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Ken Follis
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | Ken | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Charismatic Episcopal Church; Roman Catholic Church (1999) |
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Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 06:33 pm |
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There have been many CEC priests and laity on the Journey Home over the years- Fr. David Utsler, Fr. & Dr. Jim Shelton, Jim Pinto (revert), Fr. Mike Cumbie, Fr. Steve Anderson (RCC priest), Fr. Vaughn Treco, and Fr. David Zampino. Jeff Cavins was en route to being a CEC priest before reverting back to Rome. Dr. Paul Thigpen, another guest and convert, was responsible for the explosive growth of the CEC with an article he was assigned to write that gave the CEC international attention in 1992/93. Additionally, former CEC archbishop Randy Sly is now a RCC layman.
There are many lay converts to the Roman Catholic Church coming from the CEC, as well. For those unaware, they are not Anglican or Episcopal USA clergy or laymen. The CEC is a communion that has bishops ordained by Bishop Mendez who had been ordained by Roman Catholic bishop +Carlos Duarte Costa of Brazil. Their baptism is Trinitarian and Sacramental, their Confirmation follows the Roman rite and their Ordinations had the correct form and intention. I believe their Eucharist follows the correct form and intention as well.
Is there proof in the Vatican that +Costa was excommunicated? Costa consecrated +Ferraz who did return back to the Church. Ferraz was married and yet recognized canonically as a Bishop. (Perhaps he and his wife took a "brother and sister" oath?) Ferraz is the only Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Bishop I know of who was married since the mandatory discipline of celibacy by both East and West. He also took part in Vatican II.
Could the CEC folks come back to Rome as a uniate Church? Since they are baptized and confirmed, do they need to be rebaptized or reconfirmed? Can deacons be deacons, priests a priest still? Do they need RCIA or should they, barring any illegitimate marriages, make their Profession of Faith, make their first RC Confession ( with Act of Contrition and Absolution), do their Penance and receive the Eucharist?
Any insight will be beneficial. God help them.
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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JasPax
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 07:32 pm |
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Ken Follis wrote: Could the CEC folks come back to Rome as a uniate Church? Since they are baptized and confirmed, do they need to be rebaptized or reconfirmed? Can deacons be deacons, priests a priest still? Do they need RCIA or should they, barring any illegitimate marriages, make their Profession of Faith, make their first RC Confession ( with Act of Contrition and Absolution), do their Penance and receive the Eucharist?
Hello Ken,
Welcome.
Rick and/or David will probably have more extensive answers but I can make a few comments.
I think it would be wonderful if an entire "Anglican" denomination would return to Mother Church. Using the case of Fr. Bergman's Episcopa Parish in Scranton as a model; those parishioners who came to the CC had some sort of RCIA instruction with a priest assigned by the Catholic Bishop. As a former Episcopaiian, I assure you, there are many differences we need to understand. The instruction required varies from diocese to diocese and often varies in individual cases.
The priests would need to go through the Pastoral Provision process to be re-ordained. I am not sure about deacons. Are there lady priests/ deacons in the CEC? That would present a problem. Any CEC priest who was formerly Catholic, divorced, etc., would probably not be considered for the Pastoral Provision process. I cannot answer your question about the validity of the ordination of the Bishop(s) you mentioned. Normally, the CC does not recognize the ordination of Anglican Bishops as being valid.
No, there would be no need for candidates (lay persons) to be re-baptized. But there would be a new confirmation process. It is a wonderful experience!
I am not an expert in all of this. But maybe it will get you started in your inquiry.
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Ken Follis
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Ken | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Charismatic Episcopal Church; Roman Catholic Church (1999) |
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Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 07:45 pm |
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Thanks, James, for the quick reply and for the "Welcome!". I have been a fan of the forum for years now.
You wrote, "Any CEC priest who was formerly Catholic, divorced, etc., would probably not be considered for the Pastoral Provision process."
I think they understand that, as in James Pinto's case. However last year, Fr. James Stetson who is the Pastoral Provison liasion stated that the PP only applies to Anglican clergy. The CEC is not Anglican. Fr. Steve Anderson is now a Roman Catholic priest but that was due to his having received the needed training required and passing the psychological requirement. As of yet, no parish with priest has entered in collectively as with Alex Jones and Fr. Bergman's parishes. I think it is due to the confusion of what Rome is expecting of Catholics only two bishops (50 years) removed from Rome versus those Anglicans who are 500 years.
You wrote, "I cannot answer your question about the validity of the ordination of the Bishop(s) you mentioned. Normally, the CC does not recognize the ordination of Anglican Bishops as being valid." Again, they are not Anglican. They are Catholics under Bishop Mendez. Episcopal is in their title to signify they are "under Bishops".
Last you mention, "No, there would be no need for candidates (lay persons) to be re-baptized. But there would be a new confirmation process."
Why one and not the other? What source is there to give them? Is RCIA necessary for those who are already baptized?
(FYI, I am Roman Catholic)
Last edited on Fri Oct 26th, 2007 08:00 pm by Ken Follis
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 09:41 pm |
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Ken Follis wrote: Could the CEC folks come back to Rome as a uniate Church?
It is not impossible. The Holy Father has the authority to recognize their orders, and if their orders are recognized, the sacraments they administered would be recognized as well. Frankly, I doubt it because the CEC is not currently recognized as having valid sacraments and orders, but then again, the Assyrian Church of the East was only recently recognized as valid by the Catholic Church.
Ordination by a Catholic bishop is not enough, whether he is excommunicated or not. A bishop does not have the authority to ordain another bishop without the express approval of the Vatican. Priests are another matter, since a bishop who is the ordinary of a diocese does indeed have the authority to determine who is a proper candidate for the priesthood. However, if the bishop was not the ordinary of a diocese, he does not have the faculties to ordain priest.
When bishops ordain other bishops, they do so on behalf of the entire Church. That's how apostolic succession is passed. It is not from bishop to bishop; it is from the Church to the bishop. And a bishop who ordains another bishop without the approval of the entire Church is breaking apostolic succession. That is the case today with the "official" Patriotic Association of China.
Still, the Holy Father has the authority legitimize ordinations after the fact if it is in the interest of the Universal Church. This was done with the Polish National Catholic Church, which is recognized today as having valid sacraments and orders, and is in talks to reunite as a "uniate" Church.
And by the way, the Pastoral Provision was originally intended for Anglican priests who join the Catholic Church with a large part of their congregation. It has since been broadened to permit individual Anglican/Episcopal priests (such as our own Fr. Gnyssa) and ministers of other faiths (particularly Methodists and Lutherans) to become Catholic priests. The Pastoral Provision does indeed require re-ordination, and those who join the Church receive all of the sacraments over again except Baptism and possibly Matrimony.
But the Pastoral Provision was never intended to cover the return of an entire ecclesial community to the Catholic fold. Such matters are handled individually and involve years of discussion on doctrinal and disciplinary matters. Ultimately, the decisions all fall to the Holy Father.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Ken Follis
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Ken | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Charismatic Episcopal Church; Roman Catholic Church (1999) |
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 07:08 pm |
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You wrote, "Ordination by a Catholic bishop is not enough, whether he is excommunicated or not. A bishop does not have the authority to ordain another bishop without the express approval of the Vatican. Priests are another matter, since a bishop who is the ordinary of a diocese does indeed have the authority to determine who is a proper candidate for the priesthood. However, if the bishop was not the ordinary of a diocese, he does not have the faculties to ordain priest. When bishops ordain other bishops, they do so on behalf of the entire Church. That's how apostolic succession is passed. It is not from bishop to bishop; it is from the Church to the bishop. And a bishop who ordains another bishop without the approval of the entire Church is breaking apostolic succession."
I have admit this is news to me and contrary to what more than one theologian and priest has told me but it does make sense.
Do you have reference to the officials canons on this?
Also, do you know where I can find official information showing that Bishops like Milingo and Costa were excommunicated?
Last edited on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 07:40 pm by Ken Follis
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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Ken Follis
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Ken | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Charismatic Episcopal Church; Roman Catholic Church (1999) |
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 07:14 pm |
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Here are two sites by former CEC-ers that have helped us find our way:
http://z6.invisionfree.com/On_Our_Way_Home/index.php?act=idx
http://forum.ancient-future.net/index.php?act=idx
Also, my gratitude is toward the CH Network. Back in the late 1990's I was able to get the Journey Home on Sky Angel satellite. It was there in West Texas, while pastoring, that an episode on the Holy Mother with Tim Staples removed the last theological obstacle on my journey home. Thanks, Marcus, Tim and Mother Angelica!!!
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 10:05 pm |
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Ken Follis wrote: Also, do you know where I can find official information showing that Bishops like Milingo and Costa were excommunicated?
Regarding Archbishop Milingo, you can find reference to the excommunications and the Canons involved at Zenit. I could not find any reference to a Bishop Costa; the search brought up "Costa Rica" instead. You can search at http://www.zenit.org to find a Reference:
The articles on Milingo make it clear that the ordinations by Milingo are not considered valid by the Church because those he ordained were not approved by the Vatican. Further, those "ordained" by Milingo are also excommunicated.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Ken Follis
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Posted: Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 10:38 pm |
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Rick,
I had some interesting correspondence with some Catholics on this on the link. I may be off when it comes to the "two or more bishop for validity" concept. I guess the question for me is which communions, according to Dominus Iesus, have a valid Succession and Eucharist to be considered 'particular churches' versus 'ecclesial communities'?
http://forum.ancient-future.net/index.php?showtopic=255&st=0&#entry7953693
The definition you give, which I find to be accurate, does leave some ambiguity since the Eastern Orthodox do not meet the standard for valid bishops since they certainly have not sought Papal approval for nearly 1000 years.
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 11:27 pm |
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Ken Follis wrote: The definition you give, which I find to be accurate, does leave some ambiguity since the Eastern Orthodox do not meet the standard for valid bishops since they certainly have not sought Papal approval for nearly 1000 years.
It's not papal approval but patriarchal approval. The pope just also happens to be the patriarch of the Latin Rite, so it is his approval that is needed in the Catholic Church.
While all bishops are the successors of the apostles, the patriarchs represent the apostolic sees. (Additional patriarchies have been created in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.) When the Orthodox and Catholics split, they did so in union with their respective patriarchs. When groups such as the Anglicans split, they did not remain in union with their patriarch, the bishop of the See of Peter.
So bringing in a validly ordained bishop is not sufficient. The bishop is there representing the entire heirarchy of the particular Church in question. If he does not have the support of that Church, the ordination is not valid. It would be comparable to a single cardinal choosing and installing a pope. A single cardinal may indeed install a pope (in fact, he can install himself) but only if he is validly elected by the entire Conclave of Cardinal electors. (He's already the pope when he's installed; he becomes pope the moment he accepts the position if he is already an ordained bishop.)
One of the questions that remains to be answered in the dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox is the appointment of bishops. When the Great Schism of 1054 took place, the patriarch was the appointing authority, and the bishops of each Church chose their patriarch. Since then, the Catholic Church changed the rules and requires the approval of the pope for all appointments to the episcopacy. The Orthodox will not accept having to seek approval of the bishop of Rome, nor (in my opinion) should they. So that rule will have to be changed. It is a matter of discipline, not doctrine, so changing it would not be a big deal as long as an agreement can be reached. Will the bishops of the Byzantine Catholic Church be willing to accept the authority of the Greek Orthodox patriarch? Will their churches merge or remain separate? But these questions are mechanical and not doctrinal and can be resolved after full intercommunion takes place, if necessary.
The situation with other ecclesial bodies, such as TAC, is entirely different. They are not currently recognized as a valid Church with valid ordination and valid sacraments. Much would have to be done (such as the resignation of any invalidly married priests) before they would become an acceptable body to be absorbed en masse, and it's possible that some ordinations of priests and bishops might not be considered valid either. But if both sides truly want it to happen and are willing to take the steps necessary to accomplish it, it will happen.
As for the Churches that are considered valid, they are the Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental), the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Church. Members of these Churches are welcomed to receive the sacraments of Penance, Eucharist, and Anointing of the Sick in the Catholic Church (although in most cases, their own Churches prohibit intercommunion).
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Ken Follis
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 25th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Ken | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Charismatic Episcopal Church; Roman Catholic Church (1999) |
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Posted: Sun Nov 4th, 2007 12:07 am |
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| Thank you, Rick!
____________________
Jer. 6:16 "Stand, Look, Ask and Walk!"
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
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Posted: Tue Nov 6th, 2007 04:15 pm |
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We have two former Charismatic Episcopal Priests here. One has been in the Church for about four years now, and works with Fr. Frank Pavone in Priests for Life, the other just came into the Church this past Easter. The first has his papers into Rome. The other had been waiting for our new bishop. So Lord willing we will have two priests here.
Last edited on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 04:16 pm by Pani Rose
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