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Angie_Rivas1
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Downey, USA |
| Posts: | 110 |
| First Name: | Angie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 01:39 pm |
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I was not sure where to post this message. It is a question I have regarding the Holy Spirit's gifts. As some of you might remember a close friend I have who attends both nondenominational services during the week and attends mass on Sunday, she shared with me that she went to a catholic spiritual retreat with her group last weekend. My friend said that somehow the Holy Spirit took over her and she delivered a message for one of the attendees who was having difficulty forgiving. Addy, my friend, promises that she had nothing to do with this because she does not remember anything about the message. All she remembers is praying really hard for this man and the rest she does not remember anymore. In the message, God said that He forgives this man and to follow Him. When she was sharing this "good" news to me, I did not know what to say. I stumbled for words, all I could say to her was that I was glad she is searching for God. I think she was looking for assurance that I believe she has a special gift. I have doubts, though.
How can the the Holy Spirit take over someone like my friend? She truly believes He did. I have no intention to be critical, but merely stating the facts. My friend can be a "little" promiscuos in relationships. I have tried to explain to her that God is not happy with this immoral behavior, especially if the person knows the Lord. It seems she is finally understanding this concept, although she still has difficulty seeing "it" as a sin. I cannot speak too bluntly to her because she thinks I am preaching to her. She also believes the devil is tempting her and making her fall. I totally agree with her that this temptation she can defeat with prayer and the sacraments.
I know God can do anything He pleases, but does it include using my friend as an instrument to deliver a message? Is something wrong with me for not believing it? I know in the Old Testament, a person would speak in tongues and another person would interpret it, could it be possible that a third person is not needed anymore? I want to have a better understanding of the Holy Spirit. Bless you for your assintance in helping me make sense of all of this!
Angie
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"Be not afraid" JPII
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 01:59 pm |
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Yes, its possible.
In the Bible, God even spoke through a donkey once:
Numbers 22 :28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said: What have I done to thee? Why strikest thou me, lo, now this third time? 29 Balaam answered: Because thou hast deserved it, and hast served me ill: I would I had a sword that I might kill thee. 30 The ass said: Am not I thy beast, on which thou hast been always accustomed to ride until this present day? tell me if I ever did the like thing to thee. But he said: Never.
We are all unworthy instruments of the Lord.
I was not sure where to post this message. It is a question I have regarding the Holy Spirit's gifts. As some of you might remember a close friend I have who attends both nondenominational services during the week and attends mass on Sunday, she shared with me that she went to a catholic spiritual retreat with her group last weekend. My friend said that somehow the Holy Spirit took over her and she delivered a message for one of the attendees who was having difficulty forgiving. Addy, my friend, promises that she had nothing to do with this because she does not remember anything about the message. All she remembers is praying really hard for this man and the rest she does not remember anymore. In the message, God said that He forgives this man and to follow Him. When she was sharing this "good" news to me, I did not know what to say. I stumbled for words, all I could say to her was that I was glad she is searching for God. I think she was looking for assurance that I believe she has a special gift. I have doubts, though.
In my opinion, you should evaluate the message and not the messenger. If the message was against the teachings of Jesus Christ, then you know the wrong spirit gave that message. If the message is according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, then you can't prove that it isn't the Holy Spirit, so don't make your friend feel bad.
1 Thessalonians 5
19 Extinguish not the spirit.
20 Despise not prophecies.
1 John 4 1 Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 467
1 John 4 2 By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God:
You should also judge the fruits. If your friend seems to be moving towards the faith and leaving sin behind, then perhaps the Holy Spirit is moving in her:
Matthew 7
20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Sincerely,
Juan
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Sun May 27th, 2007 12:12 am |
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Angie_Rivas1 wrote:My friend said that somehow the Holy Spirit took over her and she delivered a message for one of the attendees who was having difficulty forgiving. Addy, my friend, promises that she had nothing to do with this because she does not remember anything about the message. All she remembers is praying really hard for this man and the rest she does not remember anymore. In the message, God said that He forgives this man and to follow Him.
While I am reluctant to say it “can’t happen” (in other words, what Juan says is not incorrect), I must admit that I too am having difficulty seeing the Holy Spirit in this lady’s account.
When she was sharing this "good" news to me, I did not know what to say. I stumbled for words, all I could say to her was that I was glad she is searching for God. I think she was looking for assurance that I believe she has a special gift.
She wants to believe that she has a special gift and wants to tell the world (or at least all her friends) about it. My experience with spiritual gifts (I’m speaking of others’ gifts, of course) is that the genuine article has no resemblance to this obvious ploy of vanity. To quote a well-known theologian of impeccable character:But there is a danger: a soul could mistake its own desires for action of the Gifts [of the Holy Spirit], since the reasons are not clear to it. Two points must be kept in mind: 1) The full and apparent action of these gifts does not appear until one is well advanced in the spiritual life (hidden assistance by them can come earlier). 2) Ordinarily an inspiration via the Gifts leaves the soul not fully certain — a signal to consult a director or superior. Uncommonly they will give certitude, but only when a decision must be made on the spot, and there is no time to consult. (Fr. William Most, quoted on the EWTN website)
The fact that your friend claims to have been “taken over” by the Holy Spirit yet does not remember the message is yet another reason for disbelief. How could the word of God be forgotten by such a vehicle? Nor does what she does remember show anything more than pious thoughts of a very pedestrian kind; certainly it could not be considered a private revelation.
I do not know (and it does not really matter) what you are referring to when you say:
My friend can be a "little" promiscuous in relationships. I have tried to explain to her that God is not happy with this immoral behavior, especially if the person knows the Lord. It seems she is finally understanding this concept, although she still has difficulty seeing "it" as a sin. I cannot speak too bluntly to her because she thinks I am preaching to her. She also believes the devil is tempting her and making her fall. I totally agree with her that this temptation she can defeat with prayer and the sacraments.
But you can see her touchiness and her misunderstanding of moral realities. This does not even come close to meeting the minimum requirement of being “well advanced in the spiritual life,” as mentioned above. How, then, does she claim to be an instrument of the Holy Spirit?
Frankly, Angie, I must agree with you that this whole episode is a farse. I do not believe her either. It sounds so much like yet another of those anti-Christian hoaxes that are annually trotted out to the media at Christmas and Easter, but your friend has fooled no one but herself, and I see no one laughing but the prince of darkness. Let us pray that she awaken from this dreamworld and enter into the truth.
David
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Lyell
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| Joined: | Wed Mar 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Livermore, California USA |
| Posts: | 25 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independant Charismatic, Generic Baptist, Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue May 29th, 2007 02:00 am |
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"My friend said that somehow the Holy Spirit took over her and she delivered a message "
This line bothers me. I have spent time in (both before I was a Catholic and as part of becoming a Catholic) in Pentacostal or Charismatic meetings. (aside: I always admired the Catholic Charismatic renewal when I was a protestant because it seemed to me that the Catholic Church took seriously its responsiblity to pastor these people, and the Cahtolic Charismatics seemed mostly to accept this pastoring.... unlike the protestant circles I was familar with where the charismatics were usually given the right foot of fellowship as they were drop kicked out the front door.....) OK, back to the subject at hand: this line bothers me because I believe that the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He never "somehow takes over" a person. The person being "used" by the Holy Spirit always retains their God-given dignity (and also our human limitations). This applies to Charismatics and non-Charismatics equally: both types of us are "used" by the Holy Spirit. We remember what we did and what we said. We may not understand it always, especially if it is part of larger picture. So when I hear the words "somehow the Holy Spirit took over " along with "my friend promises that she had nothing to do with this because she does not remember anything about the message": I don't think the Holy Spirit behaves in quite this way. So discernment is in order, especially here. Whenever I talk to anyone about personal spiritual matters (sometimes called "delivering a word gift" in Charismatic jargon), I try always to say something to the effect that "you, the hearer, have a responsibility to take all that I say back to your prayer closet and lay it out before God to see what, if anything, He would have you do about it". (and my prayer is "Lord, If what I say is of You, then take this word in the imcompleteness that I am and You complete it in the life of this person. If what I say is not of You, then may what I say fall to the ground and not be a distraction.) This applies in spades here. And seek godly counsel.
To quote another poster: sonetimes "pious thoughts of a very pedestrian kind" are exactly what a person needs to hear, and for them it is like getting hit over the head by Gods proverbial 2 by 4. I needed to hear lots of "pious thoughts of a very pedestrian kind" when I was a young Christian, and I love the people who had the humility and patientence to share those thoughts with me.
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Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ - St Jerome
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Tue May 29th, 2007 09:33 am |
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Lyell wrote:Sometimes ‘pious thoughts of a very pedestrian kind’ are exactly what a person needs to hear, and for them it is like getting hit over the head by Gods proverbial 2 by 4.
Quite true. But such thoughts, necessary as they may be, are on the level of ordinary reason. To represent them as “messages from the Holy Spirit” is a bit of a stretch. I believe we are agreed on this.
I believe that the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He never ‘somehow takes over’ a person.
This is a point I failed to stress, opting instead to point out the evident contradiction between believing that one is being “used” and having no inkling of what that use consists of or how it comes about. Glad you brought it up.
David
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Lyell
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| Joined: | Wed Mar 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Livermore, California USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independant Charismatic, Generic Baptist, Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue May 29th, 2007 09:29 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Lyell wrote:Sometimes ‘pious thoughts of a very pedestrian kind’ are exactly what a person needs to hear, and for them it is like getting hit over the head by Gods proverbial 2 by 4.
Quite true. But such thoughts, necessary as they may be, are on the level of ordinary reason. To represent them as “messages from the Holy Spirit” is a bit of a stretch. I believe we are agreed on this.
Oh, I dunno. Should I quible? Actually, I do think we are agreed on this. But to quible: a simple thought, like "Jesus Loves You" may take a mighty work of the Holy Spirit to get some people to actually believe it. That could be an earth shaking message from the Holy Spirit for some people, even if it took no great effort/word-from-God/private-revelation on my part to say it (thats because the Holy Spirit work it took to bring me to believe it was done years ago). Maybe it just takes a bit of a witness for me to say it. God's grace works in mighty ways , even in what may appear to be the simplest things.  Lyell gets off soap box, goes back to work.
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Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ - St Jerome
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed May 30th, 2007 01:35 am |
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Lyell wrote:
God's grace works in mighty ways, even in what may appear to be the simplest things.
I can’t disagree with this statement in its general sense. In other words, our very existence is a gift; how much more, then, are our acts of faith, hope and charity the result of divine grace?
However, specifically we are asking the question of whether God normally acts through additional grace to accomplish what can, under ordinary circumstances, be done by ordinary human effort on the natural level. And here the answer would have to be No. We are given sufficient grace to do what is necessary, but we do not need and should not expect a special grace to do what we can already do on our own.
In like manner, it is not necessary for a person to do something astounding when doing something ordinary will suffice. So if a person can convey a message of God’s love without resorting to a trance and the special intervention of the Holy Spirit, do you think God will approve the extra theatrics? Wouldn’t this destroy the fundamental law of the spirit: grace builds on nature?
David
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