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left coast mystic
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| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 01:56 am |
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Okay, I understand and all my life have believed in the "communion of saints" across time and space. So on the one hand it makes perfect sense to me to ask a saint (or Mary) for their prayers, just as I would ask a friend or a spiritual director, or a priest or an intercessor. I know very little about specific saints, and as I learn about them I am more likely to develop a relationship with specific ones.
On the other hand, I have been "conversing" directly with God for several decades, and on that basis I don't get why you would ask someone else to ask God something that you could ask Him yourself. If you are unsure how to pray for a person or situation, then of course you would ask for help. This has been my experience as a person on prayer teams. But for the most part I am not uncertain how to approach God about something (primarily because I seek to learn His perspective rather than praying from my own).
Now I know that Catholics do pray directly to God, but I hear less about that than I do about asking Mary or the saints to intercede, so this leaves me confused. It may be that since God has been a "papa" to me in fulfillment of Psalm 68:5 (my earthly father died when I was an infant, on Christmas day) I have a stronger desire to seek Him out directly.
Also, it kind of bothers me that people often seem to consider saints to be almost like representations of a specific need (e.g. this is the patron saint of dishwashers) rather than as whole people. I certainly wouldn't limit my conversation with a friend only to the area that friend is an expert in, or has a job in. Why would we treat saints like that? Of course, I might be completely misinterpreting things.
Anyway, all input is helpful for me, so please have at it!
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 03:02 am |
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left coast mystic wrote:
Okay, I understand and all my life have believed in the "communion of saints" across time and space. So on the one hand it makes perfect sense to me to ask a saint (or Mary) for their prayers, just as I would ask a friend or a spiritual director, or a priest or an intercessor. I know very little about specific saints, and as I learn about them I am more likely to develop a relationship with specific ones.
On the other hand, I have been "conversing" directly with God for several decades, and on that basis I don't get why you would ask someone else to ask God something that you could ask Him yourself. If you are unsure how to pray for a person or situation, then of course you would ask for help. This has been my experience as a person on prayer teams. But for the most part I am not uncertain how to approach God about something (primarily because I seek to learn His perspective rather than praying from my own).
Now I know that Catholics do pray directly to God, but I hear less about that than I do about asking Mary or the saints to intercede, so this leaves me confused. It may be that since God has been a "papa" to me in fulfillment of Psalm 68:5 (my earthly father died when I was an infant, on Christmas day) I have a stronger desire to seek Him out directly.
Also, it kind of bothers me that people often seem to consider saints to be almost like representations of a specific need (e.g. this is the patron saint of dishwashers) rather than as whole people. I certainly wouldn't limit my conversation with a friend only to the area that friend is an expert in, or has a job in. Why would we treat saints like that? Of course, I might be completely misinterpreting things.
Anyway, all input is helpful for me, so please have at it!
Marcee,
The Our Father (which is repeated throughout the Rosary), the Divine Mercy chaplet, and the Mass are prayed directly to God the Father, as are prayers in the Liturgy of the Hours, but the concept of community is important in developing Catholic spirituality.
Because of my husband's long illness and my disenchantment with Protestantism, for several years I tried being a Christian as an individualist--my opinion, my interpretation, my priorities, my decision about which church programs were worthy, my private beliefs, my private prayer life to God. As a Catholic I have learned to move and breathe as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, not as an isolated individual. If others have a need, it is my need. If I have a need, it is the need of others. If I suffer, that suffering can benefit other members of the Body.
That sense of community extends to those in the Church Suffering and in the Church Triumphant. When we participate in the Mass, it is with the entire Mystical Body of Christ. When I struggle against evil, I am but one soldier in the Army. I draw comfort and inspiration and support from the prayerful involvement of all the other soldiers.
When I ask for help, I like to approach persons who have succeeded in what I am attempting, who have expertise, who know how to get to where I want to go, who are in positions of influence and access with the source of power, who can be trusted to faithfully do what I am asking (intercede for me). I don't have to wonder whether a saint is going to remember to pray for me. Nor do I need to worry about whether that saint has the holiness and disposition an effective intercessor should have.
Beyond the sense of community and the intercessory credentials of saints, there is the simple truth that the Church asks us to include the saints. In accepting the Authority of the Church, I had to embrace certain beliefs and practices that initially struck me as very strange indeed. With your spirituality, I predict that within a matter of a few months, you'll feel as if you've always been a Catholic in your prayer life.
One stops fretting over "Am I praying to God? or Am I praying to Mary? or Am I praying to St. Paul?" You will be praying not only as a child of God but also as a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. You'll be experiencing the community of the faith. O, the depth and the riches that lie ahead for you!
Here are a few threads that may have interest for you.
Click here 1.
Click here 2.
Click here 3.
Last edited on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 03:25 am by Intercessor
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 11:53 am |
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Intercessor has given you a beautiful explanation of intercessory prayer through the communion of saints and its importance in Christian life. Christ, in his wisdom, concurs: “Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:19–20). Again, if “the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16), how much more the prayer of many? We are in fact called to the Lord, not just individually, but as the People of God (cf. Hebrews 4:9, 11:25), the “assembly of the faithful” (Psalm 149:1; cf. Psalm 7:7 and 89:5).
Now I know that Catholics do pray directly to God, but I hear less about that than I do about asking Mary or the saints to intercede, so this leaves me confused.
This would be the natural emphasis of those outside the Church inasmuch as they disapprove. Within the Church, you will find that the main thrust of prayer is to God directly, even where intercession is involved. It is consummately true of the congregation of faithful in the Mass.
David
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left coast mystic
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 12:19 am |
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Becky -
Your explanation has been nourishing me for the past few days. What a wonderful (and understandable! and glorious!) description of the Spirit at work within the Church! Oh I want to participate fully in that communion! Pray for me that God would shorten the time I must wait.
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 03:01 am |
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left coast mystic wrote:
Becky -
Your explanation has been nourishing me for the past few days. What a wonderful (and understandable! and glorious!) description of the Spirit at work within the Church! Oh I want to participate fully in that communion! Pray for me that God would shorten the time I must wait.
How sweet. Thanks, Marcee. I just paraphrased what others on this forum taught me. In no time you will be explaining issues for new inquirers.
Already your faith has been a blessing here. I have prayed as you asked. However, as one who knelt through 128 Masses before being allowed to enter the Church, I highly recommend praying a Spiritual Communion as others go forward and attending adoration as many days of the week as possible. Those two practices, plus using the Blessed Mother and the Saints as intercessors will have you well on your way as you wait for confirmation and the Eucharist. I'm excited for you, Marcee.
Act of Spiritual Communion
My Jesus, I believe that You are in the Blessed Sacrament. I love You above all things, and I long for You in my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. As though You have already come, I embrace You and unite myself entirely to You; never permit me to be separated from You.
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 03:52 am |
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Intercessor wrote: left coast mystic wrote:
Becky -
Your explanation has been nourishing me for the past few days. What a wonderful (and understandable! and glorious!) description of the Spirit at work within the Church! Oh I want to participate fully in that communion! Pray for me that God would shorten the time I must wait.
[size=How sweet. Thanks, Marcee. I just paraphrased what others on this forum taught me. In no time you will be explaining issues for new inquirers.
Already your faith has been a blessing here. I have prayed as you asked. However, as one who knelt through 128 Masses before being allowed to enter the Church, I highly recommend praying a Spiritual Communion as others go forward and attending adoration as many days of the week as possible. Those two practices, plus using the Blessed Mother and the Saints as intercessors will have you well on your way as you wait for confirmation and the Eucharist. I'm excited for you, Marcee.
Act of Spiritual Communion
My Jesus, I believe that You are in the Blessed Sacrament. I love You above all things, and I long for You in my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. As though You have already come, I embrace You and unite myself entirely to You; never permit me to be separated from You.
] It truly is an awesome explantion Becky. THanks!
Marcee, in most parishes one can go forward for a blessing by the priest during Communion, so join with the 'saints militant' and receive all the our Lord has to offer you right now.
The awesomeness of Mass that just come to mind - it is offered by man to God, through God himself every moment in time - someplace in the world, from Mother Angelica:
THE MASS IN MY LIFE by Mother M. Angelica
Foundress of EWTN and the Poor Clare Nuns of Perpetual Adoration
My Jesus, somewhere in the world your people are celebrating the Eucharist. My heart feels cold and indifferent and I wonder why You died for me. Was it not enough to create me to show me Your love?
The Mass proclaims Your death to the world. The world has forgotten Your sacrifice - I, too, in my lukewarmness, take your Sacrifice for granted. This is a Celebration - a remembrance of the love You have for me and the hideousness of sin. The world looks upon sin as some minor offense - some involuntary weakness that is completely personal. How can I look upon You in Your Passion and even think for a moment that my sins are nothing? It took the Sacrifice of God's Son to atone for my sins - they deprive society of goodness and rob me of grace.
Oh, God, forgive me my sins but most of all forgive me for being so lukewarm - so negligent - so hardened to Your love. It is my fault, oh God, my grievous faults that nailed You to the Cross.
Prepare my heart to walk with You in Your Sacrifice and permit me to unite the sacrifices of my daily life with Yours. I unite my entire life with the life You lived on earth. I desire that my moment to moment existence be patterned after Your perfections.
Open my ears to understand Your Word as it is proclaimed throughout the world. Your Word is like a seed and my soul is the ground into which that seeds falls. Do not let the weeds of this world choke the seed and keep it from taking root. Let my soul be as the parched land that soaks up the living water and nourishes the seed.
My Jesus, I like to imagine You as You spoke to the crowds. I like to think my heart would have been inflamed with love as I listen to Your Word. How full of power You were as You spoke of the Father. Every word would have been so different, so gentle and so loving. I hope I would have followed Your counsels and applied them to my life.
Why do I revel in vain desires when I can apply the words I read in Scripture and those spoken by Your priest with as much fervor now as I would have then. All things are present to You, Lord. There is no past or future - all things - every moment of time - from its beginning to its end is present to You. This being true, permit me to unite myself to every Mass being celebrated at this moment and let me go through each moment of Your life with You. Let Your words and Your life penetrate my body and soul and make me like You.
Dear Jesus, whenever I see Your priest put wine and water in the chalice, I think of how the wine of Your Divinity was united to the water of our humanity at Your Incarnation. I unite the water of my imperfections, sins and weaknesses to the wine of Your infinite perfections. Change me as You will change this water and wine - transform me into a clear and perfect image of all Your perfections. Let the bread of my human nature be offered with this bread on the altar and by the power of Your Spirit, speak the words of comfort, strength and power that I need to overcome myself, the world and the Enemy.
I place on the paten all my loved ones, my neighbors, poor sinners and all mankind. I give You the people You have chosen, the priests that speak Your Word, the Church You have espoused to Yourself and ask You to pour grace and holiness upon them all.
Do not these common items of bread and wine remind You of the nothingness from which You drew us all? But now, soon, Your power will perform even a greater miracle. It is not beyond my comprehension to understand God creating everything from nothing, but for that same God to take such simple things like bread and wine and change them into Himself is a mystery, a love that staggers the imagination and makes the very angels stand in wonderment!
Dare I offer my mite - my meager love, my tiny spark to that flame? My God, would my spark be brighter at this moment if I forgave my brother - oh, then I do forgive - if I overcame some fault - then I shall overcome - if I were more compassionate to the weak, generous to the poor, considerate of the aged and patient with the young - oh, then, dear God, I shall be all these things today!
Lord Father, Your divine perfections thrill my soul. You are Lord, You are Goodness itself. All creation manifests Your power, wisdom and love. "You know me through and through." "From my mother's womb You chose me to know and love You." Everywhere I go You are there - there is no secret hiding place for me to run to. My very thoughts are known to You before they are to me. You care for me with deeper concern than a mother for her child. You provide for me with greater care than a father for his family. Your joy overflows when I reach to You in love - Your love pursues me - hounds me - when I stray from Your arms. You are glorious and I only cry out in joyful song that You alone are Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord, God, Almighty.
Your death and its proclamation at every Mass is enough in itself to make me holy if my faith were more living, my hope more joyful and my love more burning.
My Jesus, I wish I had been in the Upper room the night before You suffered for the redemption of those You loved so much. Again I entertain vain desires for am I not really present at the Last Supper at every Mass? My faith is weak and my love lukewarm. Yes, I am there -- that awe-inspiring moment when Your Apostles understood Your previous revelation of Your Body and Blood as food, is totally mine at every Mass. I can offer God to God in reparation for my sins. I can receive God into my soul so His Precious Blood, shed for me, begins to run its course in my heart.
I can see Your Face at the Last Supper, Lord Jesus, as You looked up to heaven to the Father who sent You and gave Him thanks and praise. I wish I had the courage to praise the Father before every sacrifice that His Wisdom asks of me. Give me that total consecration to the Father's Will, that union with the Father's Love.
Did the Apostles gasp in wonder as they heard You say, "Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is My Body which will be given up for you"?
I look upon the Host whenever I am at Mass, speechless and struck with awe at such humility. My life is so full of me -- so full of pride -- so full of the need to keep my identity. You are willing to hide Your Glory and Majesty behind this wafer, so I may gaze at my God and not die. You want me to be comfortable in Your Presence -- to speak to You unencumbered by the difference in our natures. Oh Love, that is not loved, how can I return Your love? Wash me clean, dear Jesus, clean me of every sin and weakness. Cover me over with mercy and forgiveness.
"When supper was ended, He took the cup. Again He gave You thanks and praise, gave the cup to His disciples and said, 'Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of My Blood, the Blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all men, so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.'"
Wine is changed into Your Blood with the same ease Your word created light and planets, men and angels. Your word changes what was created into the Uncreated -- the finite into the infinite. First, God becomes man, then God changes bread and wine into His own Body and Blood. By the separate consecration of bread and wine, the death of Jesus is proclaimed to the world. Truly I am at Calvary at every Mass for He is born, He dies, He lives and He becomes my food.
Lamb of God, prepare my soul to receive Your Body and Blood. The next Communion I am privileged to receive must be one of great fervor, devotion and thanksgiving. I am not worthy to receive You but that is the very reason You come into my heart. You have come to save sinners, heal broken hearts, comfort the afflicted and console the lonely.
You are the Divine Physician who comes to heal and forgive. In Your generosity You share Your Divine nature with me and Your Wisdom has devised such a simple way to fulfill the longings of Your heart for the love of Your unworthy child.
My Jesus, have mercy on all those among my friends, family and relatives waiting and being purified of those imperfections that keep them from You. Release them from their place of purification and grant that they may enter Your Kingdom. If I were in their place now, I would certainly desire to have changed my life while my will had the opportunity to choose. Let me change now as I may one day wish I had done.
Grant, dear Jesus, that I may live in Your Presence, recall that Presence within and around me, and always accomplish my duties in an attitude of loving obedience to Your Will.
Lord Spirit, give me a deep realization of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. My faith is often weak and the worries of this life rob me of spiritual realities. His humility in a tiny host, His longing to be united to me at Holy Communion is often obscured by my lukewarmness, neglect and preoccupation with the things of the world. I'm sorry for my tepidity and I ask You, Holy Spirit, to give me a Faith Vision so I may benefit by this Gift of Gifts - the Eucharist.
Heavenly Father, when Your priest holds up the host and says "the Body of Christ" let my soul bow in humble adoration before the love and humility of Jesus. Let my heart be a pure resting place for Your Son. I desire, dear Father, that the image of Jesus grow brighter in my soul after every Communion. At that tremendous moment God and I are one.
My Jesus, so shine in me that together we may glorify the Father by bearing fruit in abundance. Let us go out into the world together and radiate Your love and kindness. Have mercy on poor sinners, the hungry, the poor, the sick and the aged. Lead mankind to a deeper knowledge of Your love for them and guide us all in the right path.
My Jesus, let my heart sing out for joy, for You dwell in it. Let my mind be filled with heavenly thoughts for Your Father desires to reign there. Let my soul be guided by Your Spirit for He wishes to sanctify it.
I am a child of God through Baptism and my resemblance to Him has grown stronger through Holy Communion. May I never forget my last Communion and may my heart yearn for the next one.
Somewhere, someplace there is a Mass being said -- a Calvary to be present at -- a Communion to receive, either sacramentally or spiritually -- an opportunity to be more like Jesus, the privilege of helping my neighbor, a time to say "I thank You, God", a situation to choose Jesus over myself or a chance to make a sacrifice.
Truly, the Mass will go on and on until one day the Father will say, as His Son once said, "It is finished." Yes, the Lamb of God shall reign triumphantly with all those who have been washed clean in His Blood.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/euchb3.htm
We, as Catholics are talking with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit 24/7.without ceasing - through the Church in communal worship and in our private prayers.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 04:42 pm |
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For some of the apologetic rationale behind intercession of the saints (my specialty!), see my web page:
Saints, Purgatory, and Penance
One key is "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (James 5:16; in RSV it reads ". . . has great power in its effects"). We ask the sanctified and perfected saints in heaven to pray for us to God and their prayers have much more power (especially Mary's, because she was the Mother of God, i.e., the Son, and never sinned even while on earth) than our own prayers have. I recently summed up the Catholic reasoning on this as follows:
1) We ask others to pray for us.
2) Those who die in Christ are still alive and part of the Body of Christ too.
3) Saints in heaven are aware of earthly events (e.g., Heb 12:1).
4) We see them praying for us in at least one instance in the Bible (Rev 6:9-10).
5) The prayer of a righteous man avails much.
6) Saints are perfected in holiness and sanctity.
7) Therefore their prayers would have much power.
8) Ergo, we can ask them to intercede to God for us.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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left coast mystic
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 01:43 pm |
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Dave -
I completely agree with the teaching (doctrine?) of the intercession of the saints. Perhaps some of my disconnect comes from the fact that generally when I need someone to intercede for me I ask my husband, who is a living example of James 5:16. Of course, there's a roadblock if what I am praying for has to do with our relationship! 
I'm still trying to absorb the reason for "set" prayers. I'm beginning to "get" it intellectually that these are an expression of the communion of the church - that there is something very deep about praying together, not at the same time, but with the same words. I guess it will just take time to comprehend that with my heart.
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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sewnsew
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:13 pm |
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I'm still trying to absorb the reason for "set" prayers. I'm beginning to "get" it intellectually that these are an expression of the communion of the church - that there is something very deep about praying together, not at the same time, but with the same words. I guess it will just take time to comprehend that with my heart Having grown up High Anglican I learned the many of the prayers and the liturgy word for word as I grew up- I find that when I am at my most upset phrases come into my mid from those memorized prayers and they are a great comfort when I am not necesarily abel to "form spontanious prayer thoughts" Also often when I am praying in a church- often a quiet empty church I do feel connect with others who may be saying those prayers as well as those who came before me....
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 05:55 pm |
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left coast mystic wrote: I'm still trying to absorb the reason for "set" prayers.
They are actually just spontaneous prayers that someone else wrote.
Few ministers of any faith will give an invocation or blessing at a dinner or sporting event without writing something down. I am free to use my own words, or words from scripture, or the words of St. Thomas Aquinas, or those of any number of great Christian writers. Certain prayers written by others have been generally accepted into the treasury of the Church as models of how we are to pray. That doesn't mean I have to pray in those words.
If you walk into a courtroom, you'll hear lawyers repeat phrases they heard other lawyers use. Doctors do it all the time. So do politicians.
And we do it when we pray. Why should I "reinvent the wheel" to honor Mary if the "Hail Holy Queen" says exactly what I want to say? And using the great prayers allows us to pray individually as a group as well. We can't do that spontaneously.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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