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Esther
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| First Name: | Esther | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist to Roman Catholic 11/26/06 |
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 09:39 am |
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I have been trying to wrap my brain around all of the different Catholic Churches. But I have a couple of questions.
One of the biggest drawing factors to the Church was I saw the authority Jesus established by giving Peter the Keys to the Kingdom in Matt 16. So here is my questions, why is it ok to not be in union with the Pope? Why do they not have to believe when he speaks on matters of faith is infallible?
Do the other Catholic Churches have all of the same doctrines and dogmas that we do? If not, what are the major differences? (Save the issue on the Holy Spirit. I believe I am starting to understand that) How do they feel about contraception, previous marriages, abortion, and other moral issues? After reading a previous thread I understand that they do not believe in the Assumption of our Blessed Lady she was without sin?
If I went to a Sunday Divine Liturgy at a Greek Orthodox Church, would that fulfill my Sunday obligation?
Last but not least, why choose the RCC then?
Sorry for 21 questions. I appreciate any perspective you can provide!
God bless,
Esther
Last edited on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 10:06 am by Esther
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Esther
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Kansas City, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 144 |
| First Name: | Esther | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist to Roman Catholic 11/26/06 |
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 10:33 am |
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| It has been my understanding that Jesus established Apostolic Succession and Authority to protect the truth and define the truth. How is it that several Catholic Churches, all with valid Apostolic succession (and Authority), could believe different things? How do we know which one is right? I thought that was the point of the Church to guide us on those kinds of things, but how can that be accomplished if the Church as a whole cannot agree?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 04:10 pm |
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I think, Esther, that you are confusing the Eastern Catholic Churches with the Orthodox Churches. They are not the same thing.
The Orthodox are not Catholic; they do not accept the universal authority of the pope. Even though the Catholic Church recognizes their priesthood and sacraments, unless there is no Catholic liturgy available, a Catholic cannot fulfill his Sunday obligation by attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
The Eastern Catholic Churches are in fact Catholic, and they do accept the universal authority of the pope and adhere to their papal-assigned norms, such as canon law and liturgy. All Catholic doctrine is the same, but it may be expressed and practiced in different ways, according to the different traditions within the Church.
For instance, only Roman Rite Catholics speak of purgatory, but there is an equivalent theology of theosis in the eastern Churches which has been accepted by the Vatican. The Eastern Catholic Churches are also not required to recite the Nicene Creed including the filioque (the Holy Spirit proceeding from both Father and Son); Catholic theology on both sides of this issue has resolved the difference as being mostly verbal, so there is no real conflict. Again, the Assumption has its equivalent in eastern theology (the Dormition), and for Eastern Catholics, this is accepted.
So while there is a difference in both liturgical and theological tradition, there is no danger of the different sui juris Churches within the Catholic Church believing different things. They believe the same basic things, but using different words and approaches.
Orthodox theology is almost identical to that of the Eastern Catholic Churches. What keeps us apart is mostly political. I know some Orthodox would dispute this, but when you look at their objections, there is not much substance to the claim. We are a lot closer than they want to acknowledge.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 04:13 pm |
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Esther wrote: So here is my questions, why is it ok to not be in union with the Pope? Why do they not have to believe when he speaks on matters of faith is infallible?
All true Catholic Churches are in union with the pope and have the same doctrines and dogmas, although they might use different terminology to express them. For example, Eastern Churches tend not to use the term "purgatory" but do believe in ongoing purification after death in a process known as "Theosis". They accept all of the teachings of the Church including the Assumption (which some call the "Dormition"), and Mary's sinlessness. The interpretation of Original Sin is different than that taught in the west, but there is agreement on the essentials of the doctrine even though not in the terminology.
Some churches use the term "Catholic" although they are not in union with Rome, such as the Anglican Catholic churches. They are not truly Catholic, although they claim to be.
Orthodox Churches are true Churches recognized by Rome as sister Churches, but not in union with Rome. The Catholic Church has no objection to a Catholic attending Divine Liturgy and receiving sacraments in an Orthodox Church, but the Orthodox do not currently permit it. You cannot fulfill your obligation to attend mass by attending an Orthodox church unless there is no Catholic church available. You can, however, attend any Catholic church including the Eastern Catholic Churches (Byzantine, Ukranian, Maronite, Chaldean, etc.). If you have any doubt as to whether a church is in union with the Catholic Church, call your local parish or diocese, or check on your diocesan web site.
In case of an emergency, a Catholic may receive the sacraments of Penance, Eucharist, and Anointing of the Sick from an Orthodox priest. Any Catholic may receive any sacrament from any Catholic priest, including one of another Rite, at any time, and may fulfill their obligation to attend mass/Divine Liturgy in any Catholic church of any Rite.
It can be a little confusing. If you remember that we all believe the same thing, it will help clear the confusion.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Esther
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Kansas City, Kansas USA |
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| First Name: | Esther | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist to Roman Catholic 11/26/06 |
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Posted: Wed Sep 19th, 2007 10:49 pm |
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| Thank you! That makes much more sense. You're right I was getting it confused. I think I have it a little more straight in my head now.
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brian
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Posted: Thu Sep 20th, 2007 02:17 am |
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So I assume we can fulfill our obligation by going to Eastern Catholic Churches or receive penance not just for the once in a while but can, if we wanted to, go every week ? I hope so, because more weeks than not I attend a Ruthenian Catholic parish and have gone to confession there as well.
I do think that as close as we are to the Orthodox in thought, from a lot of the discussinos I hear, many of them would expect more from us to change than us of them especially regarding papal authority.
Do we regard the Pope as equal to the other Bishops, but with a special authority or charism, or is the pope seen as somehow superior and in authority over the other Bishops?
I ask because of this statement I ran into by an Eastern Catholic Bishop (Grégoire III Laham, Patriarch of Antioch of the Melkites) and I wonder if it is true and how to understand it.
"Really I always say: I am cum Petro but not sub Petro. If I were sub Petro, I would be in submission, and I couldn’t have a true frank, sincere, strong and free communion with the Pope. When you embrace a friend, you are not “below”. You embrace him from the same height, if not it wouldn’t be a true embrace. Unita manent, (united things last)….
"The papacy, since John XXIII, is the most open authority in the world. In no other Church is there such openness and such democratic praxis as in the Church of Rome. But then there are those who want to appear as the super-Catholics, and they then insist and always only on the sub Petro and sub Roma. And so, according to me, they contradict the true sense of the papacy itself, its office to confirm the brethren in the faith. We have suffered for our communion with Rome. For a hundred and fifty years we have said Mass in the catacombs, in Damascus, because we were forbidden do it in public because of our communion with the bishop of Rome. We’re more Roman than the Romans! That’s why we want to benefit from this communion as from a treasure, a gift, a help for our faith. As Saint John says, our faith is our sole victory."
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Sep 20th, 2007 12:53 pm |
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brian wrote:Do we regard the Pope as equal to the other Bishops, but with a special authority or charism, or is the pope seen as somehow superior and in authority over the other Bishops?
Pope John Paul II offered to open this topic for discussion and dialogue if the Orthodox were interested. He indicated that adjustments in Catholic thought were possible. In other words, there is so far no set doctrine on the exact position of the pope in relation to the other bishops and patriarchs. The last two councils (Vatican I and II) have just scratched the surface of this. So far the Orthodox have not indicated enough interest to make such a dialogue happen, but I'm sure Benedict XVI and any future pope would also welcome it.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Sep 20th, 2007 03:41 pm |
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brian wrote: Do we regard the Pope as equal to the other Bishops, but with a special authority or charism, or is the pope seen as somehow superior and in authority over the other Bishops?
The bishop of Rome, as Patriarch of the West, has immediate jurisdiction over the bishops of the Latin Rite. He has also been given authority over the Eastern Catholic Churches, but the bishop of Rome has not traditionally held that authority. Those segments of the Orthodox and Oriental Churches that reunified with Rome were forced to accept jurisdiction by the pope since they were breaking away from their own patriarchs. Thus the Holy Father in effect became patriarch of the entire Catholic Church. Some of the Eastern Catholic Churches do have their own patriarchs today, but they don't really have all of the authority a patriarch has in the Orthodox Churches.
The Orthodox Churches each have their own patriarch. Among the patriarchs, the bishop of Rome has primacy of honor; he is first among equals. John Paul II and Benedict XVI have willingly placed the relationship between the bishop of Rome and the other patriarchs on the table for discussion, as David said.
The Orthodox Churches are legitimate because they have maintained unity with their individual patriarchs, where schismatic churches such as the Anglican church have not. By remaining united with their patriarch, they have maintained apostolic succession and valid sacraments, which the Anglicans and other ecclesial communities have not.
So in the discussion of the relationship and possible reunification of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the role of the bishop of Rome is key. And note that I have used the title "bishop of Rome" rather than "pope" to stress that it is the authority of the Holy See as the see of Peter that gives him primacy.
I know all of this is confusing, but it ha sto do with the equality of apostolic sees and the development of doctrine and discipline over a couple of millenia, and is particularly confusing because of the multiple roles of the pope as bishop of Rome, patriarch of the West, leader of the Universal Church, and monarch of the Vatican City-State.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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