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left coast mystic
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| Joined: | Sat May 10th, 2008 |
| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
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| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 04:50 am |
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I just mentioned this in another thread but I want to expand on something that God has been pointing out to me ever more strongly over the past week or so:
Why is the Catholic Church the subject of such hatred from other christians?
I've noticed that except for the hard-core fundamentalists who suspect (and shun) anyone outside their own congregations, most christians will give other denominations the benefit of the doubt, even if they know nothing about what those other denominations teach.
I as an evangelical Presbyterian have never heard other Presbyterians speak with suspicion or hatred of Methodists or Lutherans or Congregationalists. Even when there is a clear difference in basic tenets of faith, such as exists between Presbyterians (or Lutherans or Episcopalians) and Baptists, I've never heard people of one protestant denomination say that people in the other denominations aren't saved, or that they're involved with the whore of babylon (or similar hateful things).
And people who are long-time members of one denomination are just as unlikely to know anything about the others as they are to know anything about the CC. Yet they assume that the tenets of faith in other protestant denominations are basically the same as their own, but have no compunction about strongly asserting that the CC is in grave error or heresy, even though they've never bothered to learn anything about any denomination outside their own.
Why the fear - so strong that a practicing christian often isn't willing to even engage in a conversation where Catholicism is defended, even mildly? If that's not a sign of Satan trying to prevent God's people from hearing the truth, I don't know what is! I don't see any other explanation that fits the excessive reactions that people have to even the mention of Catholicism. The same christians don't react that strongly to the infiltration of truly heretical thinking into our society and our churches.
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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Free
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 11:18 am |
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In my thinking on this issue, I see both a human explanation and a spiritual one.
In human terms, the hatred for the Church is inevitable because all of those sects who have separated from the Church did it with the intention of rejecting the Catholic Church. The hatred is inbred. It is generational. It is the very foundation on which their sects are built. Whether the Protestants are of the Reformed strain or the Anabaptist, being against the Church was their original reason for coming into being.
In another thread I mentioned that on a personal level, the anti-Catholic tendency in me was as deep as my DNA. It was part of our family identity, and had been for generations. Both my grandfather and great-grandfather were members of the Ku Klux Klan here in Michigan and their primary targets were Catholics. That side of my family are of the Anabaptist strain, having been Amish when they came over from Switzerland. The other side of my family are of the Reformed strain, so their anti-Catholicism revealed itself more subtly, making it much harder to detect and to renounce.
In spiritual terms, the hatred for the Catholic Church is inevitable since hell is attempting to prevail against it. Just as Jesus' physical body was spit upon, scourged, beaten and pierced, so too the Body of Christ, his bride, his Catholic Church, is maltreated. Yet he himself has told us that the gates of hell will not prevail against it, and we who are Catholics believe him.
And we who were Protestants who have become Catholics have paid a great price to not only believe him with our minds and hearts, but with our bodies. All of us have lost friends, many of us have lost family. Yet all of us have gained glorious peace, joy, hope and love to have joined our bodies to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church established by our One Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 01:27 pm |
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Ladies, I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head. I see no reason to add anything but my agreement.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 01:33 pm |
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Amen.
I will add only this to show what some of us were up against in overcoming indoctrination.
When I was a little girl, my mother had a talk with me and in "sacred," hushed tones explained that the second worst thing a daughter could do to her parents was to grow up and marry a Catholic. I took comfort, at the time, in the fact that I knew no Catholics--hard to see how I could be in danger of marrying one and breaking my parents' hearts if there were no Catholics in the community. Unreal.
BeckyLast edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2008 01:38 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Free
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 02:18 pm |
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Becky, your story about how your mother indoctrinated you reminds me of a story about my brother. When my older brother was in the 9th grade, my grandfather found out that he was dating a Catholic girl. He leaned on my parents to break them up, and they did. Both teenagers were deeply hurt, and that is when my brother started to turn away from Christianity altogether. When I was of dating age, I went steady with a Catholic boy, and my mother used a different tactic with me. She invited a nice Presbyterian boy and his mother to dinner, and then the boy's mother invited me to dinner at their house. Sure enough, I broke up with the Catholic boy to date the Presbyterian boy! And I never figured out my mother's intentions until years later.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 02:33 pm |
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Free wrote:
Becky, your story about how your mother indoctrinated you reminds me of a story about my brother. When my older brother was in the 9th grade, my grandfather found out that he was dating a Catholic girl. He leaned on my parents to break them up, and they did. Both teenagers were deeply hurt, and that is when my brother started to turn away from Christianity altogether. When I was of dating age, I went steady with a Catholic boy, and my mother used a different tactic with me. She invited a nice Presbyterian boy and his mother to dinner, and then the boy's mother invited me to dinner at their house. Sure enough, I broke up with the Catholic boy to date the Presbyterian boy! And I never figured out my mother's intentions until years later.
Mothers! Can't live with them, can't live without them! 
As a mother, I fervently prayed for twenty-eight years that God would give my son a devout Christian wife. Imagine my surprise when he proposed to a Catholic woman. I soon realized that God had taken my prayers and used them to bless me, as well as my son.
Now I'm Catholic, my daughter-in-law is Catholic, my baby grandson is Catholic. The Blessed Mother has her loving arm round my son's shoulders. What a day of rejoicing that will be!
Grace and peace,
Becky
Last edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2008 02:34 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 03:40 pm |
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| While anti-Catholic attitudes may be traditional in our times and without factual foundation, they are all around us. I think it helps to understand the situation if we recognize that each of the reformers had complaints regarding Church doctrine, Church interpretation of Scripture, or the power of the Church. In addition to that, ALL current non-reformer protestant religions have been started the same way. Somebody got upset about something and went off and started their own religion where they could be the "king-pin". Now days however, when I ask a person why they are objecting to the Catholic Churchor what point of doctrine do they disagree with, they usually have the doctrine all wrong or they are referring to a concept which does NOT acually exist. It is something like the childhood game of "Gossip". Someone started a anti-Catholic idea 100 years ago and it is still going around and growing by the decade.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 07:27 pm |
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For one thing, the hatred is prevalent because the Catholic Church is a huge target, by sheer size and influence. It's like one of those great big red barns in the countryside that we've all seen, whereas Protestant denominations are more like moving ducks at a carnival: there are far too many to get "mad" at any one of them, and they are moving targets. Even if one takes a few shots, one is likely to miss. It is the very mountain-like "immovability" of Catholic doctrine that is oddly despised by so many.
Secondly, the Catholic Church is the victim of more misrepresentation than any other religious belief, in my opinion. Why? Well, I suspect that it is equal parts ignorance and hostility that is borne of ignorance. So we often see criticisms "of" Catholicism that really aren't at all, because we don't believe what it is claimed that we believe. Rather, it's a straw man, or warring against windmills, like Don Quixote.
Thirdly, we teach a very strict morality (because we have preserved apostolic Christian morality). Folks don't like that and so in order to counter it they run down the Catholic Church, so they can feel more comfortable in rejecting it. Evangelicals get some of this, too, but Catholics more so because we are stricter on divorce, contraception, masturbation, etc., and even things like compulsory church attendance every Sunday and dietary requirements during Lent.
What G.K. Chesterton observed about Christianity applies especially to Catholic Christianity:
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried."
Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 07:47 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 05:31 am |
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I used to get worked up over why people would hate Catholicism and the Church as an institution so much. Yes, it bothers me still. But as I get older, I can't help but feeling sorry for so many misled people who have never had the opportunity understand what God has already given them thousands of years ago.
For those who left the Church for a while but really want to come back, we can count on them not to join with the worst of our worst tormenters: professional Catholic Church haters -- some of whom are former Catholics themselves who have taken it upon themselves to play Moses and lead their fellow co-religionists out to some Protestant paradise where Popery will no longer exist.
What psychologically imbalanced people these professional Church haters are and ever will be. Given their sadly embittered nature and bigoted hearts filled with little more than putrifying hatred, quite frankly I'll be proud to be known and judged by my enemies/our enemies. For it is their utter darkness that'll add contrast needed to highlight God's Truth and Love for all of us -- if we truly want it.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Robert
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 09:21 am |
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If that's not a sign of Satan trying to prevent God's people from hearing the truth, I don't know what is!
In spiritual terms, the hatred for the Catholic Church is inevitable since hell is attempting to prevail against it.
That’s why Satanists have Black Masses and not Black Bible Studies or Alter Calls. They know what the real thing is! 
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 12:19 pm |
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Robert, so true! While many Protestants consider the Catholic Church a tool of the devil, real Satanists consider the Church their worst enemy. What an irony — like Jesus himself being accused of casting out demons by the power of the prince of demons (Luke 11:15–16 and parallels).
David
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Robert
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 01:23 pm |
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Hi Dave,
To be perfectly honest, I really don’t think the average Protestant cares one way or the other. But I do believe that Protestants are constantly searching for a true identity outside of the true church. Something that just can’t be. I’m sure many know that the second they admit that Protestantism is wide of the mark they either have to come into the Church or ???.
The identity of Protestantism is firmly coupled to the Catholic Church. It’s like looking into perfectly good mirror with cracked (protestant) eyeglasses and than saying the mirror is flawed.
Last edited on Tue Jul 8th, 2008 01:26 pm by Robert
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 03:29 pm |
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I really don’t think the average Protestant cares one way or the other.
This is true of some mainline Protestants, but definitely not all. Often just beneath the surface is an assumption that the pope is the antichrist and Catholics are deceived by a diabolical, twisted Church. This “attitude of denial” typically makes its appearance when contradicted by real world evidence.
Evangelicals (in the American sense of the word) are much more openly anti-Catholic. I have encountered a large percentage who truly believe that Catholics are under the spell of Satan, and they are not afraid to say so.
But I do believe that Protestants are constantly searching for a true identity outside of the true church. Something that just can’t be. I’m sure many know that the second they admit that Protestantism is wide of the mark they either have to come into the Church or ???.
This is what I often refer to as the “anything but Catholic” attitude. But I believe that where you say that “many know” — in reality, it is a subconscious sense, not an active awareness. Otherwise, there would be a lot more Protestants nervously asking questions.
What we are oberving, Robert, may be merely the difference between European and American Protestants. Or it may be a difference in our awareness of the actual attitudes of those around us.
I live in a rather isolated, largely Catholic area (75 percent claim to be Catholic), but only about 20 percent of them are observant. Of those non-observers who listen to their conscience, a sizeable proportion turn to Evangelical congregations. Part of this is a matter of finding acceptance after divorce and remarriage (a huge issue in contemporary western society as a whole), and part is an attitude that the “establishment” — meaning the Catholic Church — is a dead letter (they “didn’t find Christ” in it).
But to return to your original point for a moment: I have known a number of Satanists, neo-pagans, wiccans, voodoo/native animist believers, atheists, etc. Their animosity toward Christianity, and toward the Catholic Church in particular, is so evident and so pointed that it cannot be dismissed as an aberration. For this reason, I do believe that these people truly “know the real thing” and reject it.
David
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Robert
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 03:50 pm |
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What we are oberving, Robert, may be merely the difference between European and American Protestants.
Not exactly. I know both quite well, and in fact have written a book (in German) on anti-Catholic proselytizing here in Germany.
You do however mention Evangelicals, who are IMO really the major source of anti-catholicism. the difference here is that "free church" Evangelicals are not main stream and are looked on as bible thumping kooks by most. Mainstream here is Luthren with a touch of Reformend.
And yes J.T.Chick, Dave Hunt, Alex. Hislop, et al can be found in any "Christian" Bookshop.
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 05:28 pm |
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[It’s] not exactly [the difference between European and American Protestants]. I know both quite well, and in fact have written a book (in German) on anti-Catholic proselytizing here in Germany.
I’m willing to accept that my observations may be limited by a provincial horizon. I live a long way from any center of culture.
The difference here is that "free church" Evangelicals are not main stream and are looked on as bible thumping kooks by most.
In my area, Baptist, Pentecostal and Word of Faith are popular, but tiny “non-denominational” congregations are everywhere. (I would prefer your term, “free church,” because “non-denominational” has several meanings, not all of which are applicable. But local usage calls them “non-denominational,” so I defer to that.) So long as they accept contraception and divorced/remarried, they will be full of ex-Catholics, as they are today.
But there are some Catholics who have returned to the faith in spite of their inability to receive the sacraments, and I recognize their heroic acceptance of God’s reality. One sits beside me at the Vigil Mass nearly every Saturday.
And yes J.T. Chick, Dave Hunt, Alex. Hislop, et al can be found in any "Christian" Bookshop.
True, but they are a species apart. I’ve been speaking of non-militants. And there are a lot more of them.
David
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stephaniek
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 06:43 pm |
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I have to share a couple stories where unity and Christian love has been shared between both groups. The area where I lived most of my childhood and where there were very few Catholic families experienced a large influx of new residents who happened to be Catholic. Since it was in a rural area quite a ways from a church the locals who were mostly Baptist and Pentecostal got together and help build a Catholic mission.
I then moved about 30 miles away to a predominantly Catholic area and the priest was a frequent guest at our Sunday night services. My church was truly blessed with some talented musicians and he enjoyed the music. About four years ago arsonists set fire to my former Southern Baptist church and it was the Catholic church that opened its fellowship hall for use as a temporary worship area. It hasn't always been that way but around here it is getting better as far as respect between the various denominations go.
Last edited on Tue Jul 8th, 2008 06:45 pm by stephaniek
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 01:10 am |
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Bravo, Stephanie! Isn’t it wonderful when people cooperate in charity instead of fighting? I wish it could be as you describe everywhere and all the time.
The sad fact is that it isn’t. Human beings often harbor fear and hostility that make it impossible for them to be charitable.
And that is what this thread is about: the failures of Christians to be Christians. To be fair, I’ve seen some reprehensible actions on the part of Catholics, too. But having been Catholic all of my adult life, I’ve been on the receiving end of a Protestant “left foot of fellowship” on a good number of occasions. Fortunately, very few of these incidents, in either direction, have been on this forum. Here, we consider the lack of charity in either direction as simply not Christian.
This is why we do not hesitate to listen to your experience, Stephanie. I personally prefer to look at the good experiences of others instead of my own less agreeable ones, because it helps to restore my faith in the Catholic principle that non-Catholic Christians are truly Christians. I hope that this meets with your approval, because you certainly meet with mine.
David
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stephaniek
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 02:09 am |
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I do understand the negative bias out there. It's not pretty. I have seen it and even believed it when I was younger. My best friend in high school's grandmother helped me see through a lot of the lies by how she lived her faith out day in and day out. She and I had some of the best conversations about faith.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 02:23 am |
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My best friend in high school's grandmother helped me see through a lot of the lies by how she lived her faith out day in and day out. She and I had some of the best conversations about faith.
Then you understand perfectly. I hope your stay here is as with your friend’s grandmother, because that’s how it’s supposed to be among all Christians, ourselves included. Luke 6:27–36
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 02:35 am |
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stephaniek wrote: I have to share a couple stories where unity and Christian love has been shared between both groups. The area where I lived most of my childhood and where there were very few Catholic families experienced a large influx of new residents who happened to be Catholic. Since it was in a rural area quite a ways from a church the locals who were mostly Baptist and Pentecostal got together and help build a Catholic mission.
I then moved about 30 miles away to a predominantly Catholic area and the priest was a frequent guest at our Sunday night services. My church was truly blessed with some talented musicians and he enjoyed the music. About four years ago arsonists set fire to my former Southern Baptist church and it was the Catholic church that opened its fellowship hall for use as a temporary worship area. It hasn't always been that way but around here it is getting better as far as respect between the various denominations go.
It's always been that way in South Louisiana, according to my experience. Back when we had church fairs, the Protestant members of our community would come out in force to work in the booths and help to raise money for our parish.
Such is not always the case even in North Louisiana. My first taste of discrimination was back in the 60's in a small north Louisiana town where I visited for a summer. I was about 12 years old, and I was "the Catholic". The owner of the local soda fountain would not let me enter and I was not permitted in the movie theatre. There were other signs of discrimination as well. As unpleasant as it was for me, it was a very good learning experience for a young white boy in the South in the early 60's.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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stephaniek
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 02:45 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: My best friend in high school's grandmother helped me see through a lot of the lies by how she lived her faith out day in and day out. She and I had some of the best conversations about faith.
Then you understand perfectly. I hope your stay here is as with your friend’s grandmother, because that’s how it’s supposed to be among all Christians, ourselves included. Luke 6:27–36
David
We are supposed to be known by our love for each other and that is sometimes the last thing people see or feel.
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Robert
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 12:13 pm |
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We are supposed to be known by our love for each other and that is sometimes the last thing people see or feel.
Let’s not get lost in the comfy-cosy world of false ecumenism. Protestantism must deny the primacy of the Church of Christ* in order to survive.
Although there are some basic and common “essentials” the truth of the RCC is essentially denied! They must have a reason for being Christians outside of the communion with the universal church that Jesus founded or cease to be.
When I hear Catholics calling for intercommunion, female clergy, same sex marriage, I know that they have been protestantized.
*The true name of the Catholic Church and not to be confused with the "Stone-Campbell Movement" COC.
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Stupid Questions
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:04 pm |
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Can I butt in and add maybe a dissenting voice for my third post. I have a little thing about words being used properly.
I appreciate the sentiments expressed in this post, but I am not convinced that "hate" and "hatred" are the correct words here.
I say that from observing the militant homosexual rights groups. I am led to believe that because I morally believe that homosexuality is against God's design and because I politically believe that homosexual marriage is a bad idea, that somehow I have "hatred" against gays and am anti-gay (I assume we all have observed how the gay rights groups bandy the "hate" word around against us morally conservative Christians).
I guess I just don't like to see Christians use the same type of bad logic against each other. Logically if religion "A" (being not an inclusive religion) believes that religion "B" is wrong to the extent that the adherents of religion "B" are all eternally damned, it does not follow that religion "A" hates the adherents of religion "B" (now religion "A" might be dead wrong in their assumptions, but that is a separate issue).
That having been said, I appreciate the overall sentiment and agree with much of it. I just think the words "hate" and "hatred" are a little over-the-top (now don't ask me what the right words are).
I similarly would prefer "antiCatholicism" to "antiCatholic" but I admit this one is probably nitpicking.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1644 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 03:42 pm |
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