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SBC2RCC
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | York, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 132 |
| First Name: | Monte | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | was Southern Baptist Minister, now Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 11:45 pm |
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There are a number of folks at my parish who identify themselves as "charismatic." Even myself, and very close friends.
But in their fervor, at times I think there is a sense projected that charismatics have a closer walk with God than those who have not recieved the blessing of such gifts as tongues. I have seen it be devisive before in other denominations.
Particularly, I see the things of the Holy SPirit as being welcomed and included in Catholic doctrine. It does not seem to be needed as a second blessing. In the sacrament of confirmation we recieve the Holy SPirit.
I say that there are plenty of devout Catholics who have all of the gifts of the Spirit, whether they call themselves charismatic or not.
Also, the focus is always to be on God in Christ, and the whole truth of the doctrine taught by the Church. Healing in particular can become a side track. Jesus responded to those who followed him, saying that they followed because of the miracles, becasue he fed the crowds. He then challenged them to recieve Him in the Eucharist. Not, come up here and get you leg straightened, get over diabetes, etc. These things God will do, but first of all, He wants our relationship to Him to be primary. Do you agree?
Please pray for unity to remain.
Monte
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In Christ,
Monte W
(Formerly on CHN Forum as "Pilgrim Paul"
Minima Maxima Sunt
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 02:50 am |
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Monte, the very idea of a merely outward “charismaticism” is repugnant to God. It is simply a form of Phariseeism. You allude to Jesus’ words to the crowd in John 6:26–27: “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal.”
In many people, the spiritual vanity and curiosity involved in their desire to know “where they stand” spiritually, shows how little profit they have gained from the very real graces the Holy Spirit has provided them. Overt choices favoring speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, seeking after healing and prophecy — all these cater to vanity and do not encourage genuine virtue. Even if these people are trying to do what is right, they are sounding the trumpet before giving alms (cf. Matthew 6:2), and that is wrong. St. John of the Cross, one of the Church’s greatest mystics, speaks vehemently against these errors in his Ascent of Mount Carmel.
Yet as you say, this is not to condemn the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. It is not to say that charisms or miracles are evil or useless. The point is rather that one must begin with virtues such as humility and obedience rather than overplaying the “signs” that only feed the lower nature, as Christ’s remark above makes clear. For it is he who humbles himself, believing truly that he is nothing, who will be called up higher (cf. Luke 14:7–11). It is he who truly does not aspire to gifts and miracles for himself, but rejoices to see others advance and win approval from God, who will be held in esteem by God. For this is the man who truly loves his neighbor and fulfills the divine law (cf. Romans 13:8–10), drawing near to God.
The point, then, is the same as that expressed by St. Paul in Galatians 5:13–14: “For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” This is the one thing that matters. In this, Monte, I think you and I are completely agreed.
David
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SBC2RCC
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | York, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 132 |
| First Name: | Monte | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | was Southern Baptist Minister, now Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Jul 5th, 2008 02:41 pm |
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Thanks for the reply David,
This is what I was looking for when I posted this item. My heart is most caught at depth with this sort of thing you wrote about. When experiencing more "spectacluar" or emotional things, I welcome them. YET, I also remember saints, (St. Therese ?) who said to seek the simple devotion and continue faithfully in it. They said it much better than I can right now.
Thanks again, and may God bless your willingness to help folks on their journey of faith.
Monte
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In Christ,
Monte W
(Formerly on CHN Forum as "Pilgrim Paul"
Minima Maxima Sunt
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 06:35 pm |
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I concur with David's excellent and balanced words.
What you (Monte) wrote in your post is a good survey of some of the abuses or excesses of charismatics (who are sinners like all other Catholics). I hasten to add, however, that the movement as a whole has been encouraged by recent popes and by bishops, generally speaking.
I've defended the charismatic renewal and compiled another post of Church statements:
Catholic Debate on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (Dave Armstrong vs. Mike Breslin)
Recent Popes' and Bishops' Statements Concerning the Catholic Charismatic Renewal
Pope Benedict XVI, when Cardinal Ratzinger, made the following observations:
There is in the "Renewal" a new and concrete awareness of the powers of evil, in addition, of course, to the calm certainty of the power of Christ who subjugates them all.
It is essential, above all, to maintain a balance, to beware of an exclusive emphasis on the Spirit, who, as Jesus himself reminds us, "does not speak of himself" but lives and works at the heart of the life of the Trinity. [A wrong overemphasis] could lead to setting against the hierarchically structured Church (which is based on Christ) a "charismatic" Church based only on the "freedom of the Spirit", a Church that regards herself as continually a new "happening".
Maintaining balance also means keeping the proper relationship between institution and charism, between the Church's common faith and personal experience. Without personal experience doctrinal belief remains empty; pure experience is blind unless it is linked to the faith of the Church. What counts, ultimately, is not the "we" of the group, but the great "we" of the universal Church. She alone can provide the proper context in which we can "not extinguish the Spirit and keep to what is good," as the apostle exhorts us.
We must beware of a too-easy ecumenism which can lead Catholic charismatic groups to lose their identity and, in the name of the "Spirit" (seen as the antithesis of the institution), uncritically associate with forms of Pentecostalism of non-Catholic origin. [Catholic renewal groups must therefore] think with the Church - sentire cum ecclesia - more than ever. They must always act in unity with the bishop, not least so that they will avoid the consequences that always arise when Holy Scripture is taken out of its context in the fellowship of the Church, which results in fundamentalism and the marks of the esoteric group and the sect.
Messori interjects:
Having given this warning about the risks involved, does the Cardinal also see positive signs in the emergence of the Charismatic Renewal Movement into the limelight of the Church's life?
Certainly. It is evidence of hope, a positive sign of the times, a gift of God to our age. It is a rediscovery of the joy and wealth of prayer over against theories and practices which had become increasingly ossified and shriveled as a result of secularized rationalism. I myself have observed the effectiveness of the Movement: in Munich I saw a number of good vocations to the priesthood come from it. As I have already said, like every other reality entrusted to human beings, it too is exposed to misunderstandings, misinterpretations and exaggeration. But it would be dangerous to see only the risks and not also the gift offered by God. The necessary caution does not alter my fundamentally positive judgment.
(The Ratzinger Report, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1985, 151-153)
Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 06:37 pm by Dave Armstrong
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
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| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 09:04 pm |
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No, what we teach and have always been taught, is that if you take this plunge into the Holy Spirit - it is not because you are better than anyone else, but because you need it more than anyone else. It is a very humbling thing!
From the preacher to the Papal Household
CONCERNING THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap It is important to understand what the Renewal in the Spirit is all about. After the Second Vatican Council, many things in the Church’s life were renewed--the liturgy, pastoral care, canon law, the constitutions and dress of religious orders. Although all these things are important, they are only external things. Woe to us if we stop there and think the task is finished. It is not structure but souls that are important to God. “It is in men’s souls that the Church is beautiful,” writes St. Ambrose...and therefore it is in men’s souls that she must make herself beautiful.
God is Author and Power
The Renewal is a renewal in which God, not man, is the principal author “I, not you,” says God, “make all things new”(Rev. 21:5). “My Spirit--and He alone--may renew the face of the earth” (see Ps. 104:30). From the religious point of view, we tend to view things from a ptolemaic perspective: at the foundation are our efforts--organization, efficiency, reforms, and goodwill. These have the earth here as the center which God comes to strengthen and crown by His grace and our effort.
We must--at this point as the Word of God cries out--”give the power back to God” (Ps. 68:35) because “the power belongs to God” (Ps. 62:12). For too long we have usurped this power of His by managing it as if it were ours, as if it was up to us to “govern” the power of God. We have to totally change our perspective. That is, we have to acknowledge simply that without the Holy Spirit, we cannot do anything, not even say, “Jesus is Lord!” (1Cor. 12:3).
The Baptism in the Spirit is not a sacrament, but it is related to the sacraments of Christian initiation. The Baptism in the Spirit makes real and in a way renews Christian initiation. The primary relationship is with the sacrament of Baptism.
We believe that the Baptism in the Spirit makes real and revitalizes our Baptism. To understand how a sacrament which was received so many years ago, usually immediately after our birth, could suddenly come back to life and emanate so much energy, as often happens through the Baptism in the Spirit, it is important to look at our understanding of sacramental theology.
Catholic theology recognizes the concept of a valid but bound sacrament. A sacrament is called bound if the fruit that should accompany it remains bound because of certain blocks that prevent its effectiveness. Extreme examples of this are the sacrament of Matrimony and Holy Orders received in the state of mortal sin. In such circumstances these sacraments cannot grant any grace to people until the obstacle of sin is removed through Penance. Once this happens, the sacrament is said to live again, thanks to the indelible character and irrevocability of the gift of God. God remains faithful even if we are unfaithful because He cannot deny Himself (see Tim. 2:1-3).
In the case of Baptism, what is it that causes the fruit of the sacrament to stay bound? The sacraments are not magical rituals that act mechanically, without the person’s knowledge, disregarding any response on his part. Their effectiveness is the fruit of a synergy or cooperation between divine omnipotence--in reality the grace of Christ or the Holy Spirit--, and human freedom. As St. Augustine said, “The one who created you without your cooperation will not save without your cooperation.”
The opus operatum of Baptism, namely God’s part, or grace, has several aspects: forgiveness of sins, the gifts of the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity (these, however, only as a seed), and divine sonship. All of these aspects operate through the effective action of the Holy Spirit. But what does the opus operantis in Baptism--namely, man’s part--consist of? It consists of faith! “Whosoever believes and is baptized shall be saved”(Mark 16:16). Along with Baptism therefore, there is another element: the faith of man. “To all who received Him He gave the power to become children of God: to those who believe in His name” (John 1:13).
Baptism is like a divine seal put on the faith of man. Having heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and having believed in it, you have received (of course, in Baptism) the seal of the Holy Spirit (see Eph. 1:13).
Baptism and Confirmation of Faith
At the beginning of the Church, Baptism was such a powerful event and so rich in grace that there was normally not a need of a new effusion of the Spirit like we have today. Baptism was ministered to adults who converted from paganism, and who, properly instructed, were in the position to make on the occasion of Baptism, an act of faith, and a free, mature choice. It is sufficient to read the mystagogic catechesis on Baptism attributed to Cyril of Jerusalem to become aware of the depth of faith to which those waiting for Baptism were led. In substance, they arrived at Baptism through a true and real conversion, and thus, for them Baptism was a real washing, a personal renewal, and a re-birth in the Holy Spirit.
The favorable circumstances that allowed Baptism at the origins of the Church to operate with so much power was that the grace of God and man’s response met at the same time. There was a perfect synchronization....
God’s Will
Here, then, is what I feel to be the significance of the Baptism in the Spirit. It is God’s answer to this malfunctioning that has grown up in the Christian life in the sacrament of Baptism.
It is an accepted fact that over the last few years there has been some concern on the part of the Church, among the bishops, that the Christian sacraments, especially Baptism, are being administered to people who will not make any use of them in life. As a result, it has even been suggested that Baptism should not be administered unless there are some minimum guarantees that it will be cultivated and valued by the child in question. For one should not throw pearls to dogs, as Jesus said, and Baptism is a pearl because it is the fruit of the Blood of Christ.
But it seems that God was concerned about this situation even before the Church was, and He raised up here and there in the Church, movements aimed at renewing Christian initiation in adults. The Charismatic Renewal is one of these movements, and in it the principal grace is, without doubt, linked to Baptism of the Spirit and what comes before it.
Release and Confirmation of Faith
Its effectiveness in reactivating Baptism consists in this: Finally man contributed his part--namely, he makes a choice of faith, prepared in repentance, that allows the work of God to set itself free and to emanate all its strength. It is as if the light is switched on. The gift of God is finally “unbound”, and the Spirit is allowed to flow like a fragrance in the Christian life.
In addition to the renewal of the grace of Baptism, the Baptism in the Spirit is also a confirmation of one’s own Baptism, a deliberate “yes” to it, to its fruit and its commitments. As such, it is also similar to Confirmation. Confirmation is the sacrament that develops, confirms and brings to completion the work of Baptism.
From it, too, comes that desire for greater involvement in the apostolic and missionary dimension of the Church that is usually noted in those who receive the Baptism in the Spirit. They feel more inclined to cooperate with the building up of the Church, placing themselves at her service in various ministries both clerical and lay, to witness for Christ--to do all those things that recall the happening of Pentecost and which are actuated in the sacrament of Confirmation.
The Baptism of the Spirit is not the only occasion known within the Church for this reviving of the sacraments if initiation. There is, for example, the renewal of the baptismal promises in the Easter Vigil. There are also the spiritual exercises and religious profession, sometimes called a “second Baptism.” At the sacrament level there is Confirmation. It is not difficult to discover in the lives of the saints the presence of a spontaneous effusion, especially on the occasion of their conversion. The difference with the Baptism in the Spirit, however, is that it is open to all the people of God, small and great, and not only to those privileged ones who do the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises or make religious profession.
The Will of God in History
Where does this extraordinary force that we experienced when were baptized in the Spirit come from? What we are talking about is not just some theory, but something that we ourselves have experienced and therefore can say with John, “What we have heard, what we have seen with our own eyes, what our hands have touched, this we also announce to you, so that you too can be in communion with us (see John 1:1-11). The explanation of this force is in the will of God because God was pleased to renew the Church today by this means, and this is enough.
There are certainly some biblical precedents, like the one told in Acts 8:14-17, when Peter and John, having heard that Samaria welcomed the Word of God, went there, prayed for them and laid hands on them so they could receive the Holy Spirit. But these biblical precedents are not sufficient to explain the vastness and depth of the contemporary manifestations of the Spirit.
The explanation, therefore, is in God’s plan...
What does the Baptism in the Spirit consist of, and how does it work?
In the Baptism of the Spirit, there is a secret, mysterious move of God that is His way of becoming present in a way that is different for each one. Only He knows us in our inner part and how to act upon our unique personality. There is also an external community part which is the same for everyone. This consists mainly of three things: brotherly love, laying on of hands, and prayer. These are non-sacramental but simply ecclesiastic elements.
From the Father and Son
Where does the grace we experience in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit come from? From those around us? No! From the person who receives it? No! It comes from God! We can only say that such grace is related to Baptism because God always acts with coherence and faithfulness. He honors the commitments and institutions of Christ. One thing is certain--it is not the brothers who impart the Holy Spirit, but they do invoke the Holy Spirit on the person. Only Jesus may give the Holy Spirit.
As to the manner of this grace, we may speak of a new coming of the Holy Spirit, of a new mission by the Father through Jesus Christ, or a new anointing corresponding to a new degree of grace.
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Anabela
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| Joined: | Sun Jun 15th, 2008 |
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Posted: Tue Jul 29th, 2008 10:26 am |
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My own experience of the Charismatic Renewal has not been great, and there is little emphasis on the Cross where all healing ultimately comes from. There was also little encouragement to do the corporal and spiritual works of mercy which is absolutely vital for us in our faith journey. While I acknowledge also the good that comes from the Renewal, we also have to be wary of getting caught up in spiritual greed (seeking the spiritual gifts for one self and not for the benefit of the Church).
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,' but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble." James 2:14-19
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