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Angie_Rivas1
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| First Name: | Angie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Feb 25th, 2007 04:14 pm |
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After much thought and reflection on my first post about God's plan, I realized that there was a burning question I did not post and it was my main intention for writing on this forum, but I went into complaining (which I hope I am done doing) My first post was meant to have this question: suppose one deviates from God's original plan for his/her life for X reason, can the same plan be fulfilled later on in life if one accepts the grace and comes back to the Lord? I understand that perhaps now there are consequences due to the wrong decisions that were made. I know Jeremiah 29:11 speaks of God's plans for all of us. Is it possible for its complete realization, even though one interfered in His plan?
Angie
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"Be not afraid" JPII
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Feb 25th, 2007 04:42 pm |
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Angie_Rivas1 wrote: Is it possible for its complete realization, even though one interfered in His plan?
All things are possible with God.
Think of our journey to salvation as a road. It's possible to make a wrong turn and get sidetracked, perhaps travelling several miles out of the way. When we realize we are lost, we can find our way back, but we may be a great distance from where we should be.
Our first step is to find out where we are. We may have to stop and look at a road map (Scripture, the Catechism) or ask for directions that only a good priest can provide. He will help us find the best way to get back on path. It may not be the shortest route, and in fact it may be a really bumpy journey, but with the proper guidance through prayer, sacrifice and fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church, combined with a good dose of Scripture and the Sacraments, we can indeed find our way back to the right road headed for the right destination (salvation).
Of course, it's also possible to find the destination through an alternate route, but if we can get back on the path God intends for us, the road will be much smoother.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Feb 25th, 2007 05:51 pm |
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Yes, Angie, often there is a way back to your first calling. It may involve a few modifications due to your side excursions, but if the vocation is still there, God is indeed calling you to try again. The prophet Jonah is a good example of how this works. If your vocation requires you to be free from the marriage bond, you should seek an annulment.
David
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 12:53 am |
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If God already knows how we will respond (from my prior post on groeschel's spiritual passages) then, how exactly can one deviate from His plan? Does He not take our decisions into account from the beginning? If we make a decision, He still can control the outcome. Hence, an act can be sinful and require confession yet you need not be sorry for the outcome as that was up to God, not us (this is how a particular situaution was explained to me)
If we turn away and make a decision where the consequences lead us down another path and then later turn back to Him, how do we know which path is the one He intended?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 01:13 am |
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Luke12:48 wrote:An act can be sinful and require confession yet you need not be sorry for the outcome as that was up to God, not us.
The inevitable consequence of sin is suffering. So if I cause someone to suffer because of my sin, are you (or is your informant) saying that I need not be sorry for this? Somehow that doesn’t seem right.
With regard to your question about God’s prior knowledge of our deviation from his will or plan: Knowledge, even God’s knowledge, does not cause my deviation to conform to the divine will, as if God were willing or causing me to sin.
I know the sun will rise tomorrow, but I do not, by my knowledge, cause it to rise. I know that two plus two equal four, but my knowledge of that fact does not cause it to be true. Likewise, God can know things without causing them to be. If this were not so, then we could not speak of secondary causes.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 01:29 am |
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Luke12:48 wrote: If God already knows how we will respond (from my prior post on groeschel's spiritual passages) then, how exactly can one deviate from His plan? Does He not take our decisions into account from the beginning? If we make a decision, He still can control the outcome. Hence, an act can be sinful and require confession yet you need not be sorry for the outcome as that was up to God, not us (this is how a particular situaution was explained to me)
Have you ever seen a child do something you absolutely knew they would do, but it was still their choice to do it? When your baby takes his first steps, you know he will fall, you know he will bang his head, and you know he will cry, but you must let him do it anyway. Does the fact that you know what will happen limit his choice in any way?
God knows what we will do by benefit of hindsight. Like a parent watching his child take those first few steps, God knows we will stumble and fall, but God also knows we must be allowed to fall so that we can have the opportunity to pick ourselves up and try again. This is the only way we learn.
God's plan for us is perfect. It will bring us true happiness. None of us follows the path perfectly. Some come close. Look at the joy on the face of Blessed Teresa of Calcutta while she served the poor, or Pope John Paul II at World Youth Day, and you will see the face of someone who has perfectly (or near perfectly) accepted God's plan. There are few examples of walking saints on Earth.
The rest of us take faltering steps, make wrong turns, and trip and fall constantly. God knows this. Few of us have true happiness as reflected in the fase of Blessed Teresa. Most of us spend more of our time on our backsides than we do joyfully following Christ.
We don't take the time to listen to God's plan for us. We stand and say, "This is what you want me to do, isn't it, God?" while doing what we want or what is easy or comfortable, instead of listening to God's plan and then saying, "Here I am, Lord. Send me."
So we're all trying our entire lives to get back on track. That's OK, because God knows the spirit is wiling but the flesh is weak. God does not expect us to be perfect. God expects us to strive to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.
Can God control our decisions? Can God control the outcome? Certainly. But God chooses not to, because if God predestined us, we would no longer have free will. Instead, we are free to fail.
No matter how many times we fail, no matter how we squander our inheritance, trusting God means we will always have the certain knowledge that our Father is waiting with open arms for the Prodigal Child to return.
And some day, God will put a ring on our finger and a cloak over our shoulders, kill the fatted calf and bring us to the heavenlty banquet, because the child who was dead is alive in the heavenly Kingdom of God. And God will announce to the heavens, "This is my beloved child in whom I am well pleased. Well done, my good and faithful servant."
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 01:33 am |
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I knew I would get in trouble with my vague statement. The "informant" was a priest and was referring to a specific circumstance. So as not to divulge matter from the confessional, I will try to propose an alternative example. What if a person chooses a medical procedure contrary to church teaching? The outcome may be what was desired (and therefore could reduce suffering) but the act was still sinful. The individual may or may not suffer in other ways. I am thinking in particular of the types of things covered in a Health Care Law/Ethics class -- what about something like Euthanasia. Are you saying that when discussing sinfulness, the act and outcome cannot be considered separately?
Regarding God's knowledge, I was questioning how we are to know which path is really God's original plan for us?
First option--we conform to his will from day one at point A and end up at point B
Second option--we start at point A and then deviate from His will and end up at point C. He knew all along that we would choose to deviate and C was really what was planned for us but maybe we had to "learn the hard way" Possible??
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 02:24 am |
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Are you saying that when discussing sinfulness, the act and outcome cannot be considered separately?
What you are considering is a question of double effect. The sinful act will always cause suffering, because this is the nature of sin. But it sometimes also produces pleasure, alleviation or some other good as well for someone, as a byproduct.
Moral theology posits two approaches. If an act is intrinsically sinful (you give the example of euthanasia, which is apropos), suffering always results from it. In the case of euthanasia, someone dies. But there may also be a benefit or good that comes from it. For instance, some may refer to the end of suffering, say, from the pain and misery of cancer, as a benefit of the killing. But since the act is intrinsically evil, the sin is what is intended and the benefit is a byproduct.
Conversely, sometimes we see the opposite approach with a double effect. For instance, an ectopic pregnancy is very dangerous and usually fatal to both mother and child. Terminating it to save the life of the mother inevitably kills the child, but the child was going to die anyway. Here, what is intended is to save a life, not to take one. So the operation is not considered sinful.
Regarding God willing the lesser good, I think he often settles for it, aware as he is of our imperfections. However, this would not stop him from willing the higher good. Our lack of attainment can then be seen in its true light.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 02:33 am |
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Luke12:48 wrote: Are you saying that when discussing sinfulness, the act and outcome cannot be considered separately?
The Church says an evil act can never be done even if the intended outcome is good. For example, it is not permitted to kill a serial killer without the benefit of trial.
If a serial killer is in the process of killing someone and the only way to stop him is by killing him, that's acceptable. If the serial killer is not in the process of killing, it is not permitted to use deadly force when it would be possible to capture him and put him on trial.
The Church tells us it is permitted to provide palliative care even if the unintended result is to shorten life; it is not permitted to do exactly the same thing with the intention of ending life.
The act and the outcome can be considered separately, but the intended outcome must always be considered.
I'm not sure how that fits with the original question in this thread, or with the question you asked.
Second option--we start at point A and then deviate from His will and end up at point C. He knew all along that we would choose to deviate and C was really what was planned for us but maybe we had to "learn the hard way" Possible??
I don't think so. That would mean that God expects us to sin, and that our sin will lead us to do God's will almost by accident. In my opinion, God's way brings ecstatic joy at every moment. If it is God's will for us, even our suffering will bring us closer to God. One of the reasons a cause for canonization has been opened for Charlene Richard (the 12-year old "Little Cajun Saint" I've written about before) is that even in her suffering and intense pain, she expressed joy in God's love and offered her suffering for the sins of others.
I had a copy of "Lay Witness" magazine on my desk one day that had Mother Teresa's picture on the cover, and she was laughing. Someone walked by my desk and saw the picture (not Catholic, had no idea who she was), stopped and picked it up, and said, "That's the most beautiful face I've ever seen." It was the face of someone who was nearly perfect at following God's will.
God's will for us is to always follow the "straight and narrow". The fact that God knows we will fail doesn't alter that reality. We all hope our children will be perfectly happy, in perfect health, without having to struggle too hard. We know it won't happen, but it's still what we want. We want to prevent their broken hearts, eliminate their fears, keep away the tears, and never see them sad. We know it won't happen, but it's what we want.
God wants the same for us, even though God knows it won't happen. God's plan for us allows failure, but does not predestine failure.
God wants us to start at A and end at Z, even if we have to get there through B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, and the rest of the alphabet too, and hit several of those letters more than once, and maybe even hit several numbers and a few Greek symbols along the way. All God really expects of us is to keep trying to reach Z, no matter how many letters stand in our way.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 11:42 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
God's plan for us is perfect. It will bring us true happiness. None of us follows the path perfectly. Some come close. Look at the joy on the face of Blessed Teresa of Calcutta while she served the poor, or Pope John Paul II at World Youth Day, and you will see the face of someone who has perfectly (or near perfectly) accepted God's plan. There are few examples of walking saints on Earth.
The rest of us take faltering steps, make wrong turns, and trip and fall constantly. God knows this. Few of us have true happiness as reflected in the fase of Blessed Teresa. Most of us spend more of our time on our backsides than we do joyfully following Christ.
We don't take the time to listen to God's plan for us. We stand and say, "This is what you want me to do, isn't it, God?" while doing what we want or what is easy or comfortable, instead of listening to God's plan and then saying, "Here I am, Lord. Send me."
So we're all trying our entire lives to get back on track. That's OK, because God knows the spirit is wiling but the flesh is weak. God does not expect us to be perfect. God expects us to strive to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.
I think we are talking about two different things. I agree with all you have said above about listening to God's paln and following at any given moment but I (and I think Angie as well) was looking at it in a more linear fashion--some decisions will close doors to us. Is it possible to get back--maybe not. For example, let's say God intended for you to be a priest and you didn't listen and then married and had a family. You later decided the marriage was a mistake and you are now on a different path. Even though you realize your mistake, you cannot erase the family and head off to the seminary. How do you know what path God really intended for you marriage or the seminary? Can you follow his will from that moment forward--yes but you will most likely not make it back to "the original path" you were on.
Am I making sense?
Last edited on Mon Feb 26th, 2007 11:44 pm by Luke12:48
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Feb 27th, 2007 12:11 am |
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Kate, what you are saying looks like what I said several rounds ago: “It [the return] may involve a few modifications due to your side excursions, but if the vocation is still there, God is indeed calling you to try again.”
Yes, there is a good possibility that some doors have closed, and you will have to modify the original inspiration to align with present realities. But this does not mean that God has stopped calling you. He may even alter his own call: “Well now, since you’ve gone off and done such-and-such, making it impossible for you to folllow my original call, may I suggest this alternative?” Often, when God closes a door, he also opens a window. So you need not despair of answering his call; he will show the way.
I think we’re all just saying the same thing in different words.
David
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