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jsking1964
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| Joined: | Sat Dec 15th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Benedict | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Basically I have been a Christian all my life, and ... |
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 01:11 am |
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| OK when I was a Protestant, I was told that the only way to the Father was by praying to Him in the name of Christ, Amen. However, the way I understand prayer now is that we can pray to the Saints and the virgin Mary to get to Christ and the Father. Is that what it means?
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Your friend in Christ, +
JS Benedict
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemed. Mark 16:16
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 02:00 am |
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Hmmm. This would be a way of saying that the Protestant understanding of prayer is too narrow. And it would be true from that perspective.
But first, let’s look at a couple of points.
1. There are three Persons in the blessed Trinity, who is God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We can pray to any or all of these Persons as to God, because they are God. Praying to the Father alone, therefore, is just part of the story of prayer to God. Much of my own prayer is directed to God the Son, Jesus Christ, especially as he is present in the Eucharist, which he says in the gospel is his body and blood, the food of eternal life (John 6:54), for to him and his self-sacrifice on the cross is attributed the salvation of all human souls. I also pray to the Holy Spirit, especially for sanctification of my acts as I go about my daily life, for to him is attributed the life of grace.
2. The meaning of “prayer” differs between prayer to God and prayer to the saints. (The Virgin Mary is one of the saints — the highest of all the saints, but otherwise just like the rest of us who make it to heaven.) When we pray to God, it is a prayer of adoration. When we pray to the saints, we ask their intercession with God; so we are not treating the saints as “little gods.” They are human beings like us. They have their place and function in heaven, and this is how they exercise it.
The saints intercede on our behalf because they love us. It is, therefore, an act of charity that they should offer their help. St. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 13, tells us that charity, the queen of virtues, “never fails,” but is continued even in heaven, where the saints are. Why? Because God himself is love, and therefore he wants all who belong to him to love as he does. And if “God so loved the world — us — that he gave his only Son,” so likewise will all the saints, now so God-like in their fullness of life in heaven, want to love us and help us in our walk with God.
God allows — more, encourages — this intercession, then, because of who he is and because of his love for the saints and for us who want to become saints. And so it is that their aid is effective and worthwhile. God grants us his grace and salvation on the basis of that aid.
This does not negate that Christ is the only intercessor, for all the intercession of the saints is done in his name. It does not negate the fact that all salvation comes through Christ’s sacrifice, for the saints are drawing on the graces that emanate from that singular sacrifice, and not their own merits or power, to supply us with the help we need. It does not negate the fact that “No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6) because it is to Christ alone that the saints lead us.
And so in this way, Jason, you can see that the Catholic understanding of prayer is much fuller and richer than other notions. God bless you in your journey.
David
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Michael Ewing
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 03:16 am |
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Hey guys,
I don't pretend to be an expert on any of this, but felt I should chime in here.
Until only recently, and I mean VERY recently, I have had a major issue with praying to anyone other than God (and by God, I mean the Trinity). Ironically, as a side note, I have traditionally prayed primarily to God the Father, however, I find myself praying directly to the "persons" of Christ and the Holy Spirit much more. I'm trying to spread the love around a bit, so to speak! 
The way that praying to others besides God was recently explained to me made alot of sense to me, as a very "lay" person. I thought maybe it might help if I were to share it.
What I understood in my previous "protestant mindset" (I was never a member of another church, however was certainly coming from that school of thought for some time), is that you are not to pray to anyone other than God, because it would be idolatry, and furthermore, you don't pray to the saints because they are dead. This, from what I understand, is one of the reasons Maccabees is left out of the protestant "canon." Am I right?
Anyways, first off, as Christians, by definition, we believe that those who believe in Christ are NOT dead, but risen in Him. In fact, that is what we aspire to, for lack of better term, when we leave this life. Therefore, if you are "praying to the saints," you are not praying to dead people, but to those who are risen in Christ. So, to take it a step further, if you regard the saints as being dead people, you are indicting yourself as not fully having faith in Christ and redemption. This is my understanding, David, feel free to set me straight.
Secondly, we don't believe that Mary died, we believe that she ascended, and as David pointed out, she would clearly rank as the Queen of the saints. So, she is like, the super-saint (it is not my intention to be flippant or disrespectful here). So, she wouldn't fall under the category of "praying to the dead."
Thirdly, all Christians ask other fellow Christians to pray FOR them for various things. They ask their friends, family, and fellow Christians to "intercede" for them. I pray for others everyday. I'm sure you do, too.
David touched on the idea that we don't pray "to" them, it's probably not an accurate word, but for whatever reason, this is how we word it. We basically ask them to pray for us. This is simply the role that these great people play in the afterlife, so to speak.
We know that these people are so full of love for us because of their redemption through Christ, that they are willing to pray for us all the time. It's kind of like, not what you know, but WHO you know. Haha.
Also, as David said, these are prayers of "adoration." These are our role models! These are the people who we should have posters of up on our walls! If Fathead (hope everyone knows what I'm talking about here) would make a Fathead of Mary or St. Anthony, I'd be all over that!
I guess, I would just say not to get too bent out of shape about the term "pray to." People who understand the meaning of it used in that context KNOW that they are not committing idolatry by doing so. Some of the protestants (and many Catholics, like me) simply are misinformed or ignorant.
Hope my comments can help, and hope I didn't undo any of the good work that David did with his response.
God Bless!
Mike Ewing
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"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 01:31 pm |
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Michael Ewing wrote:If you are "praying to the saints," you are not praying to dead people, but to those who are risen in Christ. So, to take it a step further, if you regard the saints as being dead people, you are indicting yourself as not fully having faith in Christ and redemption. This is my understanding, David, feel free to set me straight.
Right on so far, Mike.
We don't believe that Mary died, we believe that she ascended.
Our official belief does not specify whether Mary died an earthly death. We believe that “after the course of her earthly life” she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven. Jesus Christ ascended, Mary was assumed. The difference is that Christ went to heaven by his own power as God incarnate, while Mary, being only human, had to depend on God’s power to raise her to heaven.
There are, additionally, distinct traditions in the Catholic Church, one saying that Mary did not die but was taken up to heaven much as the prophet Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire (2 Kings 2:11). Another tradition affirms that she did in fact die and was buried, but that a few days later her body was not found in the tomb. This can be compared to the story of Christ’s own resurrection.
We don't pray "to" them, it's probably not an accurate word, but for whatever reason, this is how we word it.
Actually, if we understand the original meaning of “pray” (referring to any form or level of asking for something; it does not imply worship), praying to the saints is quite accurate. But in more recent times, “praying with the saints” to God has become a popular way of expressing the relationship. So in this sense you are correct.
Fathead (hope everyone knows what I'm talking about here)
I’m afraid I don’t. Could you enlighten us?
David
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 01:50 pm |
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Hi Jason,
Mike and David have made great comments. To supplment what they've said (and to give some of the bilical rationale), here is a short treatment of the topic I wrote, that might be helpful:
The Communion of Saints: Biblical Overview
If you'd like to delve into the topic more deeply, see the many papers on my web page:
Saints, Purgatory, and Penance
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Michael Ewing
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Iowa USA |
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| First Name: | Mike | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic, spiritually left the Church during late teens, dabbled ... |
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 07:34 pm |
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David,
Thanks for the clarification on ascension vs. assumption. Whoops. That's what I meant. Ha. Sorry about the slip up, hope it didn't add to anyone's confusion. On that subject, it's great that we have some moderators on here who are willing to step up and clarify for us, especially in such a timely manner, thanks for your service!
Regarding the original definition of "pray," I will take your word for it. I guess I am coming from too contemporary of a point of view, and I need to re-examine that. Thanks.
There is a company called Fathead that makes life sized vinyl wall hangings, primarily of sports stars. This is your "Michael Jordan poster for the 21st Century" so to speak. They typically feature your favorite athletes and celebrities in action poses, and are used as decoration. http://www.fathead.com for more info. After you see what I'm talking about, I think you'll get what I'm talking about when I referred to having fatheads of Jesus and the saints on our walls. Basically, the point I was getting at was that we as Catholics should utilize the saints, if not for anything else, as great role models for us.
While we are on the subject of saints, and maybe this would be more appropriate to be posted in another thread, maybe someone could shed some light on something for me. The "definition" of saints has been a source of disagreement between some of my protestant friends and I. Apparently, some of these folks think that when saints are referred to in the Bible, that they are referring to ALL Christians. Any insight?
Thanks to the 2 Daves for the clarifications. I will check out your links, Mr. Armstrong.
Mike Ewing
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"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 09:43 pm |
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OK, now I am suitably briefed on Fatheads.
Yes, your question on saints would most suitably be addressed in a separate thread. This thread is on prayer, and touches only incidentally on the saints.
David
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