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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Nov 21st, 2006 02:33 am |
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Hello Everyone,
Can someone tell me why it is that Catholics do not end the Lord's Prayer with, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever." ???
As always, I appreciate your answers.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Talithacumi
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| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Nov 21st, 2006 04:28 am |
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Darlene wrote: Hello Everyone,
Can someone tell me why it is that Catholics do not end the Lord's Prayer with, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever." ???
As always, I appreciate your answers.
Darlene
Darlene,
Funny you should ask... because I've always wondered why Protestants add that doxology to the Lord's Prayer... after all, it's not there in the Bible  .
But when we pray the Lord's Prayer at Mass, actually, we do say it. It's just that there's a short prayer by the priest first, and we use it as a response.
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Tue Nov 21st, 2006 07:16 am |
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The doxology you refer to is not part of the Lord’s Prayer as it exists in the bible. It comes from the Church’s ancient liturgy, which was restored in the current liturgy.
The mystery is not that the Catholic Church uses it, but that Protestants have adopted this non-biblical part of a traditional Catholic prayer. It appears that this came about because some few manuscripts of the original Greek of the Gospel According to Matthew have inserted the words of the liturgical doxology into the text. This and the fact that at the time of the Protestant Reformation the Catholic liturgy did not include these words evidently prompted the early Protestants to adopt the practice of using the doxology. So it’s a case of anti-Catholicism (“The Catholics do thus and so; therefore, we shall do the opposite”) that backfired since the words are actually part of Catholic tradition.
David
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lia
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 11:32 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: [size= So it’s a case of anti-Catholicism (“The Catholics do thus and so; therefore, we shall do the opposite”) that backfired since the words are actually part of Catholic tradition.
David]
Now that's cool! 
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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nonsumdignus
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Phoenix, Arizona USA |
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| First Name: | Jay | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, "ex-static" to be Catholic! |
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 11:30 pm |
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The words of the ending of the Lord's Prayer (Our Father) originated in 1 Chronicles 29:11. "Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heaven and the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all." (RSV)
An abbreviation of this verse was used as a doxology at various intervals in the Holy Mass of the first century, including after the Our Father. (See The Didache.)
These words were put on the lips of Jesus by the KJV, copied in error from a gloss into the text at Matthew 6:9-13 (compare Luke 11: 1-4 in the KJV). English-speaking Protestants after 1611 accused Catholics of "leaving out part of the Lord's Prayer." And still do to this day.
It is used as a doxology after the Our Father in the vernacular Mass. After the congregation prays, "...but deliver us from evil," the priest prays: Deliver us, O Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from all sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ."
The congregation then says, "For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever."
The words are those of the Chronicler, not the words of Jesus.
Peace to all.
Last edited on Tue Dec 19th, 2006 11:44 pm by nonsumdignus
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"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." Philip Melanchthon, Luther's cohort, Epistles, Book IV, Ep. 100
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GoFisher
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 07:15 pm |
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Darlene wrote: ... end the Lord's Prayer with, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever." ??? Darlene
No, rather, Catholics DO PRAY what you just wrote, at the end of "The Lord's Prayer / Our Father" at EVERY MASS. We pray that after the priest says, "deliver us Lord from every evil, and grant us peace in our day... us from all anxiety..." This is true when it is spoken and when it is sung by the whole congregation during Mass.
After I answered your Q, I noticed that others had answered it too. What is the source of the answers given above?
I also wonder what a source would be that tells what gestures go where. Some folks put their palms together when they pray during Mass. Some tap their chest with their fist three times saying "My Lord and My God" during the consecration. I did not hear of these gestures in RCIA.
Before RCIA, a priest did tell me about the "Lord, guard my mind, my mouth and my heart" prayer we say as we make a sign of the cross on our foreheads, mouth and chest right while saying, "glory to You Lord" before The Gospel is read.
Last edited on Mon Jan 15th, 2007 07:24 pm by GoFisher
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Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 09:03 pm |
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GoFisher wrote: After I answered your Q, I noticed that others had answered it too. What is the source of the answers given above?
I believe each poster has included source references. Was there something specific you had in mind?
I also wonder what a source would be that tells what gestures go where. Some folks put their palms together when they pray during Mass. Some tap their chest with their fist three times saying "My Lord and My God" during the consecration. I did not hear of these gestures in RCIA.
Many of these gestures are traditional in certain areas, and some others were originally part of the Latin mass. Some are specified in the Latin original of the Sacramentary but dropped from the English version, and that's one of the reasons the Sacramentary (which will again be called the Roman Missal) is in the process of revision.
For example, the prayer "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed" used to be said three times. The original translation was closer to this: "Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed." The new translation has not been released, but it is my understanding that it will be much closer to this original wording, and we will say it three times.
Also, the confetior at the beginning of mass once read, "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grevious fault" and all would strike their breast in repetition of the Hebrew gesture of guilt. That is supposed to be reintroduced in the new translation.
There are other gestures that were part of the Latin liturgy that may be returned under the new translation.
Before RCIA, a priest did tell me about the "Lord, guard my mind, my mouth and my heart" prayer we say as we make a sign of the cross on our foreheads, mouth and chest right while saying, "glory to You Lord" before The Gospel is read.
As I cross my forehead, lips, and chest, I say "Lord, may your words be in my mind, on my lips, and in my heart." The priest says (it's been a long time since I've read the actual words, so this is from a faulty memory!) "Lord, guard my mind, my lips, and my heart, that I may fittingly proclaim your word." When I am Lector, I say a very similar prayer before I begin to read.
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nonsumdignus
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Phoenix, Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 33 |
| First Name: | Jay | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, "ex-static" to be Catholic! |
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Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2007 01:51 pm |
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GoFisher wrote: What is the source of the answers given above?
Are you referring to the information about Chronicles and the ending of the Lord's Prayer (Our Father)? That came from a very tattered, old paperback book called The Question Box by Rev. Bertrand L Conway, issued by the Paulist Press in 1929. I don't even remember where I got it, probably in a used book store. But it's a great reference book.
The info about the marginal gloss in the manuscripts from which the KJV was translated are from the same source, although I have read it a number of times in other publications.
The Didache (nickname for The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) is a first-century instruction book used to teach adult pagans desiring to enter the Catholic Church. It is available on line at a number of websites. One is newadvent.org. Go to "Church Fathers" and you will find it listed there. It is amazing -- it was a big influence in my conversion.
Anything else? Thanks for the question.
Jay
Last edited on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 01:58 pm by nonsumdignus
____________________
"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." Philip Melanchthon, Luther's cohort, Epistles, Book IV, Ep. 100
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