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Luke12:48
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 15th, 2006 12:38 am |
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If God's will is eternal and unchanging and prayer is conforming to that will, then what is the purpose of praying for specific intentions or even more confusing-for specific individuals? Wouldn't the individual in question need to pray on their own?
Along the same lines, if there is a struggle between good/evil, God/Satan - whatever terms you choose then what is "permitted" --the struggle itself, outcome or both? If it is the outcome that is being permitted, why bother with the struggle? If doubts can be seen as a struggle like this, then what is the point--why nit just "wait and see" what the outcome is?
Maybe I am not asking the right question again or applying logic where none exists. That problem seems to be getting worse. I know I have many questions but can't figure out what they are most of the time.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Oct 15th, 2006 02:45 pm |
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Let’s see. It’s Kate, isn’t it? I try to remember, but my head is filled with many things these days.
I think I partially answered your first question the other day in a reply to someone else. And the same fundamental argument would apply to your other questions.
Your problem, as I see it, is the question of “impossible concepts.” Divine predestination, as understood by the Catholic Church, is not the same as fate, predetermination or determinism, and it does not impinge on human or angelic free will or their agency as secondary (created) causes. When we say, “in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28; see context), this does not bind either God or us to non-action. For God “works,” and is not idle, as the text clearly states; and we in turn must respond and act in cooperation with the divine governance to receive the benefit of his work.
What “eternal” and “unchanging” refer to is the fact that God is perfect and resides in eternity, where change in the spacial-temporal-composition sense is incomprehensible. In other words, it does not mean “unchanging” as in “static” or “frozen,” but that our time-bound vocabulary is inadequate to express a perfect dynamism (“pure act”) outside the context of time.
The practical consequence of this is that, from our human perspective, it does often seem that God “changes,” because in a very real sense he does respond to our prayers. For this reason, he tells us through his Son, “Ask and it shall be given to you” (Matthew 7:7). Not that we will always receive what we want, but that if we make the effort to pursue God’s will, over time we will be given the grace to discern and desire that will, so that eventually, everything we ask for will, in fact, be given just because it is God’s will. But as he has determined from the beginning, there are indeed certain things that God will give us even if we do not ask aright. And in this case we shall also see the consequences of our misdirected will, which are for our instruction.
In Providence, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange wrote:Sometimes God seems to turn a deaf ear to our prayer, especially when it is not sufficiently free from self-interest, seeking temporal blessings for their own sake rather than as useful for salvation. Then gradually grace invites us to pray better, reminding us of the Gospel words: “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His justice: and all these things shall be added unto you” (Matthew 6:33).
So then, you ask, what is “permitted”? What you see. It depends on his will in each case. Then why not just “wait and see”? Indeed, why not? Are not doubts always resolved in this way? “By their fruits you shall know them.”
If you are prompted to pray, is not that prayer willed by God? Is it not his grace that does the prompting? In fact, as Garrigou-Lagrange further states (op. cit.):
True prayer, prayer offered with the requisite conditions, is infallibly efficacious because God has decreed that it shall be so, and God cannot revoke what He has once decreed.… Providence, for instance, has determined from all eternity that there shall be no harvest without the sowing of seed, no family life without certain virtues, no social life without authority and obedience, no knowledge without mental effort, no interior life without prayer, no redemption without a Redeemer, no salvation without the application of His merits and, in the adult, a sincere desire to obtain that salvation.… Hence, far from being opposed to the efficacy of prayer, the unchangeableness of God is the ultimate guaranty of that efficacy.
Is this making sense to you? If not, I invite you to pray over it. 
David
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Luke12:48
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Oct 18th, 2006 08:23 pm |
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Yes, your head must be full of many things. I don't know how you keep all the sources and quotes straight! I am forever reading something and then later hunting around to find something "I know I read somewhere" It seems to get worse as I get older :-)
All of your reply makes sense and your suggestion is most appropriate for my question but I guess the key is "requisite conditions" rather than the prayer of please give me or let me have....
However, (and it seems there is always one with me) you say or rather [size=Garrigou-Lagrange says "][size=God cannot revoke what He has once decreed.…] " I am assuming there is a scriptural basis for this statment. Can you tell me where or better yet, how I would find it on my own. Other than a thorough knowledge of each book, chapter and verse, is there a way to look up key words or something similar? I feel like I should be able to find these things.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Oct 19th, 2006 03:11 am |
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Garrigou-Lagrange says, "God cannot revoke what He has once decreed.…" I am assuming there is a scriptural basis for this statment. Can you tell me where or better yet, how I would find it on my own.
One place you might look: Numbers 23:19. There are others, but it is late and I am tired. It’s been a long, hard day at work.
In scripture, whenever God is said to “repent” or “change his mind,” it is not God who has changed, but man. God’s wrath or approval is contingent on a continuance of the current state of affairs with man. So if the situation changes, so do the results. But this is a character of creation, not of God.
Like you, I only know what I can look up. In finding things, whether in scripture or other reference works, I have to admit I “cheat” a little. I have built a searchable database on my computer which contains a number of valuable resources, such as several versions of the bible, biblical commentaries, the Catechism and the Compendium of the Catechism, the Summa Theologica, the documents of several ecumenical councils, etc. Yes, I even have searchable versions of a number of Garrigou-Lagrange’s works.
All I usually need is an educated guess at what I am looking for. I apply a little boolean search logic, sometimes invoking the database’s built-in artificial intelligence to redirect me when I need a wider search, and I nearly always find something usable in a matter of minutes.
David
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SBC2RCC
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | York, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 136 |
| First Name: | Monte | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | was Southern Baptist Minister, now Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Oct 19th, 2006 10:38 pm |
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Greetings in Christ,
(is it Kate?)
I followed this thread and agree with David's words. If I may, a few thoughts regarding prayer rose in light of your original question. But, these divert from the stream of thought you are pursuing. Whereas it would seem that what you are referring to is primarily the power or efficacy of prayer to bring about a change, as in receiving help or a request granted; what I wanted to raise was the issue of other values or approaches to prayer.
-- BTW, I find this link to be very helpful, it is a place to do a SEARCH of the CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
My experience as a new catholic, and what drew me into the Catholic church, was the practice of prayer
as adoration and contemplation. These do not involve anything other than drawing nearer to God, and any "change" is in me.
The issues around the nature of God and whether change is possible can bind us to a point where we feel a great distance from Him. Yet, even Jesus needed much time in prayer, and so do I, not just to ask for help, but to praise and adore and contemplate the one who deserves my highest devotion.
I hope this helps, and pardon the diversion from the main theme of the post.
____________________
In Christ,
Monte W
(Formerly on CHN Forum as "Pilgrim Paul"
Minima Maxima Sunt
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