the office where holiness is given, she may convey gifts of holiness to all without exception, without leaving anyome without a share, even of the hidden things of the universe, that is to say of those inaccessible things"
"...alone is the boundary between created and uncreated nature, and therefore no one can come to God without her and through the mediation which has come from her; and none of the gifts from God could have been given to angels and men except though her"
"So also it is unfeasible to gaze towards God and proceed from him towards anything unless it is through this Godbearing and truly god enlightened lamp, the ever Virgin"
'...and so also in the coming unending age every advance in divine illumination and every revelation of the most divine mysteries and every idea of spiritual gifts is impossible to contain without her. She having first received the fullness of that which fills the universe, made it containable to all, bestowing on each according to the ability and measure of his purity"
"...both treasury and office for granting the wealth of the divinity"
"All who partake of God partake through her, and all who know God will recognise her as a place of the infinite, and all who praise God will praise her with God."
"...in you the spirit is illuminated by the indwelling of the Spirit of God, because you became a keeper and place of graces, not in order to possess them in yourself, but to fill the universe with grace. For the treasure of the inexhaustible treasures is the manager of the distribution. What could your wealth do if entirely shut up, since it does not decrease? So transmit it richly to us, O Mistress, even if we cannot contain it, make us more spacious and thus add to it, for only you have not received by measure, since all things have been given into your hands."
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:21 am |
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Also:
The term "divinization" is used also many other times in Rome, as in the JPII audience of 09Dec1981 : The words of the synoptic Gospels testify that the state of man in the other world will not only be a state of perfect spiritualization, but also of fundamental divinization of his humanity.
The Latin Church is rediscovering the concept of theosis/divinization, even if the terms are not used. Here is an example:
"[T]he most important of all human activities is to be immersed in contemplative intimacy with God. . . . We are to taste and see for ourselves, to experience a deep delight in this interpersonal closeness, a union that makes us radiant with joy (Ps 34:5, 8). . . . This intimacy brings with it a joy so great that it cannot be described (1 Pet 1:8), and it transforms the person from one glory to another (2 Cor 3:18). It can grow to the point where it fills a person with the utter fullness of God (Eph 3:19 JB), a staggering statement when one reflects on it for a few minutes.
--Thomas Dubay, S.M., Deep Conversion, Deep Prayer 73 (2006).
Hope these help.
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Victor
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 04:37 pm |
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Geesh, I couldn't of picked an easier topic?...lol
This deserves a second read. Make sure I don't miss anything. I'll be back to respond to your post Chuck.
____________________
"Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. . . . " G.K. Chesterton
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NorthStar
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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If anyone is curious, here is a website that contains the Akathist Hymn, or at least the Stanzas, which is some of the most beautiful poetry ever composed.
This is not the whole service, as there are hymns (known as the canon to the Theotokos) that are chanted to a specific melody, in between each ode (a group of hymns) these stanzas are interspersed and chanted, not according to a melody, but similarly to how the Gospel is chanted, in both in East and West.
http://www.monachos.net/library/Akathist_Hymn_to_Our_Most_Holy_Lady_Mother_of_God_(Theotokos)
Beware of the website's forum, as it's usually bitterly anti Catholic (and anti other Orthodox even) but this is probably the best translation of the Akathist on the web, and thought some people might like to see it. There's also one at http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/liturgical_texts/vaporis_akathist.asp but it doesn't keep the poetic nature of the stanzas as well. But it does contain the entire canon as well as the stanzas.
Only posting this so folks can see out theology about the Holy Virgin really is the same, we just use different words to describe it.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 06:21 pm |
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Victor wrote: Geesh, I couldn't of picked an easier topic?...lol
Hey, it keeps things interesting around here! Keep asking! 
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Victor
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 11:03 pm |
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Northstar said:
If Jesus is born of an immortal, then Jesus is immortal!
This is what I don’t get. Bare with me as I attempt to explain.
If Mary didn’t have to be sinless for it all to work (it was simply fitting), why does she have to be mortal? (I know you partly answered this but entertain my insanity for a sec.)
I would imagine her being sinless would be far more important then her being mortal. In other words, repairing the soul is more important then repairing the physical. (we can get off topic with this so you can just take it as a point to keep in mind).
And in the same way that Christ chooses to give her grace at conception, He could have made her partly immortal. By “partly” I simply mean she had to at least age to have Christ be born.
*theoretically speaking here*
So, Mary is partly immortal and Christ is born. He can still assume His humanity from her in every way but the consequences. So Mary would be immortal and Christ wouldn’t. Mind you, this is all by choice of God.
So, to answer your questions here:
And so if Christ is born of an immortal being, then Christ is immortal,
As I said above, if Christ didn’t have to have Mary be sinless, He didn’t have to have her be mortal either.
…and so just how was he like us in every way then?
Well, He would still be like us in every way but sin; he would still suffer and die. Because He would take on a mortal body (causing a change on the atomic level if you will) irregardless of the condition of His mother.
Let me know if this at least clarifies things……I might be wrong, but as long as I’m being clear it’s a start for me to be corrected.
____________________
"Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. . . . " G.K. Chesterton
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Tue Aug 26th, 2008 04:01 am |
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Since NorthStar posted on AKATHIST HYMNS which are very ancient hymns of the Church. Known as prayers of CONSOLATION...
Akathist Hymns
The akathist is one of the most ancient ornces or collection of prayers in the Byzantine Church. It is a prayer of veneration, thanksgiving and petition. "Akathist" means standing because it is an expression of profound joy in recognizing the honor being paid to Our Lord, Our Lady, or the saint who is being venerated. An akathist, therefore, is prayed standing.
The Church has composed several akathists dedicated to either Our Lord under the title of our Most Sweet Jesus, or to various saints, such as St. Michael the Archangel and All the Holy Angels. The most popular is the Akathist to Our Lady, composed in the year 532. Today, the Church has granted the benefit of a plenary indulgence to all who pray the Akathist of Our Lady, when fulfilling all the proper requirements.
The akathists are designed to be chanted, but it is not necessary to do so if prayed individually, or in a small group. If chanted, the Preamble and chants are sung recitando, and the kontakia are sung in Tone 7.
 The Akathist Hymn to Our Lord, the Most Sweet Jesus
Introductory prayers -
In the name of the Father + and of the Son, and of the
Holy Spirit. Amen. (Three times.)
-Glory be to You, our God; glory be to You!
O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth! You are
everywhere present and fill all things. Treasury of
Blessings and Giver of Life, come and dwell within us,
cleanse us of all stain, and save our souls, O gracious
Lord.
-Holy God, holy and mighty, holy and immortal, have
mercy on us (Three times.)
-Glory be to the Father +and to the Son, and to the
Holy Spirit, now and ever, and forever. Amen.
O Most Holy Trinity, have mercy on us; O Lord, cleanse
us of our sins; O Master forgive our transgressions; O
Holy One, come to us and heal our infirmities for your
Names's sake.
-Lord, have mercy! (Three times.)
-Glory be to the Father + and to the Son, and to the
Holy Spirit, now and ever, and forever. Amen.
OUR FATHER Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be
thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth
as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who
trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from evil.
-For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory,
Father + Son, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
now and ever, and forever. Amen. -Lord, have mercy!
(Twelve times) -Glory be to the Father +and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and forever.
Amen. -Come, let us adore the King, our God. -Come, let
us adore Christ, the King, our God. -Come, let us adore
and bow down to the only Lord, Jesus Christ, the King
and our God.
THE NICENE CREED I believe in one God, the Father
Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, of all things
visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father
before all ages. Light of light, true God of true God,
begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father,
through Whom all things were made. Who for us men, and
for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was
incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the virgin, and
became man. He was also crucified for us under Pontius
Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And He rose again
on the third day, according to the Scriptures. And He
ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the
Father. And He will come again with glory, to judge the
living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be
no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of
life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with
the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets. In one holy catholic, and
apostolic Church. I profess one Baptism for the
remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the
dead; and the life of the world to come. Amen.
THE JESUS PRAYER O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have
mercy on me a sinner!+ (Bow) |
Preamble Unconquered King and Lord, Vanquisher of the Nether World, I, Your creature and servant, sing Your praise for having delivered me from eternal death. Since Your mercies are boundless, free me from every harm as I sing: 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
First Chant Creator of Angels and Lord of Angelic Hosts: as You once opened the ears of the deaf and the mouths of the dumb, empower my dull mind and tongue to sing to You: 0 Jesus most wonderful, Marvel of Angels! 0 Jesus most powerful, Deliverer of Our Forefathers! 0 Jesus most delightful, Exultation of Patriarchs! 0 Jesus most glorious, the Might of Rulers! 0 Jesus most beloved, the Fulfillment of Prophets! 0 Jesus most marvelous, the Strength of Martyrs! 0 Jesus most serene, the Joy of Monks! O Jesus most merciful, the Delight of Priests! 0 Jesus most kind, the Happiness of Saints! 0 Jesus most honorable, the Chastity of the Chaste! 0 Jesus, Everlasting Salvation of Sinners! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion When You saw the widow weeping by the body of her dead son, 0 Lord, You were moved to compassion and raised him from the dead. 0 Lover of Mankind, have mercy also upon me, and raise up my sin-tortured soul that I may sing: Alleluia!
Second Chant As he sought understanding, Philip, in his confusion said: "Lord, show us the Father." In answer, You told him: "Have I been so long a time with you and you have not known that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father?" Likewise, Incomparable Lord, I cry out with fear: 0 Jesus, God Eternal! 0 Jesus, Most Powerful King! 0 Jesus, Long-suffering Lord! 0 Jesus, Ever-merciful Savior! 0 Jesus, Ever-gracious Guardian! 0 Jesus, cleanse me of sin! 0 Jesus, deliver me from all iniquities! 0 Jesus, forgive my insincerities! 0 Jesus, my Hope, never forsake me! 0 Jesus, my Help, do not reject me! 0 Jesus, My Creator, do not forget me! 0 Jesus, my Shepherd, let me go not astray! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion O Jesus, Who bestowed heavenly power upon the Apostles waiting in Jerusalem: fill me, who am deprived of all goodness, with Your Holy Spirit, so that I may lovingly sing to You: Allelula!
Third Chant O Jesus endowed with a richness of compassion, You called the publicans, the unfaithful, and the sinners to You. Do not despise me, who am like them; but, rather, receive this song as a gift of precious perfume: 0 Jesus, Invincible Strength! 0 Jesus, Boundless in Mercy! 0 Jesus, Unsurpassable in Beauty! 0 Jesus, Unspeakable Love! 0 Jesus, Son of the Living God! 0 Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner! 0 Jesus, listen to me, defiled from birth! 0 Jesus, cleanse me, born in sin! 0 Jesus, teach me, unworthy though I be! 0 Jesus, enlighten my darkness! 0 Jesus, cleanse me, a sinner! 0 Jesus, restore me, the prodigal! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion With doubts storming with him, Peter began to sink, but looking up, he saw You walking on the water, and, realizing that You are truly God, he accepted the saving hand, exclaiming: Alleluia!
Fourth Chant Hearing You as You passed by, the blind man cried out: "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me;" and You, by calling out to him, opened his eyes. Likewise, In Your mercy, open the eyes of my soul, that I may cry out to You: 0 Jesus, Creator of the Heavenly Spirits! 0 Jesus, Deliverer of the Poor! 0 Jesus, Savior from Evil Spirits! 0 Jesus, Artist of All Creation! 0 Jesus, Comforter of My Soul! 0 Jesus, Enlightenment of My Mind! 0 Jesus, Joy of My Heart! 0 Jesus, Health of My Body! 0 Jesus, my Savior, save me! 0 Jesus, my Light, enlighten me! 0 Jesus, deliver me from all torments! 0 Jesus, save me, unworthy though I be! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion Through the shedding of Your Divine Blood, we were freed from the just curse of old. In like manner, free us now from the torments of our evil passions, and from prodigal rebellion and sinful despair with which the serpent defiled us, so that we may sing to You: AlIeluia!
Fifth Chant The Jewish children, seeing their Creator incarnate as Man, and recognizing Him as their Lord, hastily cut branches to honor Him, crying out: "Hosanna!" We also offer You this song: 0 Jesus, True God! 0 Jesus, Son of David! 0 Jesus, Most Glorious King! 0 Jesus, Innocent lamb! 0 Jesus, Marvelous Shepherd! 0 Jesus, Guardian of My Childhod! 0 Jesus, Provider of My Youth! 0 Jesus, Praise of My Old Age! 0 Jesus, My Hope at Death! 0 Jesus, My Life after Death! 0 Jesus, My Comfort at the Last Judgment! 0 Jesus, My Desire, do not cast me off! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion Fulfilling the prophecies and messages of the inspired Prophets, Jesus appeared on earth. Omnipresence lived with men and took upon Himself our weaknesses. And we, being healed by Your wounds, have learned to sing: Allelula!
Sixth Chant The light of Your truth shines forth throughout the entire universe and destroys the falsehoods of the devil. Idols, being no match for Your power, 0 Savior, fall down before You. And we, who have received salvation, sing to You: 0 Jesus, truly You have destroyed error! 0 Jesus, Light Brighter than All Others! 0 Jesus, Our King Surpassing All in Strength! 0 Jesus, You delight in showing mercy! 0 Jesus, Bread of Life, satisfy my hunger! 0 Jesus, Fount of Intelligence, quench my thirst for truth! 0 Jesus, Garment of Joy, cover me who am corruptible! 0 Jesus, Joyous Shelter, protect me who am unworthy! 0 Jesus, Who grants every prayer, grant me tears for my sins! 0 Jesus, Possession of All Who Seek, possess my soul! 0 Jesus, Contemplation of the Wise, open my Mind to penance! 0 Jesus, Who paid the price for my sinfulness, cleanse me of sin! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion Fulfilling the precious mystery revealed from the beginning of time, You were led as a sheep to the slaughter, and, as an innocent lamb, You were silent before the shearers. As God, You rose from the dead, and with glory, You ascended into heaven, so that we, exalted, might sing to Him: AIleIuia!
Seventh Chant Amazed creation beheld the appearance of the Creator, Who was born without seed from a Virgin, Who triumphantly arose from a sealed grave, and Who physically came to the Apostles through locked doors. And we, being likewise astonished, now sing: 0 Jesus, Inexplicalbe Word! 0 Jesus, Incomparable Word! 0 Jesus, Unconquered Strength! 0 Jesus, Indescribable Divinity! 0 Jesus, Lord Over All! 0 Jesus, Invincible Kingdom! 0 Jesus, Unending Sovereignty! 0 Jesus, Omnipotent One! 0 Jesus, Eternal Power! 0 Jesus, My Creator, look graciously upon me! 0 Jesus, My Savior, save me! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion Let us cast out the foolishness of the world and turn our minds to the Divine; for, the undreamed-of has happened, and God has become man in order to lead us to heaven, so that we might sing to Him: Alleluia!
Eighth Chant You always associated with the lowly. Though incomparably greater than the mighty and wise, You never sought their company. When You willingly suffered for us, You conquered Death by Your death, and by Your resurrection, You gave life to those who sing: 0 Jesus, Delight of Our hearts! 0 Jesus, Strength of Our Bodies! 0 Jesus, Purity of Our Souls! 0 Jesus, Enlightenment of Our Thoughts! 0 Jesus, Joy of Our Conscience! 0 Jesus, Confident Hope! 0 Jesus, Eternal Memory! 0 Jesus, the Highest Praise! 0 Jesus, Supreme Name! 0 Jesus, My Desire, do not cast me away! 0 Jesus, My Pastor, look after me! 0 Jesus, My Savior, save me! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion O Jesus, all the angelic choirs unceasingly glorify Your most holy Name, singing in the heavens: Holy, Holy, Holy! Likewise, we sinner here on earth sing out with earthly lips: Alleluia!
Ninth Chant O Jesus, Savior, all the ancient prophecies concerning You are feeble. They convey as little as the burbling of fish, for they fail to explain how You remained God and became a perfect man. We, likewise, amazed, sing to You with faith: 0 Jesus, Eternally God! 0 Jesus, King of Kings! 0 Jesus, Judge of the Living and the Dead! 0 Jesus, Hope of the Hopeless! 0 Jesus, Comforter of those Who Weep! 0 Jesus, Glory of the Lowly! 0 Jesus, do not judge me according to my deeds! 0 Jesus, let me not despair! 0 Jesus, enlighten my spiritual powers! 0 Jesus, keep before me the idea of death! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion The Source of Light came to those groping in darkness and, being incarnate, submitted even to death because He wished to save the world. For this reason, Your Name is hymned above all others, and from all heavenly and earthly creation is heard: Alleluia!
Tenth Chant Eternal King, True Comforter, Christ: cleanse us from all sinfulness as You cleansed the ten lepers. Heal us also as You healed the avaricious Zacchaeus, the publican, as we sing to You with love, saying: 0 Jesus, Treasury of Immortality! 0 Jesus, Abundance of Riches! 0 Jesus, Food the Strong! 0 Jesus, Fount Inexhaustible! 0 Jesus, Garment of the Poor! 0 Jesus, Defender of Widows! 0 Jesus, Aid of All Those Who Labor! 0 Jesus, Protection of Travelers! 0 Jesus, Guide of Seafarers! 0 Jesus, Queller of Storms! 0 Jesus, raise me up who have fallen! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion Unworthy though it be, we bring to You our most endearing song and sing to You as did the woman of Canaan: "0 Jesus, have mercy on me!" We are indeed not Gentiles, but our flesh is stung by the falsehoods of the devil and raging anger. Therefore, heal us who sing: Alleluja!
Eleventh Chant A glowing beacon for those who dwell in the darkness of ignorance, Paul persecuted You until he was quelled by the power of Your voice and enlightened quickly by Your heavenly words. In like manner, enlighten the darkened eyes of my soul as I sing: 0 Jesus, my King Most Powerful! 0 Jesus, my God Most Strong! 0 Jesus, my Immortal Master! 0 Jesus, my Creator Most Glorious! 0 Jesus, my Good Strengthener! 0 Jesus, my Most Gentle Pastor! 0 Jesus, my Lord Most Compassionate! 0 Jesus, My Savior Most Merciful! 0 Jesus, banish my dark evil passions! 0 Jesus, heal me who am laden with sin! 0 Jesus, cleanse me from worldly thoughts! 0 Jesus, guard my heart from evil passions! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion O Jesus, Remitter of Debts, grant me the grace to be as repentant as Peter who denied You; and call me, lest I despair, as You earlier called Paul, who persecuted You, and hear me as I sing to You: AIleIuia!
Twelfth Chant Singing of Your Incarnation, we all praise You and believe like Thomas that, sitting together with the Father, You are Lord and God, and the Judge of the Living and the Dead. Allow me to stand at Your right hand and sing: 0 Jesus, my Eternal King, have mercy on me! 0 Jesus, Aroma of Flowers, Shed Your Perfume upon me! 0 Jesus, Warming Love, enkindle me! 0 Jesus, Eternal Temple, shelter me! O Jesus, Cloak of Light, cover me! 0 Jesus, Brilliant Pearl, shine upon me! 0 Jesus, Sun of Holiness, illumine me! 0 Jesus, Joyful Light, inspire me! 0 Jesus, deliver me from all bodily and spiritual ills! 0 Jesus, spare me from falling into the hands of evil-doers! 0 Jesus, free me from eternal fire and torment! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Kontakion 0 Most Gracious Jesus, Delight of Our Hearts: receive now our humble prayer as You received the two lowly talents of the poor widow. Deliver Your people from every visible and invisible enemy, from foreign invasion, civil war, and riot; from all storms and every distress and illness. Save me from all torment as we sing to You: Alleluia!
Thirteenth Chant Creator of Angels and Lord of Angelic Hosts: as You once opened the ears of the deaf and the mouths of the mute, empower my dull mind and tongue to sing to You: 0 Jesus, Most Wonderful, Marvel of Angels! 0 Jesus, Most Powerful, Deliverer of Our Forefathers! 0 Jesus, Most Delightful, Exultation of Patriarchs! 0 Jesus Most Beloved, the Fulfillment of Prophets! 0 Jesus Most Serene, the Joy of Monks! 0 Jesus Most Merciful, the Delight of Priests! 0 Jesus Most Kind, the Happiness of Saints! 0 Jesus Most Honorable, the Chastity of the Chaste! 0 Jesus, Everlasting Salvation of Sinners! 0 Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me!
Recite the Concluding Prayers. http://www.byzantines.net/liturgy/akathist.htm
Last edited on Tue Aug 26th, 2008 04:04 am by Pani Rose
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NorthStar
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 05:45 pm |
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Hi Victor. I'm going to try to answer you point by point, as briefly as I can so I don't create any confusion.
Victor wrote:
Northstar said:
If Jesus is born of an immortal, then Jesus is immortal!
This is what I don’t get. Bare with me as I attempt to explain.
If Mary didn’t have to be sinless for it all to work (it was simply fitting), why does she have to be mortal?
Have you read Archbishop Sheen's book I talked about? The World's First Love? He pretty much answers the reason in several chapters, not that he addresses this issue directly, because there is no such controversy in the Catholic Church that she was mortal, but just the way he explains things makes it perfectly clear, to me anyways.
I would imagine her being sinless would be far more important then her being mortal.
In other words, repairing the soul is more important then repairing the physical. (we can get off topic with this so you can just take it as a point to keep in mind).
And in the same way that Christ chooses to give her grace at conception, He could have made her partly immortal. By “partly” I simply mean she had to at least age to have Christ be born.
That's seriously problematic I think. I mean, I know your just talking theoretically here, but what you just said is getting awfully close to Gnosticism. Mary is "partly" immortal and partly not....that sounds an awful lot like the Gnostics who said Jesus only "appeared" to be human, but really wasn't. She appears to age, or at least does age, but cannot die? She looks human, but isn't really? This sounds a little too much like Highlander...cool movie, one of my all time favorites in fact, (there can be only one)  I mean even the immortals wouldn't dare fight on Holy ground, but they never said it was because Mary was one of them.
So, Mary is partly immortal and Christ is born. He can still assume His humanity from her in every way but the consequences. So Mary would be immortal and Christ wouldn’t. Mind you, this is all by choice of God.
Look what you just said, He can still assume His humanity from her in every way but . . . .
Anytime there is a but, especially when we human beings say but . . . it usually leads to some sort of problem even if we're not aware of it.
you finished,
. . . . but the consequences.
If Christ doesn't assume the consequences, then He cannot die because death IS a consequence of sin. See the contradiction? If a consequence of sin is death, and He doesn't assume the consequences, then He cannot die.
So, to answer your questions here:
And so if Christ is born of an immortal being, then Christ is immortal,
As I said above, if Christ didn’t have to have Mary be sinless, He didn’t have to have her be mortal either.
I think you're still looking at this from a purely western, St.Thomas Aquinas-esque POV. I have attempted to see it from the Western, to the best oy my ability, and in fact have said, and will say again, I can totally accept the the Western terminology of sin, even though I personally don't think it's the best way of describing things, I'll accept it. Mary was born with no "original sin" in the Western definition of original sin. She didn't have the stain of Adam's sin passed on to her, I can agree and accept that. No problem. (again I think the Eastern defintion is better but see no issue with the West's given how the West understands the nature of sin) But she was mortal. The spriitual part has been repaired as you put it, she have no sin, no guilt, but she still has to be mortal, even in the Western POV, as I'll show below.
But first, Christ didn't HAVE to be born of a human woman at all. He, the Logos, could have pealed back the heavens, put a flaming cross in the sky (as Carl Sagan would have wanted) and waved a magic wand...if the goal is to simply pardon our sins, or to prove He is God....But there is more to it that just that...God wants a relationship with us.....the pealing back the heavens of course wouldn't cause anyone to have faith, or a relationship, only fear and dread at the terrible being who one night tore open the sky to pardon our misdeeds. But that doesn't "fix" anything....it doesn't make as a new creation in Christ, because God would still be way up/out there, instead of right here. (the Kingdom of heaven is at hand)
…and so just how was he like us in every way then?
Well, He would still be like us in every way but sin; he would still suffer and die. Because He would take on a mortal body (causing a change on the atomic level if you will) irregardless of the condition of His mother.
And just where did He get this mortal body from?
He might take on a mortal body, of course He could...He could do anything He wanted....but He wouldn't be getting it from His mother!
He would be preventing a part of her from being transmitted to Him. And THIS is the problem.
With your theory, (and yes I understand it's a theory), Jesus is making all these exceptions for His Mother, not only does she not have the genetic stain of sin, she doesn't suffer the consequences of sin either. She can grow old, to a certain point (just like in Highlander, where they age until the first time they are "killed"), but it's all an illusion. She's not only Immaculate, (which I can agree with) she's what Christ isn't, an immortal being incapable of dying. Heck, we don't even know for sure if Adam and Eve were "immortal" in this sense...(ie: can't die physically)....if not, then Mary really isn't a human descendent of Adama and Eve at all, but an entirely new species. (Just a thought)
This is a problem because He assumed his flesh from the VIRGIN! He assumed His humanity from HER. You're saying that He made Mary an almost immortal, (which doesn't make sense because one either is or is not immortal) but as you say, Jesus made an exception for himself He did not take this single aspect of her, unto Him, He prevented everything that she was in the flesh from being transmitted to Him....and so He is not in every way like her. And if He is not in every way like her, He is not in every way like us except sin. The exception is sin . . . .not sin, AND mortality.
Why couldn't He do this? Theologically why? Well there are problems the East has with this, (both Orthodox AND Eastern Catholics, don't forget many Eastern Catholics would have just as much issue with what your saying that I would) but since Eastern theology can be sometimes too mystical and non descript, look at it from the Western perspective. What do you know about the "two hearts" and the idea of Mary as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix? Again, I only know what I read in Archbishop's Sheen's book, but from what I understand, this theory you've put forth would completely undermine all of it. I wish I still had the book with me (I had to turn it back into the library) as there were a few quotes that I think you'd find helpful, but alas, I cant remember them...sorry....) How can she share in Jesus Passion, if she's not a part of Him?
She's the new Eve right? The first parents woman came from man, "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh"...this time, it's the Woman who gives us the man. But if Jesus isn't truly "bone of HER bone, flesh of HER flesh"....how can she really be a new Eve? How can He be like her, to the point they share their hearts, since something was held back? Jesus didn't hold anything back of Himself to go to the Passion? What makes you think He would make Mary hold anything back of herself? (her immortality)
With this theory, 2000 years of Christian doctrine begins to fall apart. It's completely setting Mary apart from the rest of the human race, as if she's not one of us or even one with Christ. And if she's not one of us, then Jesus isn't one of us. or if He is one of us, while she isn't, then they are not one.
According to Scripture He is one of us. In every way, except sin. Not except sin and mortality.
Every single Church father, all the ancient councils, the canons, the brilliant theologians agree 100%...that Jesus assumes His humanity, His flesh from the Holy Virgin. This says nothing about the spiritual aspect, (which is why I can agree with the Western understanding of the IC even if I think the Eastern is slightly better) but they literally meant the flesh, her humanity, her mortality. As far as I know, no Church father ever claimed Mary was immortal, or that Christ received everything from her according to the flesh/humanity, except one thing, or except another thing...no exceptions. This is how we can call her the Mother of God to begin with....and it's how we can call her OUR Mother. She's our Mother, because she gave all to Christ, without holding back something.
Let me know if this at least clarifies things…
it doesn't...LOL! But that's ok...dialogue is good, as sometimes thats the only way we can work through questions. I fear my ability to explain my position and the Eastern understanding is at an end....however maybe someone well versed in Western theology can better explain why an immortal Mary causes problems....Sorry I cannot better explain my position, I feel really bad about it. Maybe I can find a couple brief articles or quotes from some saints that ight help....and I really do recommend the book by Fulton Sheen....I think it might clear up alot for you on this issue. (as it cleared up some misconceptions I had about the Catholic view of Mary for me)
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NorthStar
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 06:00 pm |
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Just wanted to add one more thing...I have no problem with saying Mary did not die because God preserved her from it, only with saying that she COULD NOT die. Those are 2 very different things, and it's the latter that is problematic, not the former.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 06:11 pm |
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How could someone be partly immortal? Isn't that like being partly dead? Or partly human? Or partly pregnant? Or partly redeemed?
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Victor
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 10:14 pm |
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Couple things I’d like to point out before I tackle your post.
--Don’t think for a second you were unable to clarify to me because of your eastern lens. The realm I’m touching on is something even a westerner would have difficulty trying to explain. You and others have done a great job.
--There is a reason why I choose to point out that this was simply a hypothetical. I didn’t want to spend anymore more time dialoguing whether what I’m saying is Orthodox or not. This isn’t a view I’m attached to by any means and I’m more then comfortable submitting to the Church’s wisdom on this. The main reason was to sharpen my (and hopefully others) perspective and clarity on the Eastern perspective (which has been accomplished) and also to understand the relationship between God, Mary, original sin, and matter (which is still fuzzy).
On to your post…
Remember when I said that Nestorian was bent on not having God come into contact with any matter? And that the East seemed to go to the other extreme of that? In other words, God has to come in contact with matter. I say east only because the west doesn’t focus in on the biological consequences as much as the East. Keep that in mind in context with my responses.
First off let clarify two things.
--immortal was perhaps a poorly chosen word. As long as you know I’m talking about Mary being just like the pre-fallen Eve. It’s reasonable to assume that Eve and Adam we’re not going to die, suffer, etc. Do you consider them immortal?
--I think we are looking at the term “human/humanity” differently. Unless I’m mistaken, your view of “human” seems to almost exclude the pre-fallen Adam and Eve. As if “human” had to mean anyone that is inclined to sin and is suffering the consequences. What does that make the pre-fallen Adam and Eve? Not humans? You said:
It's completely setting Mary apart from the rest of the human race, as if she's not one of us…
If Mary was like the pre-fallen Eve, wouldn’t He still be assuming her humanity? Not unless you don’t consider the pre-fallen Eve human?
I looked closely to find the answer to why Christ had to be born of a corrupt flesh. You said:
But first, Christ didn't HAVE to be born of a human woman at all. He, the Logos, could have pealed back the heavens, put a flaming cross in the sky (as Carl Sagan would have wanted) and waved a magic wand...if the goal is to simply pardon our sins, or to prove He is God....But there is more to it that just that...God wants a relationship with us.....the pealing back the heavens of course wouldn't cause anyone to have faith, or a relationship, only fear and dread at the terrible being who one night tore open the sky to pardon our misdeeds. But that doesn't "fix" anything....it doesn't make as a new creation in Christ, because God would still be way up/out there, instead of right here. (the Kingdom of heaven is at hand)
So, if I understood you correctly. You’re basically saying that God had to inherit her flesh because He wants a relationship with us? That somehow He couldn’t accomplish this unless he assumed Mary’s flesh? I don’t mean to discourage you, but I find this answer lacking. What I proposed would still have God having a relationship with us.
I understand that Christ assumes His humanity from her. If the nature of Mary's humanity is different, then so also is the nature of Christ's humanity. Any change to Mary affects Christ. I got it…I really do. But other then telling me that it had to happen in order for him to have a relationship with us, I don’t get why it must when an alternative would work just fine.
Let's review:
1. Christ had to assume the consequences.
2. This means going through a corrupt body in Mary (except inclination to sin).
3. If Mary can’t die, suffer, etc. then neither can Christ.
4. Christ can transform his body into a corrupt one if He so wishes to, but chooses not to because He wants a relationship with us? He had to get it from his Mother?
I hope I got this right. I separated them as I did on purpose because it seems the east struggles to separate them at all. When you guys think of transmission of sin, you guys think of both biological and supernaturally. Breaking it down can really throw you guys off (as it can for some in the west), but I think I’m still holding on to some of my protestant views that help me step back and not really see it through RC or EO lens.
My answers to the reviews:
1. Agreed……I’m not even arguing this at all.
2. Well, you said yourself: He might take on a mortal body, of course He could……so He didn’t have to get it from Mary. He’s God, he can snap His fingers and get a body that can die, suffer, etc.
3. Well this goes with no. 2. Christ didn’t need Mary in order to die, suffer, etc.
4. This follows from the previous ones, but you still haven’t said why other then Him getting it from His Mother has us have a relationship with Him?
If you think you’ve exhausted your ability to explain why Christ had to assume His humanity from His Mother, that’s ok. You have helped me sharpen my view of the east though. Hopefully a fellow RC can step in and help.
It’s greatly appreciated…thanks.
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"Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. . . . " G.K. Chesterton
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Victor
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 10:20 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: How could someone be partly immortal? Isn't that like being partly dead? Or partly human? Or partly pregnant? Or partly redeemed?
I was trying to describe the condition of the pre-fallen Adam and Eve. Were they not immortal?
Couldn't we technically be called immortal as well? Since we don't die spiritually?
When I said "immortal" I'm talking about someone that can't die physically and spiritually.
On a side note, I'd argue that the word "immortal" shouldn't even be used when speaking about God. Why? Because "immortality" assume a beginning. We all know that doesn't apply to God. But since we have to use words we can understand and relate to, immortality is the best we got.
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"Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. . . . " G.K. Chesterton
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Victor
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