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Lee
Member
| Joined: | Fri May 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Birmingham, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 70 |
| First Name: | Lee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Charismatic-nondenom.-Presbyterian-Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 17th, 2007 10:45 pm |
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This topic has probably been discussed to smithereens, but I would like a suscinct and to the point clarification. We, all new converts and their kids, went to a Posada, the Mexican tradition of the children acting out Mary and Joseph knocking on doors, and being turned away. We prayed the Rosary, each time for a specific intention, and we prayed to our own guardian angel. We prayed the Our Father each time. BUT we did not pray to the Lord, except in the Our Father. I mean that the leader talked about how we should love Jesus, but we never prayed directly to the Lord (except the Our Father). My friends' 4-year-old daughter shouted out at one point to her parents, "Why are they saying that (Hail Mare, full of grace, etc.) over and over again!" The mom said, "Because we are praying to Mary." The little girl said, "But why do we have to say it over and over again."
And I must admit at that point I was wondering why we couldn't just ask the Lord for our petitions, at least once in a while.
We talked about this a lot today and decided that we should make an unspoken rule to ourselves to not pray to Mary or any saint until we've prayed whatever it is to the Lord. That way, we won't become Catholics who are overboard on the saints (which we have known some who pray to st. Anthony when they lose something or pray to Mary, but never mention Jesus.)
Our long-time Catholic friend said, "Oh you converts are so afraid that praying to saints is going to block Jesus out. Do you think when you talk to a friend, you're blocking Jesus out?"
I would just like to know your take on this. I do believe in praying to saints, and really love that we can. I guess us converts are just paranoid that Jesus is going to be forgotten. I still have a problem with pictures in Catholic book stores of Mary and Jesus side-by-side as if they're equal when they're not. But that's another subject.
What are your thoughts. I'd like to have a simple guideline about this so that I am balanced about it.
Thanks,
Lee
smithereens
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5310 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Mon Dec 17th, 2007 11:26 pm |
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Lee wrote: And I must admit at that point I was wondering why we couldn't just ask the Lord for our petitions, at least once in a while.
We do, but the Rosary is a prayer specifically dedicated to Mary. If you look at the greatest prayer, the holy sacrifice of the Mass, it is prayed almost exclusively to the Father, along with the Son and Holy Spirit. In fact, we conclude the Eucharistic Prayer with the Doxology:
"Through Him (Jesus), with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, forever and ever. Amen."
As part of our Eucharistic Prayer we unite our prayers to those of Mary and the saints, but our prayer is directed to our Creator.
But the rosary offers a bouquet to Mary, and so it is directed to her.
Is there a reason we can't do both?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tolland County, Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 176 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 17th, 2007 11:28 pm |
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Lee -
Do you have a favorite teacher from your school days ? How about a favorite golfer if you golf, . - tennis, etc. A favorite actor ?
I guess you see where I'm headed. We see a good and or admirable quality in another person and can learn from them, even the less than perfect ones, ( like most of us  ) - people that God has created and put in our lives, - directly or indirectly. Someone that has, to a more or lesser degree, had an impact on us.
There are so many canonized Saints because there are so many different kinds of people ( such a variety in God's family !), and we can always find any number of them who we can learn from, identify with, often for seemingly intangible reasons at the outset of our meeting them. They just have a quality or qualities that resonate with us. They serve to broaden and deepen our hearts toward God.
Hope that helps for starters :? .
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David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2034 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 18th, 2007 02:27 am |
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Lee, I believe that for the answer to your difficulty, one need look no farther than scripture: “He who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20). Again, from the mouth of Jesus himself: “Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20).
In what way is fraternal charity and honoring the God’s friends “blocking Jesus”? The first verse tells us just the opposite: that we cannot begin to love God until we are able to love our neighbor and, consequently, to love the saint that God himself loves and honors by accepting him into close intimacy with him in heaven. The second verse, in concert, tells us that Jesus comes to us precisely in the communion we have with the saints, whether those of earth or those of heaven.
David
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brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 799 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Dec 19th, 2007 02:18 am |
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Lee, I too am a recent convert. I think about things like this occasionally. I love the newfound ability to pray with the saints and Mary. I too sometimes go through seasons where I put more or less emphasis on it. The rosary has a lot of prayer to Mary, but it is more in the background and most of the meditations are about Jesus.
But I too worry occasionally that maybe people forget to give the Trinity the most devotion, and at times I get a feeling like some people tend to favor Mary or go to her more often. But honestly, the longer I am Catholic the less I worry about this. Most Catholics I know love Jesus above all and realize that He is Lord and that Mary is more of a comfortnig mother type who powerfully interceeds.
But sometimes Mary is who God wants to bless us through. Recently I realized I had not thoguht of her so much except to say some formal prayers. I sort of began to speak informally with her, and realized that I missed her. I seemed to draw nearer to God very quickly. So maybe each of us is different with how we are bound to grow. Nobody is supposed to be more devoted to a saint than to God or to love them more. But maybe diferent people need different amounts of different devotions at different times. Sometimes we need that mother figure. Sometimes God wants to include more people on the deal. But like Rick mentioned, the mass is the highest prayer we have. The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. People may practice prayer diffferetnly, but Catholicism is designed in such a way that the Holy Trinity is always where the most glory will go and everyone else is fortunate enough to share in it. Even the saints help us by asking God and conforming to His will using the gifts He gace them.
Don't worry too much about who you pray to first and how much. Just love. Worship God only. Love all generously. I think that eventually it comes more naturally. Where I feel like you, is that I want to make sure that I pour my heart out to God and do not replace this with talking to saints. But sometimes different saints bring out different things to me. We are a body after all. Anyway, just remember you are free to pray as you sense God wants you to, and you do not need to worry too much about it. Just draw near to God and He will draw near to you. He will take care of the rest.
Brian
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1658 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2007 09:11 pm |
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Hi Lee,
It's a good, perfectly valid question that you ask. Here is how I replied to it in a paper of mine:
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A Protestant friend asked the question that always comes up in any discussion of the Catholic view on the communion of saints: Why WOULD anyone content themselves with seeking the intercession of a manager, even at the highest level (where Mary undoubtedly is) when one can go to the CEO Himself?
One simple reason: because we are informed in the Bible that the prayers of certain people have more efficacy than those of others: . . . The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit. (James 5:16-18; RSV) One immediately thinks of other powerful intercessors such as Abraham and Moses. God sometimes did not destroy entire cities or peoples as a result of their pleas. Of course God cannot change and knew what He was going to do all along, but the point is that He involved His creatures in the process in a lesser, secondary fashion. They participated, just as Paul states that we "work out our own salvation" (Philippians 2:12).
The Apostle John writes: "if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him" (1 Jn 5:14-15). Similar themes are common in Scripture. I need not document further. The principle is already established.
Following this line of thought, then, if Mary is indeed sinless (I am still within the Catholic paradigm, for the sake of argument), then it follows inexorably (right from Scripture) that her prayers would have the greatest power and efficacy, and not only because of her sinlessness but because of her status as the Theotokos and Spiritual Mother, for which God appointed her.
We pray for each other because we are to love one another, and prayer is an obvious aspect of love, for if we love someone, and know of a way that they can be aided, we pursue that avenue on their behalf. That's what intercession is. God grants us that great privilege, and we do it because we love others and wish to show forth Christ's love. Jesus told us to pray. That settles it.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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