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jsking1964
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| Joined: | Sat Dec 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 58 |
| First Name: | Benedict | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Basically I have been a Christian all my life, and ... |
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 05:59 am |
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Hi all,
I have started to watch The World Over and saw the Interview with Justice Clarence Thomas, and somewhere in the conversation with Raymond Arroyo, the reference was made to alter boys and how the next progression is the Preisthood. In light of the title of Decon that was explained to me earlier, I am wondering if there is a diffrence between the two and also if the practice of alter boys is still being used especially in light of the wayward preist who have gone bad.
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Your friend in Christ, +
JS Benedict
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemed. Mark 16:16
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 02:51 pm |
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At one time there were eight "orders" on the path to ordination, the last being priest. Today, four of them have been supressed in the Latin Rite, and four remain.
The process of being accepted into the first two orders is called "institution", while the last two are called "ordination".
The first is Lector. An instituted Lector carries the Book of the Gospels in procession, and proclaims the Word of God at mass, except for the Gospel. In the absence of an instituted Lector, a lay person may fill the ministry.
The second is Acolyte. An instituted Acolyte carries the cross, candles, or incense in procession, prepares the altar, and assists the priest or deacon by bringing the water and wine to the altar, bringing the pitcher, bowl, and towel to wash his hands, etc. In the absense of an instituted Acolyte, a lay person may fill the ministry. These are generally called "altar servers". The term "altar boy" may be used if the server is male, or "altar girl" if female. There is no age limit for an altar server. An Acolyte is also an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion by office rather than by deputation. In other words, if he moves from one parish to another he does not have to be reappointed and reapproved.
Instituted ministers take precedence over appointed lay minsters, so if an instituted Lector is present he should read, and an instituted Acolyte should distribute Holy Communion in preference to an appointed EMHC. Deacons and Priests are "clergy"; Lectors and Acolytes are not, and they are not entitled to wear clerical garb or Roman collars. They may wear albs when serving on the altar but do not wear stoles.
Only men may be admitted to the instituted orders since they are in fact steps in progression to the priesthood. Women may serve as lay ministries of reader and altar server.
The third is "deacon" and the fourth is "priest" which I explained in the other thread. Deacons and priests wear stoles as a sign of their ministry. In addition, a priest wears a chasuble when presiding at mass, and a deacon may wear a dalmatic.
So while it is correct to say that "acolyte" is a step on the path to priestly ordination, it is not necessarily so. Altar servers (male or female) may serve at the altar, and men who are not on the path to ordination may be instituted to the ministry of acolyte.
I was instituted to the ministry of Acolyte more than 20 years ago as a recognition of my dedication to service at the altar, and will be serving later today when our current bishop visits our parish. I have not been instituted to the ministry of Lector, nor have I ever been ordained.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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setapart
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 237 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 05:38 pm |
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Great explanation, Rick - may you be blessed as you serve later today.
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 341 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008 04:09 pm |
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So when I see an adult acting as an altar server does that mean they are likely an acolyte?
Only twice have I seen this happen, both were men. One was a man helping with the incense, etc, as well as doing all the usual altar sever stuff. The second was when no altar server showed up and the man hopped up from the congregation to help the priest wash his hands and so forth.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008 04:27 pm |
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mrsbmoo wrote: So when I see an adult acting as an altar server does that mean they are likely an acolyte?
Not necessarily. There is no age restriction on altar servers so anyone of any age may serve at the altar. The two cathedrals in my diocese both have adult altar servers who serve along with the kids. They are primarily retired men who are available to serve on weekdays for weddings and funerals.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 599 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Mon Feb 4th, 2008 10:24 am |
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We have several men who serve the Altar with their sons. In our Divine Liturgy though, it takes at least 8 servers to have the full complement of servers, so the fathers are a blessing for 'order'  they kind of keep the kids focused too.
For my husband, though the discussion of deacon had come long before his serving with our sons at the Altar when they were servers, it seems it was a natural progression to his diaconate. Now it is nice to see our sons - who are 23 and 32 - come and serve with their dad at the Altar. God has a sence of humor!
The Eastern Churches still have and use the 'minor orders'.
Last edited on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 10:26 am by Pani Rose
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Feb 4th, 2008 11:33 am |
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Pani Rose wrote: We have several men who serve the Altar with their sons.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, Rose, but I don't believe women are allowed in altar ministries in the Eastern Churches, including Altar Servers, and Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are not allowed either. Are there lay readers and may women serve that function? May women be cantors?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mg57
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 210 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Feb 4th, 2008 04:03 pm |
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jasking 1964 -
You wrote -
"and also if the practice of alter boys is still being used especially in light of the wayward preist who have gone bad."
The use of altar servers is still the norm. We're fortunate to have many parents in parishes across the country voluntarily bringing their children to serve for Sunday and even daily Masses, weddings and funerals.
Many of these parents also volunteer to assist in training, scheduling, laundering and tailoring cassocks etc., ....
It's unfortunate that the general impression outside of the Catholic community is quite different from what our first hand experience is within the Church.
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 599 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 03:02 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Pani Rose wrote: We have several men who serve the Altar with their sons.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, Rose, but I don't believe women are allowed in altar ministries in the Eastern Churches, including Altar Servers, and Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are not allowed either. Are there lay readers and may women serve that function? May women be cantors?
You are correct. There are to be no female Altar Servers.
However, there are a few chuches which do allow girls as Altar Servers - but they are the exception - an error which is being corrected. These happen to be parishes that are very 'latinized'.
Only the priest and deacons are allowed to give Holy Communion, no one else can touch it. Also, it is given under both speicies at once. Depending on the Rite, it is either done by the all the particles being placed into the chalIce, and given with a spoon. Or, the Eucharist is cut into long strips and each one individually dipped(I know that isn't the right word ) into the Blood, then given. Similar to when the Roman priest gives Communion by dipping the Body into the Blood, and placing it on the tongue. Communion is never received in the hand. Also, we approach with our hand folded in a cross across our chest, showing that we are servants of God.
The prayer that is prayed by the priest or deacon for the Communicate is something like this...Servent/Handmaid (person's name) of God, receives the Body and Blood of Christ, for the remission of his sins and life everlasting. If they were doing it together - the priest giving the Communion while the deacon holds the chalice for him - the priest would say the first part of the prayer and the deacon the second part.
Even the sacred vessels cannot be touched by someone else, unless the priest or deacon tell that person to specifically to do so. If there is any Precious Blood or Body left after Communion, it will be comsumed by the deacon or priest. Also, if a crumb somehow falls to the floor, no one may pick it up but the priest or deacon.
My husband assisted in a Divine Liturgy given at the request of a Roman Catholic bishop (not our diocese) in a Roman Catholic Church. Afterwards my husband was consuming, and the deacon's wives came up and wanted to help. They were rather dismayed when he told them thank you, but no, that they were not allowed. Actually it took a good bit of explaining, so they were no longer upset. It is often hard to clarify these seemingly minor differences for people, that to a particular Rite are very important.
Women are not allowed behind the iconostasis. The exception to that would be an elderly widow (one past mensis) that might clean the church. That should be the only time a woman is there.
There are no women that I am aware of that are set aside as Readers. Now there are some churches who have choirs, that again depends on the Rite - it is more common in Eastern European Rites than the Middle Eastern or Asian Rites. For example in our church we have Readers only, with other men who join in and having done so for years, but were never set aside. Yet churches in neighboring states have choirs, with men and women. Now the Marionite Church two blocks away, has a choir. In the Byzantine Churches we do not have any instruments, but the Marionte Church does. Everything in the Byzantine Rite is sung acapella.
So we are all Catholic - it is just we have big 'T' and little 't' traditions - depending on nationality and customs - that is what makes us Catholic&Universal. We agree on so much more 'T' than we disagree on 't'. GLORY TO GOD!
Last edited on Tue Feb 5th, 2008 03:10 am by Pani Rose
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 02:41 pm |
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Pani Rose wrote: Only the priest and deacons are allowed to give Holy Communion, no one else can touch it. Also, it is given under both speicies at once. Depending on the Rite, it is either done by the all the particles being placed into the chalIce, and given with a spoon.
A golden spoon, BTW...
Or, the Eucharist is cut into long strips and each one individually dipped(I know that isn't the right word ) into the Blood, then given. Similar to when the Roman priest gives Communion by dipping the Body into the Blood, and placing it on the tongue.
It's known as intinction, and I believe the term is used in both east and west.
Communion is never received in the hand.
Which is certainly appropriate for the Body and Blood together. An intincted host ma not be received in the hand either.
The prayer that is prayed by the priest or deacon for the Communicate is something like this...Servent/Handmaid (person's name) of God, receives the Body and Blood of Christ, for the remission of his sins and life everlasting. If they were doing it together - the priest giving the Communion while the deacon holds the chalice for him - the priest would say the first part of the prayer and the deacon the second part.
I found this interesting. As a Latin Rite Catholic, I communicated in advance with a deacon at a Byzantine church I was planning to attend, and he was kind enough to meet me before the liturgy, and he explained that as I came forward, I was to give my baptismal name to the priest.
In the west, crossed arms typically indicate that a person is not receiving communion but seeks a blessing.
It is often hard to clarify these seemingly minor differences for people, that to a particular Rite are very important.
I find it fascinating and immensely enriching that we have so many differences in custom in our Church and yet one faith!
Women are not allowed behind the iconostasis.
For others benefit, the "iconostatis" is a wall of icons which separates the sanctuary from the congregation. Only the altar ministers may enter the sanctuary and only for the offering and consecration of the gifts. The congregation may view what is happening on the altar through the "great door" which only the priest may enter. Other ministers enter through side doors.
ByzCath has a great collection of videos available explaining some of the differences between eastern and western Catholics here. They should be mandatory viewing for every Catholic.
A description of Byzantine Catholics and a description of their worship space is available here.
Did I get that right?? 
So we are all Catholic - it is just we have big 'T' and little 't' traditions - depending on nationality and customs - that is what makes us Catholic&Universal. We agree on so much more 'T' than we disagree on 't'. GLORY TO GOD! And the 't' is not really disagreement, but differences in practice, which occur everywhere in life. After all, some people put fruit on their king cake!!!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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