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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Oct 14th, 2006 11:04 am |
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The following message was posted by Brian in a different thread. I have moved it here to foster a more appropriate discussion.
This brings up a question i meant to ask about. I tend to be a tad over emotional at times and reflect my view of God or how He sees me based on the highs and lows of my day. Of course i know this is wrong and i try to "reason" through it. I recognize that God being the unmoved mover is the same yesterday today and forever. If He was loving merciful and gracious yesterday it is because He eternally is and ever will be. He can no more love me more or less from day to day.
However, I do think we can merit more graces one day to the next, that some days we step closer to God and others we do not. He does not move, but rather we do. And our faithfulness is of crucial importance. I am struggling to ask what i want to ask. But my question is along th elines of, how does one have a relationship with God if God is not dynamic as we are. How and when did God act and interact with us. When has He made His decisions? Seems as Jesus literally entered time and interacted with us. Now what is happening from God's perspective? If God is the same how am i interacting with Him. Am, i just discovering the interactions He has eternally decided to make available to me? Or is my relationship with Him a matter of me leaving time and entering eternity with him for bits and pieces of time until my life here passes? I am habving a hard time figuring out what i am saying.
Is a relationship with god something that appears to us one way (like prayer) even though in reality it looks differently? I guess my point is that from our perspective we talk about our relationships with God in certain terms. We say that god revealed this, or He laughed at me because of this, or He rejoices in this, or He gets angry with this, or He convicted me of this.
Adam walked with God, and Jacob seemed to wrestle with Him or something. Mary obeyed Him. When are these actions really happening. CAn God experience emotion if He is the unmoved mover, yet if not, what exactly to make of all his emotions such as jealousy rejoicing anger compassion and the like. Jesus definitely came and showed us these things in time. How is God eternally the same yet interacting with us and more or less pleased or displeased according to our faithfulness? When did God experience all of these emotions/reactions? What interaction will there be in heaven?
maybe there are no good answers to these questions, and maybe i do not need to know seeing as how my ignorance creates awe and worship at this point because afterall He is God, and what am I really but a simple creature. Anyway, I look forward to hearing more on this matter.
Brian
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2276 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Oct 14th, 2006 09:35 pm |
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How does one have a relationship with God if God is not dynamic as we are?
Your question assumes that God is not dynamic. This in turn assumes that eternity, where God is, is like “frozen” time. When I was young, I imagined eternity to be like this, and it led logically to some pretty weird conclusions, so I had to abandon it. Eternity is not a “moment” or “snapshot” of time, but the total absence of time. It is, as it were, non-time.
The problem here is that we creatures have no experience of eternity. We are “trapped in time” for as long as we live. After death we will experience eternity, but there is no guarantee even then that we will understand it.
The “eternal now” is not static. And neither is God. Recall from St. Thomas Aquinas that God is “pure act” (Summa Theologica I q3 a2; cf. I q2 a3, where among other things he defines God as the “unnmoved mover,” as you attest). He explains in I q10 a1 that God is immutable precisely because he is pure act, with no admixture of potentiality. As he points out, “everything which is in any way changed, is in some way in potentiality. Hence it is evident that it is impossible for God to be in any way changeable.”
So we have a paradox: God, living in eternity, is absolutely immutable. Yet he is immutable precisely because he is pure act. But any act, in time, is dynamic rather than static. Therefore we experience an apparent contradiction: for us in time, God changes even though he is unchangeable. This happens just because God is God and we are his creatures.
I told you earlier that this is a mystery. Because it is a mystery, you are not going to comprehend it, even in heaven. You will, I said, see that it is true, but you will no more understand how or why it is true than you will understand the being of God by seeing him face to face.
Pray, hope and don’t worry.
David
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 438 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Wed Oct 25th, 2006 08:01 pm |
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I struggle with this, too(what is my relationship with God), but more from the point of view of, is my relationship worthy, if I am not having the "relationship" I feel is the result of love for God. I mean, I don't have joy, I don't have faith - and yet faith is the only thing keeping me going. I don't trust, yet know He is God and is doing His Will with me - which must result in something good at some point, because I love Him. I don't give huge, gratitude, jump up and down with happiness, thanks to God, like I used to, yet am immeasurably grateful for things like noticing a co-worker is pregnant before she actually tells me to my face and destroys my world, so I am not caught off guard. I barely pray, because I don't know how to anymore. I mean we're supposed to ask with confidence, yet, knowing that His will is not our will, and His time is not our time, etc. Yet, I speak to Him throughout each day and offer all that I am (which doesn't seem like much at the moment) to Him.
Anyway, I know I am way off track from the original question, but I think that, because Brian mentioned his own daily feelings and situations coloring his view, maybe it's ok to throw in my own doubts, too.
I wonder if saying that God being the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow has more to do with who He is than what He does. For instance, He is always the loving Father, but Fathers get saddened by a misbehaving child. So He is the same (loving) while acting in a difference (saddened). And when He shows wrath, it is because He is eternally merciful - the same, yet doing - acting different
I had comany and added to this after the company left.
Laura
Last edited on Wed Oct 25th, 2006 08:47 pm by Truthseeker
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 341 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Wed Nov 15th, 2006 01:50 pm |
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This all brings up questions for me too. If the purpose of prayer is to change me but not change God's actions, what is the purpose of that gospel story of the persistant widow? For example I would like another child. My husband and I are doing what is within our power to bring that about but so far no pregnancy. So if I pray for a child what am I accomplishing? It is not changing my mind about the issue. Does that mean I shouldn't be doing it? There is certainly several Old and New Testament cases of people praying persistantly for a child.
I feel like Brian, I know what bothers me about this but am having trouble putting it into words. If our relationship with God is like a family, then how can the only purpose of our prayer be to make us line up our will with his? I want my children to obey me but it doesn't mean every communication is about conforming them to my will. I would want to interact for many other reasons and sometimes they do change my decisions through that communication. Am I misunderstanding what was said before?
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 17th, 2006 02:43 am |
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If the purpose of prayer is to change me but not change God's actions, what is the purpose of that gospel story of the persistant widow?
I believe you are making the same mistake that I outlined above: that of conceiving God’s eternal act as “static” instead of “dynamic,” through a limited view of his immensity. From all eternity, God has asked you to pray steadfastly for what you need. He is happy to supply your needs provided you ask for them. In fact, he sometimes supplies them even without your prayers, but prefers that you approach him, for the divine relationship is everything to us humans, whether we realize it or not. He wants us to be truly happy. In other words, God’s will is unchanging when viewed as comprehensive and all-encompassing. It is not unchanging only in the sense of particular objects. The persistent widow is not going to “change God’s mind.” She will, however, demonstrate her need, and God has eternally made allowance for her satisfaction because of her steadfastness.
David
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