 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 03:13 am |
|
One of the members of my OCDS group is dying. I almost typed that she is experiencing a horrible death because she is suffering so (and so long) and because I'm probably still too Protestant in my thinking in that area.
I watched the awful suffering of my father and my husband and begged God to take them, in His mercy, to end the suffering.
Now when I visit this beautiful, devout Catholic lady (Secular Carmelite for many years) and witness her suffering, day after day, week after week, everything in me cries out, "God! Take her to heaven now. Please!"
The nun reports that consistently this lady has been totally serene about her suffering, believing that she is involved in the redemptive work of Christ. So far as I know, she herself has not begged God to take her quickly.
Last night during Bible study when I asked what sort of prayer was within acceptable Catholic boundaries (in terms of doctrine and devotion) for this lady, someone said I should simply pray that she has a good death. I confess that did not satisfy me. Maybe I just haven't fully moved from the intellectual acceptance to the emotional acceptance (in such a case of extreme, prolonged agony) of the Catholic view of these matters. I know about Col. 1:24, of course, and I did a thread, Insights on Suffering (in Human Destiny), this past spring.
I guess I just have trouble not asking God to end her suffering. Any words of wisdom? I want my prayers to reflect heartfelt obedience to the Church's position, but am finding it difficult.
BeckyLast edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 03:22 am by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2260 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 04:02 am |
|
Go ahead and ask, Becky. Just be aware that God’s answer (and he always answers somehow) may be No.
Whatever God decides, you must accept that it is best for your friend. She may gain a higher place in heaven through her own acceptance, and you would not want to deny her that.
David
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 04:16 am |
|
David W. Emery wrote:
Go ahead and ask, Becky. Just be aware that God’s answer (and he always answers somehow) may be No.
Whatever God decides, you must accept that it is best for your friend. She may gain a higher place in heaven through her own acceptance, and you would not want to deny her that.
David
No, I would not want to deny her that, especially not when God seems to have given her the grace to bear this suffering. I have to consider that it could be my own suffering (distress), at least partially, that I look to alleviate. Thanks, David.
Becky
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
Didi
Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 207 |
| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic; almost left; Now an On-Fire Catholic! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:58 am |
|
Becky --
Remember that you can offer your own suffering to God as well as you watch your friend suffer. Knowing that she's offering her own suffering for the redemption of souls, I'm sure that would make her very happy.
As one who suffers physically and emotionally from chronic illness, I still struggle with this whole concept sometimes. Once, when I was really in pain, I cried out to God that I didn't want this anymore. It was one of those moments when I had a "conversation" with God in my head. He asked me if I trusted Him, and I said of course I trust You, Lord. Then He asked me if I would offer this suffering for a soul who really needed it, and I said I would; that I didn't really like the suffering, but as long as it was happening, I would offer it for that soul who needed the graces at that particular time. I try to remember this when I'm feeling sorry for myself. Offer it for someone who is worse off than I am, or someone who doesn't know Jesus at all.
Then it seems a rather small thing when we think of the suffering Jesus endured for all of us. At least I'm suffering in my own bed, and not on a cross.
It does somehow bring us closer to Jesus. We begin to understand the great love it takes to suffer for someone else. This is true love.
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:37 am |
|
Didi, God knew His children would need each other sometimes to avoid becoming discouraged. None of us has to worry about being the only person who ever suffered. That's for sure.
Tuesday night my Bible study group was discussing the Body of Christ (Ephesians 4). Your suffering and the way you handle it have an impact on me. My suffering and the way I handle it have an impact on you. We are members of one body. Usually, I'm much more motivated by the thought of protecting or helping someone else than I am by the thought of protecting or helping myself. I just don't want the responsibility (guilt) of contributing to another person's sin or mistake or weakness.
It's good to remember that others are watching us (our children, in particular), good to remember that each time we handle a situation well, we contribute to the health and strength of the whole Body of Christ.
And you are right, Dldi. Suffering does bring us closer to Jesus. Like you, sometimes I cry that I have had enough; but other times, even as my heart breaks, there is joy over how God can use a hurting heart to transform me and to give graces to others in need.
Pray that I may grow in charity, Didi. I will continue to pray for your health and for Mark's employment situation.
God bless you.
BeckyLast edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:04 am by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2260 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 11:17 am |
|
I have to consider that it could be my own suffering (distress), at least partially, that I look to alleviate.
But I suggested that you pray for her alleviation, not because God will grant it, but because in so doing you have the opportunity to share selflessly in her selfless suffering.
Usually, I'm much more motivated by the thought of protecting or helping someone else than I am by the thought of protecting or helping myself.
See, you do understand in spite of yourself.
David
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5453 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 12:08 pm |
|
As a hospice chaplain, I would pray for health and healing of mind, body, and soul according to God's will, and for the grace to accept whatever God sends. I would also pray for the strength of the patient and family to accept God's will, whatever it might be.
Sometimes God heals the soul rather than the body, and sometimes God heals the family rather than the individual. I saw it happen repeatedly when a family that often had not spoken for years would gather around the bedside of a loved one. That's healing, too. As chaplain, the social worker and I would work very hard to heal relationships within the family, telling the patient that their suffering was giving peace to the family, and suggesting that they offer their suffering for the healing of their family's relationships.
There are many types of pain and many types of healing. God's grace always relieves pain and suffering, but the healing is not always physical. Sometimes it is the grace of acceptance. That's healing, too.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 12:17 pm |
|
David W. Emery wrote:
I have to consider that it could be my own suffering (distress), at least partially, that I look to alleviate.
But I suggested that you pray for her alleviation, not because God will grant it, but because in so doing you have the opportunity to share selflessly in her selfless suffering.
Usually, I'm much more motivated by the thought of protecting or helping someone else than I am by the thought of protecting or helping myself.
See, you do understand in spite of yourself.
David
So it's a win/win situation for her, if I pray that God will end her suffering quickly. Either He will grant my request and mercifully take her soon. Or He will deny my request and, instead, reward her justly. Meanwhile, through my prayers for her relief, I myself will have followed her fine example of selfless suffering, all the while being obedient to Church teaching about suffering, death, prayer, and the Body of Christ.
I need to focus on what an improvement this is over my position as a Baptist who had to observe deathbed sufferings. When God did not take loved ones quickly, there was nothing much in my theology to offer comfort.
I am relieved to know that, as a Catholic, I can be at peace about praying for an end to her suffering (realizing that God may choose otherwise). That's the point others seemed unable to clarify.
Becky
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 12:31 pm |
|
CajunRick wrote:
As a hospice chaplain, I would pray for health and healing of mind, body, and soul according to God's will, and for the grace to accept whatever God sends. I would also pray for the strength of the patient and family to accept God's will, whatever it might be.
Sometimes God heals the soul rather than the body, and sometimes God heals the family rather than the individual. I saw it happen repeatedly when a family that often had not spoken for years would gather around the bedside of a loved one. That's healing, too. As chaplain, the social worker and I would work very hard to heal relationships within the family, telling the patient that their suffering was giving peace to the family, and suggesting that they offer their suffering for the healing of their family's relationships.
There are many types of pain and many types of healing. God's grace always relieves pain and suffering, but the healing is not always physical. Sometimes it is the grace of acceptance. That's healing, too.
Thank you, Rick.
I have begun working as a hospice volunteer. So far I have only advanced Alzheimer's patients, but sooner or later, I will be assigned to a patient whose mind is still intact. Could you recommend a little prayer book or two that would be good to keep with me when I visit such a person? I've been very open with everyone there about being Catholic. I was told they sometimes get requests from Catholic families/patients for a Catholic volunteer.
I saw the Abundant Life program on Midwife for the Soul. That book looked like an important one for me to read. I also would like a little Catholic prayer book geared toward hospice volunteering, though.
Thanks,
Becky
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5453 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:38 pm |
|
Intercessor wrote: [size=I also would like a little Catholic prayer book geared toward hospice volunteering, though.
]
It's not exactly little, but I haven't found a better book than the Ritual published by the Church. This link is a special combined version for lay people on Pastoral Care of the Sick and Dying.
If you visit any bookstore, you can find various sets of prayers to particular saints such as St. Peregrine for cancer. Also, I always used a prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, since the dying are at particular risk of attack by the Evil One. I would often give them a prayer card with a picture of St. Michael and place it in their view.
Also, St. Joseph as patron of a happy death is of particular comfort. Legend is that St. Joseph died peacefully in Jesus' arms, and even Protestants will happily accept that image as comforting.
Work with the hospice chaplain and always suggest a visit from the pastor of their church. If they are Catholic, ask if they have received the sacraments and with their permission, never hesitate to call their parish to place them on the communion list or to request a visit from their pastor for confession or anointing. If you are an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion you can bring them communion, but never usurp the authority of their pastor or parish. It is better to defer to the parish community than to do it yourself, if at all possible, as it will make the parish aware of their needs.
It is a wonderful ministry and very fulfilling. Thank you for saying yes.
Edited to fix link.
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:52 pm by
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:11 pm |
|
Rick, thanks for all these great suggestions. I think the prayer cards, in particular, will probably become very useful.
I am just a volunteer with the community hospice, not a lay minister from a parish; so I'll have to be careful about a lot of things. However, if the patient is Catholic and able to express needs/preferences or if relatives ask for prayers, then it will be good for me to be prepared.
A former Baptist Sunday School teacher can always come up with some pretty good prayers for almost any situation, but cradle Catholics might be better comforted by more formal Catholic prayers.
Becky
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1475 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:20 pm |
|
There was something about the teaching in the baptist church that always made me think suffering was punishment for something I had done, or maybe someone else had done. Like a smack on the bottom from God for a misbehavior?
Now I am beginnng to understand the catholic viewpoint, that suffering is just a part of life. We have to take the good with the bad, and even the suffering can be used for good for others. Offering up our suffering is a new concept to me and I don't think very many people have even heard of it, outside active catholic circles. To pray for someone's release from it, even while dying, just shows your compassion. To love others and wish for their pain to cease is what we are meant to do I think. Not that we should ever take matters into our own hands to speed up the process, but I don't think it's wrong to pray for someone's relief from suffering.
I have a question about offering up suffering and pain, do we offer the pain to God to take from us? Or are we telling God, I will suffer this pain as long as you choose to give it me, use it to help someone else while I have it?
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5453 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:31 pm |
|
Credo Catholic wrote: Now I am beginnng to understand the catholic viewpoint, that suffering is just a part of life. We have to take the good with the bad, and even the suffering can be used for good for others. Offering up our suffering is a new concept to me and I don't think very many people have even heard of it, outside active catholic circles. To pray for someone's release from it, even while dying, just shows your compassion. To love others and wish for their pain to cease is what we are meant to do I think. Not that we should ever take matters into our own hands to speed up the process, but I don't think it's wrong to pray for someone's relief from suffering.
Certainly not, but we must always remember that our ultimate prayer is to make God's will our will. If God chooses not to relieve our pain, we can accept it and use it to draw closer to God. Strangely enough, I never had a Protestant question their suffering, except for those who's pastors told them they were suffering because they didn't have enough faith. I would remind them that Jesus suffered most of all, and he certainly was not lacking in faith. Then I would remind them of all the martyrs in the early Church who suffered often because of their faith.
It is not wrong to pray for a happy death. The best any of us can hope for at the end of our earthly life is to be wrapped in our Savior's loving embrace, and if our pain and suffering can bring us closer to that goal, it is a blessing.
I have a question about offering up suffering and pain, do we offer the pain to God to take from us? Or are we telling God, I will suffer this pain as long as you choose to give it me, use it to help someone else while I have it?
When we offer it up, we are accepting it and using it to draw closer to God. Whatever graces we obtain above our own needs are then used by God and the Church wherever it is most needed. Someone else may give a more detailed explanation, but the whole idea of "offering it up" is that we accept it as a gift from God in all its unpleasantness. But it still doesn't mean that we cannot pray, as Jesus did, that this cup pass from us.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1475 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:42 pm |
|
| Thanks Rick, do you have some more words of wisdom about a related issue... My son is helping counsel a group of court ordered DUI offenders. This morning an elderly gentleman kept saying he had given his problem to Jesus. My son said that was good but he still needed to seek help and work a twelve-step program or some type of rehab, and not just sit back and ask Jesus to do the work. The man said no, he didn't need anything but Jesus and he would be alright. I hope this isn't off topic, because there is a lot of suffering in situations like this. What other words could my son use when this comes up again?
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:47 pm |
|
Credo Catholic wrote:
I have a question about offering up suffering and pain, do we offer the pain to God to take from us? Or are we telling God, I will suffer this pain as long as you choose to give it me, use it to help someone else while I have it?
I think the idea is that we experience it (suffer it) and give that suffering to God as our participation in the redemptive work of Christ.
We got into a discussion of this sort of thing at Saturday's OCDS meeting.
It's hard to get all these things straight, isn't it, Marsha? Indulgences, penances, sacrifices, offering up.
At the Marian shrine, on the wall is a declaration that anyone who prays in that place (and satisfies the usual requirements plus remembers the Holy Father, the Catholic Church, the local bishop, the local pastor and parish) will be granted an indulgence. I've also heard friends refer to their time spent, at the shrine in adoration, as a penance or as a sacrifice. Well, dumb me, all these months I've been asking God to grant me an indulgence and apply it toward my specific relative's coming into the Catholic Church.
I was told Saturday that I may not apply an earned indulgence toward a living person, only toward myself or a dead person. SIGH! What now? Do I ask God to retroactively change months of daily requests and apply all those indulgences toward myself (or a dead person)? Or do I tell God, "Uh, instead of indulgence, I meant to call all those hours of adoration penance/sacrifices. It seems too much like just semantics. Is it an indulgence or is it penance? Can one hour of an activity be both simultaneously? I don't know.
I just have to sigh and count on God's mercy and justice and sense of humor to be patient with me as I get the hang of the economy concepts.  I'm glad my mother doesn't know about any of this!!! I can hear her now.
BeckyLast edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:54 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5453 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:53 pm |
|
Credo Catholic wrote: Thanks Rick, do you have some more words of wisdom about a related issue... My son is helping counsel a group of court ordered DUI offenders. This morning an elderly gentleman kept saying he had given his problem to Jesus. My son said that was good but he still needed to seek help and work a twelve-step program or some type of rehab, and not just sit back and ask Jesus to do the work. The man said no, he didn't need anything but Jesus and he would be alright. I hope this isn't off topic, because there is a lot of suffering in situations like this. What other words could my son use when this comes up again?
"God helps those who help themselves."
Jesus didn't say to go home and prop your feet up. He said to pick up your cross and follow him. Read Matthew 25:31-46. Sometimes we are the least of God's people.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Current time is 06:34 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
