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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 375 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 05:55 pm |
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Where do Jews fit in to this? As the chosen people, faithful to God, but not Christians, does their sufferings have any redemptive value? My 10 year ol wants to know.
Thanks, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 08:47 pm |
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Yes. All suffering is redemptive if it is for God's sake. Essentially, that is why sin is punished.
Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, denied himself to be the son of Pharao's daughter; 25 Rather choosing to be afflicted with the people of God, than to have the pleasure of sin for a time, 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasure of the Egyptians. For he looked unto the reward.
Apocalypse 3
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Job 23
10 But he knoweth my way, and has tried me as gold that passeth through the fire:
2 Kings 13-14
13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.
14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.
Sincerely,
Juan
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 08:56 pm |
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There are some hints of the idea of redemptive suffering in the post-exilic books of the Old Testament, such as in Elihu’s words in the book of Job or some of the pious sentiments expressed in Tobit. However, the full flowering of the Christian doctrine was unknown to them. Present-day Jews look to their own canonical scriptures, which do not include most of the post-exilic books, so they tend to leave the question of suffering unresolved.
I think it is clear from the Catholic doctrines of redemption and salvation that everyone’s sufferings can be redemptive if they are accepted as such, because salvation itself is offered to all. But it appears very few people, regardless of their religion or lack of it, consider this and make use of it, and so most receive no benefit.
David
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Juan
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| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 02:50 pm |
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I think it is clear from the Catholic doctrines of redemption and salvation that everyone’s sufferings can be redemptive if they are accepted as such, because salvation itself is offered to all. But it appears very few people, regardless of their religion or lack of it, consider this and make use of it, and so most receive no benefit.
I think the Jews did understand the redemptive value of suffering:
2 Machabees 7
31 But thou that hast been the author of all mischief against the Hebrews, shalt not escape the hand of God. 32 For we suffer thus for our sins. 33 And though the Lord our God is angry with us a little while for our chastisement and correction: yet he will be reconciled again to his servants. ....37 But I, like my brethren, offer up my life and my body for the laws of our fathers: calling upon God to be speedily merciful to our nation, and that thou by torments and stripes mayst confess that he alone is God.
Since "redemption" is God driven and not man driven, all suffering which leads to conversion is redemptive. Whether the person enduring the suffering realizes the benefit or not.
Jeremias 30:4 And these are the words that the Lord hath spoken to Israel and to Juda: 5 For thus saith the Lord: We have heard a voice of terror: there is fear and no peace. Ask ye, and see if a man bear children? why then have I seen every man with his hands on his loins, like a woman in labour, and all faces are turned yellow? 67 Alas, for that day is great, neither is there the like to it; and it Is the time of tribulation to Jacob, but he shall be saved out of it.
Exodus 19
6 And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation. Those are the words thou shalt speak to the children of Israel.
Although, if a person recognizes the redemptive value of suffering and unites it with the Passion of Christ, it gains immeasurably more value, yet the suffering of all righteous people is of redemptive value whether they "accept it as such" or not. It is God who accepts or rejects the redemptive value of suffering.
Job 23
10 But he knoweth my way, and has tried me as gold that passeth through the fire:
Proverbs 17
3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.
As an example, I provide the Old Testament prophets. Isaiah's proverb (53:5) about the suffering Servant, "by his stripes we are healed" is not just a prophecy of the Messiah, but a description of all the Prophets of God.
They suffered these indignities, pain and even death for our redemption:
James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth: patiently bearing till he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be you therefore also patient, and strengthen your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Grudge not, brethren, one against another, that you may not be judged. Behold the judge standeth before the door. 10 Take, my brethren, for an example of suffering evil, of labour and patience, the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord.
Did these prophets know they were suffering for redemption? Well, perhaps, because they were in communion with God, perhaps they did. But I tend to believe that some of them didn't:
Jonas 4:1 And Jonas was exceedingly troubled, and was angry: 2 And he prayed to the Lord, and said: I beseech thee, O Lord, is not this what I said, when I was yet in my own country? therefore I went before to flee into Tharsis: for I know that thou art a gracious and merciful God, patient, and of much compassion, and easy to forgive evil. 3 And now, O Lord, I beseech thee take my life from me: for it is better for me to die than to live. 4 And the Lord said: Dost thou think thou hast reason to be angry?
Sincerely,
Juan
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