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brian
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 03:12 am |
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I enjoyed the journey home program especially because I love learning more about Eastern and Western Christian issues. I did, however, want to politely question how this falls into place with other things I have recently read possible on this forum about evangelizing the Orthodox. I thought Cajun Rick told me (and please forgive me Rick if it was not you but it was someone of good repute here or elsewhere) that while we welcome any Orthodox who seek to convert, as a point of friendlieness toward them and our respect and a geesture ofunity we do not actively try to convert them.
Yo me is it not possible airing a TV show like this is against this sort of perspective since it was aimed somewhat at other Orthodox and reasons why perhaps Catholiccism is better.
I know the Journey Home is a friendly tv show and not officla church business, and it is friendly and just creating dialogue, and I did enjoy the show and I was glad the mand had converted, but it still seemed like something I am not sure the church would want us to do as far as evangelizing the Orthodox. Perhaps it is ifferent because we are in America and the complaint is about when we go into their countries and evangelize them?
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 11:36 am |
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brian wrote: I enjoyed the journey home program especially because I love learning more about Eastern and Western Christian issues.
I enjoyed it, too. You notice that as an Orthodox deacon he was not re-ordained but merely incardinated into the diocese. In other words, his orders were recognized and he was accepted into the diocese as a deacon without ordination.
Yo me is it not possible airing a TV show like this is against this sort of perspective since it was aimed somewhat at other Orthodox and reasons why perhaps Catholiccism is better.
As a matter of practice, we do not evangelize Orthodox. We accept them as members of sister Churches, just as the program referenced. However, the Journey Home is the relation of personal stories. The deacon related his own experiences, and why he felt the Catholic faith more fully expressed his own faith journey. No one evangelized him as an Orthodox deacon, although he began his journey as a member of a church known as "The Way". Orthodoxy was really an intermediate stop on his journey.
While we consider the Orthodox orders and sacraments valid, we also recognize that there is a schism between Catholic and Orthodox, and we consider the Catholic faith true. (The Orthodox, of course, feel differently.) The guest on the program healed that schism in his own life by joining the Catholic faith.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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nonsumdignus
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 07:21 pm |
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Brian,
We don't send missionaries to Orthodox countries with the purpose of converting them, or attempt to convert them in this country, but when a conversion takes place, we are overjoyed. Why?
QUOTE
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition.
END QUOTE
Irenaeus, who lived from c. A.D. 140 - c. 202, wrote this in his work Against Heresies between A.D. 180 and 199. St. John, the last living Apostle, died c. 100.
St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in A.D. 107, "Where the bishop is, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Jay
Last edited on Wed May 2nd, 2007 07:24 pm by nonsumdignus
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"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." Philip Melanchthon, Luther's cohort, Epistles, Book IV, Ep. 100
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BriarRose
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 07:00 pm |
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About Orthodox vs. Roman Catholic--I know two Orthodox guys, on a 'religious' message board elsewhere on the net, who were so dismayed when I said that I was converting to Roman Catholicism--while trying to persuade me to become Orthodox instead, they insisted that the schism occurred between the Orthodox, and the Roman Catholic Churchs, over something they called the 'Filioque'--
--with the Orthodox believing that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father, and with the Roman Catholic Church adhering to the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father, and the Son--which, they said, ended by splitting up the once-united Catholic Church--there was just no way that I, who had never even heard of that before then, could argue with either of them, one way or the other--
--however, I did tell them that I wanted to become Roman Catholic due to the fact that it's the Roman Catholic Church to which the Lord has been steadily leading me for such a long time now--so, because of that, I had to politely decline becoming an Orthodox believer--however, one of them, now, is referring to Roman Catholics as "Roman 'proddies'"--
--since I have known this poster for a few years now, though, I simply believe he loves the Orthodox Church, and wishes us all to become Orthodox--so, his comment only slightly surprised me--but, I've been wondering--is that how many members of the Orthodox Church view Roman Catholics--as though they[we] are simply a Roman version of Protestantism?
I do, also, know that both Orthodox men have voiced, to the Protestants, that the Orthodox do not honor the Lord's Mother[reads, in their opinions: the Orthodox don't go 'overboard'] with the same level of devotion as Roman Catholics--which seems to be a point of some pride with them both--and, it does help catch the attention of some Protestants, who are glad to hear about that--yet, I now believe that it's the level of devotion to the Blessed Mother that is the blessing from God, that has now completely cemented my determination to convert--
--I am so growing to love learning about Her very, very much, and it all is helping me understand Catholicism as something far more loving in nature, and far less 'cold and sterile', and the Catholic Church's heart seems to beat just that much stronger, because it does so honor her, in the many ways that it does--plus, it also seems to me, that she has chosen the Roman Catholic Church to come to, over the many years, bestowing her love upon it, and graced it with her favor, in such totally dramatic ways.
Yet--are the differences between the Orthodox beliefs, so vastly different than those of Roman Catholics--rather like--"So near, and yet so far away"? Or, is their opposing views, concerning the 'filioque', the one major thing that stands between both Churches?
____________________
The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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Juan
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 11:40 pm |
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The Papacy and the Filioque are the only two things I know of which stand in the way of reuniting the two Churches. The Filioque is easily proved by Scripture:
John 20
22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 3
11 I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.
John 15
26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
John 16
7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
And the Papacy is also attested by Scripture but more powerfully by the eastern Saints:
St. John Chrysostom on the Apostle Peter "...If the primacy of St. Peter is so unimportant a fact -- if it gave him no prerogatives, no duties, no successors -- why on earth is it so extraordinarily prominent in Holy Writ?" "I know no more emphatic testimony to the supreme jurisdiction of St. Peter in any writer, ancient or modern, than the view taken in this homily [of St. John Chrysostom] of the election of St. Matthias, for I know of no act of jurisdiction in the Church more tremendous than the appointment of an apostle." http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num52.htm
Sincerely,
Juan
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BriarRose
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 06:38 am |
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Thank you very, very much Juan for all of that information! And, I hadn't known about the Papacy being another 'problem', because I thought that the Orthodox had a Pope of their own--I read some things on the Apparitions of the Blessed Mother at Zeitun, Egypt, and thought their Pope was mentioned on the website--but, now, I'm remembering that they were called Coptics--but, aren't the Coptics also Orthodox?
Thank you, again, and God's blessing,
____________________
The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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JasPax
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 08:16 am |
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One difference is that Orthodox Churches are divided up along political/ethnic divisions. i.e. Greek, Russian, Ethiopian, etc.
Generally, Some, such as the Greek Orthodox have better relations with the Vatican than say, the Russian Orthodox.
As we approach the 1,000 year anniversary of the split, it would be a wonderful thing if our two valid branches of the historic church could be reconciled. Let's pray for that.
God's Blessings,
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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NanaR
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 01:10 pm |
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I hope I am not taking this thread off topic, but I wonder if some can explain if there are any differences in the treatment of moral issues by the Orthodox. For example, in the handling of previous marriages, or the use of artificial contraception.
I read something on another board that said the Orthodox Churches make artificial contraception a "conscience matter". And I have a friend who recently married in the Russian Orthodox Church after converting to the Church. She had been married twice before and alleged that she did not have to get her marriages annuled since she got married in a JP office and not a Church. Her husband who was married in an Episcopalean Church had to get an annulment.
She said that her baptism prior to her marriage "washed away" her previous marriages.
I wondered if perhaps she misunderstood?
Ruth
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 05:06 pm |
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BriarRose wrote: Yet--are the differences between the Orthodox beliefs, so vastly different than those of Roman Catholics--rather like--"So near, and yet so far away"? Or, is their opposing views, concerning the 'filioque', the one major thing that stands between both Churches?
(NOTE: My answer here is my opinion. I am not Orthodox, and a member of the Orthodox faith might have a quite different answer.)
The Catholic and Orthodox are very different structurally. There is little remaining difference in doctrine.
The "Filoque" deals with the Creed we recite at mass. The Orthodox recite that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father". To them, this indicates the unique creative role of the Father. As the Son is the only Redeemer, the Father is the only Creator, and that is the doctrinal statement of both Catholic and Orthodox. However, a challenge arose in the western Church over the divinity of Jesus. The phrase "and the Son" was added to the Creed in order to stress the divinity of Jesus. In Greek, the phrase "and the Son" is translated as "filoque". The Orthodox do not agree with this doctrinally; they object to the inclusion of the filoque into the Creed as to them, it is a challenge to the definition of the Father as the unique creator. Today in the Catholic Church, the creed is recited with the filoque in the Latin Rite, and without the filoque in the Eastern Rites, which admits the difference in purpose between the statement in the east and west. If the filoque were the only remaining doctrinal difference, I don't think we'd have any problem dropping it from the creed (but that's only my opinion) since the doctrinal challenge to the divinity of Christ was settled long ago.
As to the pope, the Orthodox consider the Bishop of Rome "first among equals" of the patriarchal churches. Since he is not part of the Orthodox Church, the second ranking prelate, the Bishop of Byzantium (Constantinople or Istanbul) is considered primary, and carries the title "Ecumenical Patriarch". The Orthodox do not believe the pope should have jurisdictional authority over the other Churches, but only over the Latin Rite. In other words, he should not appoint bishops, approve liturgies, etc.
Also, the Orthodox do not accept that the pope is infallible alone, but only when acting in concert with the other Churches. As a result, they reject all doctrine developed after the schism in 1054, such as papal infallibility. They recognize only councils held prior to that time as "ecumenical", meaning that they do not consider councils such as Trent, Vatican I, Vatican II, and the others, as true ecumenical councils.
The Orthodox Churches are much more intertwined politically with the national governments of their countries. There is no such thing as separation of Church and State in Orthodox countries. So, for example, if the Catholic Church wants to create a diocese or build a church in Russia, it must have the approval of the Russian Orthodox Patriarch. Russia has been a contentious issue because the Russians claim Catholics have been proselytizing Orthodox. This is particularly true in Ukraine, which is predominantly Catholic, but the Russian Orthodox claim jurisdiction. The Ukraine is an independent country but the people there are ethnically Russian.
There are other issues as well. The eastern understanding of Original Sin is different from the western understanding, and that leads to problems with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But other than that, there are no incompatibilities on Marian doctrines. In fact, if anything, Mary is held in higher esteem in the East than in the West. Where we bless ourselves with holy water, most Eastern churches have an icon of Mary which is kissed when entering the church. The primary title they use to honor Mary is Theotokos which means "God-bearer" or, in its western form, "Mother of God".
There is still much that separates us, but the doctrinal issues are falling quickly. Other than the role of the pope, most of the remaining questions are jurisdictional and political. From a practical standpoint, we are probably closer today than we were even before the split. The Catholic Church has even admitted the Orthodox into full communion (ability to receive the sacraments) although the Orthodox have not yet reciprocated except in emergency situations.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BriarRose
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 06:53 am |
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Thank you very much, Rick, for your answers on this--that helped alot, especially it helped to clear up my questions concerning the 'filoque', as well as those I had as to how the Orthodox feel towards the Blessed Mother--so, I guess I need to ask those two Orthodox fellows what is it, about how Catholics venerate the Lords' Mother, that they object to--maybe, I misunderstood--maybe, they must believe that they show more affection towards her--so, maybe, that's why they were so disparaging towards how Catholics honor her--but, if so, I think that idea is so ridiculous. But, that's all so interesting--thank you, again!
____________________
The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 11:48 am |
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BriarRose wrote: I guess I need to ask those two Orthodox fellows what is it, about how Catholics venerate the Lords' Mother, that they object to
I think you'll find that they've succumbed to the Protestant misconception that our veneration of Mary rises to the level of worship. This is fueled in paart by popular media misreporting of efforts to persuade Pope John Paul II to declare Mary "co-redeemer" and "co-mediatrix" in 2000. I remember a Time magazine article which essentially stated that this would make her the fourth member of the Trinity. Of course the reports were overstated, and our Holy Father rejected the requests out of hand, but no one seems to have noticed that.
Eastern Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) do not have statues in their churches, so when they see Latin Rite Catholics kneeling before a statue of Mary, it's easy for them to misunderstand. Most also do not pray the rosary as we do. There are misunderstandings (probably on both sides) of the practices of the sister Churches, but that does not rise to the highest level of the Church heirarchies, where true doctrine is known and understood.
Our traditions and practices are different, and it's easy to misunderstand that which is different. Many Orthodox fear a loss of their liturgy and tradition if they should rejoin the Catholic Church. There is some basis for their fears, as the Catholic Church has not historically supported the Eastern Rites, particularly in America. I believe our attitude has changed, and modern history supports that belief. We continue to reach out to them, and they are increasingly interested in reaching out as well. But there is still a long way to go, especially for the person in the pew.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BriarRose
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 06:51 pm |
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Oh, I see--thank you, Rick, very much--and, that helps to explain alot, and especially helps me to understand some of the comments they had made, concerning the Blessed Mother--I had not know that, about their not having statues in their Churchs, and how they felt about them--that's extremely good to know, so that I can now make much better sense out of many of the things they say about the Roman Catholic Church!
The odd things is, though--now that I think about it--they may not have statues, but they do seem to totally love those Icons--and, one of them had been trying to get me to learn more about how to 'discipher' their meanings--which was fun, I'll admit, but I never felt as drawn to them in the way they obviously are, so I don't believe they were appealing to me in the same way that seeing a statue of St. Joseph, or the Blessed Mother, does for me, when I attend Mass.
Also--the other day, one of the Orthodox men was trying to explain to a Protestant on the message board, elsewhere on the net, what was being portrayed in this one Icon, that depicted the Blessed Mother's death--and, he said that, in the Icon, the Lord was holding His Mother's soul in His hands, demonstrating that she was not only not 'divine', but that she did die a normal human death--and, that she was not taken, bodily, into heaven, as Catholics believe, and refer to as her Assumption--and, I can't quite remember all of the rest that he pointed out as being represented in the Icon--I just remember that I disagreed with the Orthodox belief about the Lord's Mother, as explained by him--but, don't they believe she is the Queen of Heaven? Because, I know that I certainly do!
Thanks, again, Rick!
____________________
The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 08:20 pm |
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BriarRose wrote: but they do seem to totally love those Icons
The Orthodox consider icons "windows into heaven". Only certain people are permitted to make them, and the process and meaning is controlled. As far as I know, only one icon is common in the western Church, and that is Our Lady of Perpetual Help.
...in the Icon, the Lord was holding His Mother's soul in His hands, demonstrating that she was not only not 'divine', but that she did die a normal human death--and, that she was not taken, bodily, into heaven, as Catholics believe, and refer to as her Assumption...
Eastern Christians do accept the Assumption of Mary, which in many cultures is called the "Dormition". The Feast on August 15th is accompanied by fasting, and next Sunday is known as the Sunday after the Assumption (or something similar). If anything, Marian feasts are given more priority in the East than in the West, except for the Immaculate Conception. Also, in the East, Marian apparitions are not celebrated in the same manner so there is no feast of Our Lady of Fatima, etc.
But Eastern Christians absolutely believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and that she was without the stain of sin through her entire life.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BriarRose
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 08:40 pm |
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| Thank you, Rick--would it make a difference in what is believed, by these two particular Orthodox men, if they are Russian Orthodox?--which is what they are--however, because I know even less about what the Orthodox believe, than I do about Roman Catholicism at this point, I probably just misunderstood things that he was saying, during his discussion of that Icon--he gave me the link to a website, on which were quite a few Icons, and he had been trying to explain their meanings to me, but that was a couple years ago--his explanation of the Icon of the Lord's Mother's death, though, took place recently, between himself and a Protestant poster on that message board--I probably just totally misundertood what he was saying, then, from the look of things--thanks, again, Rick.
____________________
The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 08:51 pm |
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BriarRose wrote: would it make a difference in what is believed, by these two particular Orthodox men, if they are Russian Orthodox?
Not directly, but I believe the history between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches in Russia tend to make them a little more anti-Catholic. Pope John Paul II truly wished to visit Russia but the Orthodox would not allow it. There is a possibility that Benedict and the Russian patriarch may meet at some point.
The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest of the communities within the Orthodox fold, a distinction that would be lost if they became Catholic, and that may be part of the problem as well.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BriarRose
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 01:47 pm |
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| Thanks, again, Rick--and, that information helps me understand a bit more about their attitudes, too.
____________________
The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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ASimpleSinner
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Posted: Wed Nov 7th, 2007 11:33 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: BriarRose wrote: but they do seem to totally love those Icons
The Orthodox consider icons "windows into heaven". Only certain people are permitted to make them, and the process and meaning is controlled. As far as I know, only one icon is common in the western Church, and that is Our Lady of Perpetual Help.
Our Lady of Czestochowa is rather common throughout the west. My French Canadian grandparents had a large reproduction of it in their home...
Attachment: Our Lady of Czestochowa.jpg (Downloaded 36 times)
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 05:19 pm |
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NanaR wrote: I hope I am not taking this thread off topic, but I wonder if some can explain if there are any differences in the treatment of moral issues by the Orthodox. For example, in the handling of previous marriages, or the use of artificial contraception.
I read something on another board that said the Orthodox Churches make artificial contraception a "conscience matter". And I have a friend who recently married in the Russian Orthodox Church after converting to the Church. She had been married twice before and alleged that she did not have to get her marriages annuled since she got married in a JP office and not a Church. Her husband who was married in an Episcopalean Church had to get an annulment.
She said that her baptism prior to her marriage "washed away" her previous marriages.
I wondered if perhaps she misunderstood?
Ruth
Hi Ruth,
Perhaps one or more of the following papers of mine (and one by a friend) on these general topics might be helpful to understand the different conceptions of Catholics and Orthodox on these matters:
Does Orthodoxy Allow Contraception Or Not?
Contraception: Early Church Teaching (William Klimon)
Dialogue: Annulment vs. Divorce
Divorce: Early Church Teaching
Biblical Evidence for Annulments
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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NanaR
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| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 166 |
| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 08:11 pm |
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Dave:
Thank you very much for the links!!
It is certainly frustrating to try to "pin down" what the Orthodox Church believes and teaches. There seems to be a wide range both in teaching and in practice.
This is not what I would expect to find in the "one holy catholic and apostolic church".
Although it is certainly true that Catholics, as individuals, may differ considerably from clearly stated Catholic doctrine, at least the stand of the Church IS very clear. I have seen in my own grown daughters the bitter results of a cavalier separation of life-making from love-making. Viewing children as "optional" is contributing to the breakdown of American society today, IMHO.
Thanks!
Ruth
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When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1627 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 08:20 pm |
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My pleasure, Ruth.
I have a book about Orthodoxy, too, if anyone is interested:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/07/books-by-dave-armstrong-orthodoxy-and.html
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Cindy
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Cindy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic convert |
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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 09:28 pm |
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NanaR wrote:
I have seen in my own grown daughters the bitter results of a cavalier separation of life-making from love-making. Viewing children as "optional" is contributing to the breakdown of American society today, IMHO.
Ruth,
Just wanted to mention a book that you might enjoy: Christopher West's "Good News About Sex and Marriage." It's great!
Good News About Sex And Marriage: Answers To Your Honest Questions About Catholic Teaching
God bless,
Cindy
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The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him in Truth -- Psalm 145:18
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