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heardclarke Member

| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 10:19 pm |
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I am trying to be a good Catholic parent. I was brought up Protestant and spanking was a fact of life at our house--but only for deliberate disobedience or disrespect. Lying, stealing, fighting, disrespectful back talk--that kind of thing.
I spank my kids (8 and 9) for the same kind of behavior for which I was spanked. Would anyone like to share any thoughts about this? Don't be shy. I want some guidance and I trust you guys. My parents were, in my opinion, too ready to spank, but I think some behavior demands serious punishment.
Lisa
____________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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CajunRick Network Helper

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 12:50 am |
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heardclarke wrote: I want some guidance and I trust you guys.
I spanked my daughter once -- one swat -- and it broke my heart. I could never do it again, and never did. It might have been different if I had not been angry when I did it, or if she had not cringed in fear the next time she saw me angry. She will be 30 this year, and I still regret doing it. She was about 4, and she doesn't even remember the incident. I can still see the look on her face.
I was spanked as a child, and it never made me change my behavior. It did make me try harder not to get caught. It also made me less likely to talk to my parents about misbehaviors, and more likely to lie when I was caught. I was a good kid and never got into real trouble, so I don't want to make it sound like a constant happening, because it wasn't, and I never got anything I didn't deserve.
So I suppose I consider it like the death penalty -- I support it in principle, but I can't imagine a case where I would ever want to actually impose it.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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heardclarke Member

| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 02:37 am |
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Thanks for answering....I am curious, what did you do when your child(ren) really misbehaved?
The worst problem we have right now is my daughter (9 1/2) hurting my son (8). He has ADHD and can be really annoying, but he doesn't push, pinch or bite. When she's had enough, she does do those things.:X
When he takes his medication, on school days, he is a lot less provocative, but she still resents him. She will put him down and get mad at him even when he hasn't done anything. This makes him cry. 
It is typical for ADD kids to be very sensitive and yet oblivious to the behaviors they do which annoy others (interrupting, fidgeting, etc.):?
I am thinking about structuring their time at home so that they are separated more, like doing homework and chores separately. Do you have any other suggestions?
Lisa
____________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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CajunRick Network Helper

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 02:55 am |
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heardclarke wrote: what did you do when your child(ren) really misbehaved?
The worst thing my daughter ever did was steal an ink pen at a store. She got caught by the manager. She had to apologize, of course, but I gave her a choice. Either she was grounded for a month, or she was grounded for a week and had to tell her grandmother herself. She took the month, and had to endure it with no complaints. I kept my part of the bargain and never told her grandmother.
I am no expert. My daughter was an only child, and the only kid to ever make it through her middle school with an empty discipline folder. Her last day there the teachers played a trick on her and called her to the vice-principal's office all the way across the campus, and every teacher stood in the hall frowning and shaking their heads at her like she was really in trouble. They made her sit a half an hour in the office before he called her in and gave her a certificate. So I'm not the one to ask how to handle a child who needs discipline.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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heardclarke Member

| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 03:35 am |
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I still appreciate what you have said. My children seem to have a certain amount of rivalry going on. I can well believe that as an only child, my daughter would behave very differently; in fact, when separated from her brother at school, she's a model student.
On the other hand, my son has trouble both at school and at home; but he isn't mean. He is impulsive and cannot sit still or be quiet without his medication. But I don't punish him for that; the fact that the meds help so dramatically proves to me that he doesn't mean to break the rules. When he is capable of behaving, he does it.
I also have ADD, and take medication, and this helps me understand what it's like for my son. My daughter and my husband apparently do not have it and they both get really irritated with us for being late/disorganized/talkative.
The best help I have found is friends who are encouraging, especially at school. The sacraments of reconciliation and the eucharist are absolutely necessary for me on a regular basis....I can't believe how long I survived without them before joining the Church. I think my son feels the same way. He actually says that he loves going to Mass (I have required it every week regardless!)
____________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Intercessor Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 05:16 am |
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Lisa,
For what it's worth, here's an observation. Within the family unit the parents should be united. If there are two teams, one team should be the parents; the other team should be the children. This is critically important when it comes to discipline.
As you describe your situation right now, it sounds as if your husband and daughter are one team while you and your son are the other team. Each parent appears to be identifying with and sympathizing with the similar child. Eventually, this could have a negative impact on the marriage, as well as on the children.
It might be helpful to arrange for the four of you to have a few sessions with an objective party (a family counselor) who can listen to all four of you and then coach you and your husband in how to form a united team as parents, each of whom is responsive to the needs of both children. You might be surprised by the helpfulness of giving each of the children a sympathetic adult to hear their perspectives and to guide them toward a more tolerable relationship with other members of the family. The four of you could begin reaping big benefits.
As for corporal punishment—
Children are very different. For a few, a mild spanking can be kinder than other sorts of punishments. For other children, physical punishment is too much of an assault to personal dignity and should never be used. I spanked my students in the early years of my career only when other punishments, like suspensions, failed to get results. There were some boys who were thrilled to receive a "three day vacation" from school. I spanked my son when he was young. However, my husband and I agreed that children older than seven were too old to be spanked. Even at six and seven, it should be very rare, I think, since removal of privileges is an effective response to misbehavior. If there is anything else that works with a particular child, spanking should probably be removed from the list of options. (comments from a not-at-all-perfect parent)
____________________ "The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Ali Member

| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 10:44 am |
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heardclarke wrote: The worst problem we have right now is my daughter (9 1/2) hurting my son (8). He has ADHD and can be really annoying, but he doesn't push, pinch or bite. When she's had enough, she does do those things.:X
So by hitting her you are teaching her that it's ok for you to physically hurt a smaller person who cannot defend themselves, but it's not ok for her to do the same. (Yes, that is a loaded statement and I know it).
I have hit my children. I do not think it works. I could actually see a change in my dd for the worse when I regularly hit her. As for my spirited boy, it changes his behavior not one iota.
Personally, I could never ever see an instance when Jesus would strike another person. Did Mary or Joseph hit Jesus when he was little? I can't imagine so in either instance.
This is a hot topic issue, and I do have pretty strong opinions in this area. But I have to leave for work right now. And since this is a religious website, I can't access it there. So don't let this thread explode while I'm gone, ok? LOL
All my best,
Ali
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heardclarke Member

| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 11:47 am |
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I won't let it explode...:?
I have heard the (very reasonable) statement before that spanking reinforces hitting. In fact that was what led me to ask y'all for advice.
I also agree that at times it looks like my husband and daughter are on one team and me and my son are on another. Those times are becoming less frequent, probably because he doesn't like her behavior either, doesn't feel spanking is off-limits (but does not do it) and he has been spending more time with our son. They do things together like making models.
I am thinking about the suggestion of taking away priveleges. There aren't many priveleges to take away. I'll have to give that some more thought. There is TV but anytime Dad is home he wants it on. Maybe I could put it on a "boring" channel. This week he'll be out of town so that could work temporarily. But it is not a reliable option.
I think I have an idea. I am going to ask my husband to talk to the kids (like a family meeting) before he leaves town. Today at lunch might be a good time, if it is just the four of us, and if we have lunch together. He works on Sundays. That reminds me, we don't eat together but about 4 times a week. Even at those times a family friend may be there, so we don't address these issues then of course. I need to think about that too. The kids love going to dinner with this one friend, and he'll understand if I treat that as a privelege to be earned. 
Regarding consequences for bad behavior, I think I might use a conduct list/chart like we do at school to record the behavior before giving a consequence. That at least spells out what is expected (each rule is written as a goal for correct behavior rather than a "don't") and we will have a visual record of any patterns. This week is a good time to start because my daughter isn't going to want her dad (or our friend) to know her "sins". It also makes the whole problem more objective rather than me just getting mad at her.
Well, please let me know what you think about this idea. I have to get the troops up for church now. Thanks for "listening."
Lisa
____________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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BodRod Member

| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 12:50 pm |
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Either she was grounded for a month, or she was grounded for a week and had to tell her grandmother herself. She took the month, and had to endure it with no complaints. I kept my part of the bargain and never told her grandmother.
What did her grandmother have to do with it? Why was she brought into the situation?
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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heardclarke Member

| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 01:07 pm |
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BodRod,
I am guessing it is the same as my daughter's not wanting her dad or our friend (sort of an unofficial godparent) to know what she does wrong.
When I mentioned the conduct paper idea, and showing it to dad, this morning -- that seemed to get her attention. Her dad is gone a lot at night and on the weekend and this would mean she would have him to deal with, should she slip up. He is in the habit of trying to just have fun with the kids when he does have time with them. (A natural tendency when he's away so much, but it does kind of force me to be the "bad cop"!)
Lisa
____________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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CajunRick Network Helper

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 01:29 pm |
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Ali wrote: So don't let this thread explode while I'm gone, ok? LOL
I promise, Ali, if we let this thread explode, we'll wait for your return. 
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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CajunRick Network Helper

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 01:34 pm |
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BodRod wrote: Either she was grounded for a month, or she was grounded for a week and had to tell her grandmother herself. She took the month, and had to endure it with no complaints. I kept my part of the bargain and never told her grandmother.
What did her grandmother have to do with it? Why was she brought into the situation?
We live next door and her grandmother (to this day) believes she walks on water. It would have broken her grandmother's heart, and she knew it. Instead, since she was grounded, she could not make her daily visits and every time she did see her, her guilt returned. It reinforced in her mind the fact that she had done something wrong and in the process, hurt the people she loves the most.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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kimdyuma Member

| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 06:00 pm |
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| when my kids were younger I had one that went though a whiny period- drove ME round the bend. We weren't into spanking- I came from a family that went WAY overboard in that dept. and DH came from a family that really didn't use corporal punishment. When they were younger they did get the odd whack on the backside but not a real spanking per se. During the whiney time I got a book from the library called 123 magic and it was. It sounds simplistic when you first read the book and I have had friends pooh pooh it but if you follow the guidelines WITHOUT fail no matter how inconvenient for YOU it works like magic. We have been lucky though with very few outright disipline problems. My upbringing would have been considered abusive even for the times but it never made us "good" kids- we just learned how to protect our heads and stomaches. My daughter from 2 to 3.5 yrs old had horrendous temper tantrums, all the family was predicting a monter but during that 4th year she turned into the sweetest kid and is easygoing and slow to anger today so go figure...
____________________ Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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heardclarke Member

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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 06:32 pm |
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I will look for that book. Thanks.
____________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Ali Member

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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 12:14 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: Ali wrote: So don't let this thread explode while I'm gone, ok? LOL
I promise, Ali, if we let this thread explode, we'll wait for your return. 
Oh, and here I am a bit disappointed no one came and argued for spanking. :? LOL
Here are a few links that might be helpful for you
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/
http://aolff.com/
http://goybparenting.com/
They are all Christian sites, but not specifically Catholic Christian, so if you read any of those articles, there will be a different religion flavor 
And some books I see recommended all the time for parents. Keep in mind, I haven't read any of these, so this isn't a personal recomendation, just what has seemed to help other families.
Siblings Without Rivalry
How to Talk So Kids will Listen
Raising Your Spirited Child People really seem to like anything by this author.
Amazon also had that 123 Magic book that Kim mentioned.
(IMO, Just stay away from anything Dobson or Ezzo, Ack!!)
For us, I have found that active, consistant parenting on my part works the best. Which means I can't yell from the couch into the next room "Quit yer fightin'!" I have to actually get up off my butt, walk into the next room and take an active roll in listening and caring. I am an introvert, it can be hard for me to care. I just want to be left alone. {sigh} Unfortunately, parenting is not about what is best for me. It's about what is best for my kids.
My dh likes to threaten. LOL Like "if you don't get to bed right now you won't watch TV tomorrow!" Uh, yeah. For one thing, he isn't home to follow through, and that is more of a punishment for *me* than the kid! hehehehe Threatening is what happens when we fall into laziness around here. Again, we have to get up and take an active roll.
IRT removing priveliges, like I said above, more of a punishment for me. We never grounded our older son, who is 19. Uh, no. There is no way I want to be stuck in the house with a moody teenager to begin with. Let alone one who is in a worse mood because he made sucky choices. My little guy (who is going to be 7 in a couple weeks, wow!) lives for TV & Computer time. I am not taking that away, cause if I do, chances are he is going to act worse during his special times and be even more whiney than usual.
I believe in natural consequences. They can make their own decisions, then live with the consequences. It has really removed a lot of the power struggle out of our parenting. I don't fight with my kids to wear coats. They don't want to? {shrug} Fine with me, but you will be cold, so don't complain when you are. Small battles are not important, I'm not interested in winning the war, so to speak. If Q wants to use up all his TV & computer time up by lunch. Fine by me, but you won't have any left this afternoon. If you don't get your room cleaned up, we can't go to the library. If I need to do something because you didn't, then that takes aways time from reading or game play, the child is losing out on something they enjoy. It puts the responsibility back on the child to get their stuff done.
One thing that "experts" tend to point out, is that it will probably get worse before it gets better. When you change paths on your journey you will be me with testings and reservations. The kids will push you to see how much they can do before you lose it again. It will take longer than a couple weeks, it could take six months or so before they finally get it and it all falls into place.
I cannot speak to your situation of your dd wanting to hurt her brother. I do think the Sibling w/o Rivalies book will be helpful with that. Check your library! {{hugs}} I hope things begin to work out for you and your family.
Feel free to pm me if you want 
Ali
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Kayla Member

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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 12:27 pm |
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Hmm.
Here's a bit of different perspective, I guess.
When I was little, I was spanked if I did something naughty. Not hard, but enough to leave a sting. It wasn't the pain that was the real punishment, though. I would start crying before I got spanked. It was the fact that I knew I had disappointed my parents. The day that I stopped crying before and during the spanking was the day that my parents stopped using it as a punishment. They didn't do it for the 'pain' of it, either. They knew why I feared it and that's the only reason they used it.
Personally... I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It really depends on the child. I know that isn't much help, but... Like others have said, taking away priveledges is always good, but at young ages, kids don't have a lot of priveledges that can be taken away.
I guess the real thing is to find out what means most to your child, or means a lot to them. For me, just disappointing my parents was enough punishment. For Rick's daughter, it was her grandmother. For some kids, it's the tv, the horse lessons, the sports, playing with other children...
It all just really depends on the kid, I think.
____________________ I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
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heardclarke Member

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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 04:34 pm |
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Thanks Kayla (and others!)
I will check out "Siblings without Rivalry" and not beat myself up over the spankings but we will really try other consequences first. Unfortunately my daughter doesn't cry about the spankings the way you describe, though I did react that way as a kid myself.
We did start today using the chart with our goals and it was helpful for them to know WHEN they were supposed to be dressed, packed for school, done with homework, etc. and to have these things listed so as not to forget any. We'll see how it goes from now on.
Lisa
____________________ Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 09:20 pm |
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My opinion on spanking is a lot like Becky's and Kayla's expressed above. We have spanked our four children in the very young years, from age two to about six, when it is an effective means to get them to behave. After that we try to use deprivation (for the older kids, of their youth group meetings) or "penances" of doing the dishes and so forth. There are ways to set up these things in terms of positive reinforcement (see a helpful article on that).
Sometimes, there is nothing like a swat, as an immediate punishment for serious offenses. If, e.g., one of my children, when at this early age, talked back to my wife in a nasty, rebellious way, on many occasions, I have swatted them immediately, with my hand.
Almost always, after such a spanking, I will take the child on my lap in a loving, nurturing manner and tell them I love them, and that this was the reason they were spanked. I'll ask them to repeat why they think they were spanked, and if they don't know (or pretend to not know; parents know this routine!), then I carefully explain it to them and teach them that such discipline is to make them a better person, by preventing them from doing bad and sinful things that will make their life difficult in the future. So the act is grounded in love and expanation and, in the end, positive reinforcement.
I can only remember one occasion that I regretted spanking one of my children, because I was a little too angry and overreacted to a relatively minor offense (loss of temper being quite a rare thing for me). I believe I apologized to my son for that one. The older they get, the more a "positive reinforcement" works. Honey rather than vinegar, etc.
I would counsel parents who were physically abused when they were young, to avoid spanking, because of the statistical probability for abuse being repeated. Also, those who are prone to a quick temper and out-of-proportion angry reactions should avoid it and find other means to discipline. That is because the deficiency is in them, not in the very notion of spanking. On this issue as with many others, people often throw the baby out with the bathwater and get legalistic: because there are abuses they throw away the thing itself.
Lastly, it is, I think, beyond argument that the Bible itself condones spanking. If it does (being divine revelation), we cannot condemn it simply because we may not like the idea. Parents may choose not to use it, but they'll need to have some very serious disciplinary substitutes if so.
Some biblical passages on this (RSV):
Proverbs 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod you will save his life from Sheol.
Proverbs 29:15,17 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. . . . Discipline your son, and he will give you rest; he will give delight to your heart.
Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 30:1,12-13 He who loves his son will whip him often, in order that he may rejoice at the way he turns out . . . Bow down his neck in his youth, and beat his sides while he is young, lest he become stubborn and disobey you, and you have sorrow of soul from him. Discipline your son and take pains with him, that you may not be offended by his shamelessness.
Many Christian family and parenting groups favor spanking in the right circumstances. For example, Dr. James Dobson and Focus on the Family:
Spanking can be a valuable disciplinary tool — if it is administered appropriately. It is essential to always balance firmness with loving sensitivity. Indeed, spanking is not appropriate for every child or at every age, and is unnecessary in many situations. For example, willful disobedience or defiance of authority might warrant corporal punishment, while mere childish irresponsibility does not. When spankings are properly managed, there is no reason to fear they will produce harmful emotional or psychological effects in children.
On another FOTF page, it is stated:
Spanking typically works best with ages 2 to 6. It should be used only for specific, purposeful misbehavior and should never be done in anger. As with other techniques, spanking should be used as one of many discipline tools.
And another:
On what part of the body would you administer a spanking?
It should be confined to the buttocks area, where permanent damage is very unlikely. I don't believe in slapping a child on the face or in jerking him around by the arms. A common form of injury seen in the emergency room at Children's Hospital when I was on the attending staff involved children with shoulder separations. Parents had pulled tiny arms angrily and dislocated the shoulder or elbow. If you spank a child only on the behind, you will be less likely to inflict any physical injury on him.
Christian Parents' Network takes the same position:
In this case, since your kids are older, you can come up with a list of punishable offenses which merit spanking and review the list together with your children. The list should include defiance, sassing, and disobedience. Children should not be spanked for simple forgetfulness, clumsy actions such as spilt milk, ect. Spanking should be used primarily as a remedy for defiance, direct disobedience, and bad attitude towards parental authority. . . .
It is really sad and unfortunate in this day of undisciplined children that the positive act of spanking is subject to be be misinterpreted, by the ignorant and misinformed, to be child abuse. It's a sad society that can't tell the difference between a legitimate act of discipline and real child abuse. This is the growing effect of Biblical illiteracy and of television and media coverage of the ideas of the small but outspoken spanking opponents. The media frequently interviews self-appointed social experts who have the hidden agenda of criminalizing spanking.
Catholic family advocate Steve Wood also does not deny spanking a place in discipline. Note that he casually assumes it is part of discipline in the following remark:
Most people immediately picture the rod when they think of the tool for discipline. They also regard the rear-end as the part of the human anatomy on which to focus discipline efforts. If the only discipline you engage in is spanking then you are neglecting 75% of what the Bible calls discipline.
Your word is the primary tool for training and discipline and the ear is the part of your child's anatomy that you want to focus efforts towards.
Dr. Ray Guarendi is another superb Catholic family advocate and counselor (who has adopted ten children). He takes the same position. In a review of his audio series Raising Kids Right, it is stated:
Episode 9: Spanking. My girls are all too old to spank now, but had I listened to this episode earlier some difficult situations today may have been avoided. We have to be careful not to let anger control or motivate spanking. Done in a loving environment, and used sparingly, spanking sounds like a good alternative for younger children.
Listen to an audio tape of Dr. Ray explaining his position.
Catholic Leon Suprenant writes:
I think the crucial issue is that the spanking not be merely an expression of anger or frustration. Sounds obvious, but in the heat of misbehavior this is easier said than done.
If it's purposeful and done as a means of correction it's a time-tested, biblically approved means of discipline. It should be reserved only for significant issues, such as direct disobedience. It's about children's misbehavior having consequences, so for spanking to work it must be unmistakably clear to the child why he or she is being spanked, so that the right lessons are communicated.
The Catechism (#2223) approvingly cites Sirach 30:1-2, in the following translation:
He who loves his sons will not spare the rod . . . He who disciplines his son will profit by him.
Social science is catching up with what the Bible always knew to be true. A 2007 scientific study by the American College of Pediatricians concluded:
It is clear that parents should not solely rely upon disciplinary spanking to accomplish control of their child’s behavior. Evidence suggests that it can be a useful and necessary part of a successful disciplinary plan. Like any corrective measure, its application requires a proactive rather than reactive approach to produce an optimal outcome. Disciplinary spanking is most beneficial and necessary during the ages 2 to 6 years when reasoning alone is often ineffective and even counterproductive in managing behavior. With cognitive development, a child will more likely respond to reasoning and less assertive corrective methods, such as privilege removal and logical consequences, thereby diminishing any need for spanking.
When advising parents on child discipline, pediatricians should emphasize the importance of balancing correction with encouragement. The parent-child relationship is pivotal in determining the success of any disciplinary measure. The selective use of disciplinary spanking with young children can be useful component of the disciplinary process. See also the Scientific Review of use of corporal punishment, that includes 81 footnotes to many further scientific studies.
For another extremely in-depth article on this matter, see: The Problem of Spanking and Childhood Discipline, by Richard W. Cross (a Catholic psychologist who has five children), reprinted at Catholic Educator's Resource Center.
Last edited on Mon Jan 14th, 2008 09:44 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 09:50 pm |
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Ali wrote:
Personally, I could never ever see an instance when Jesus would strike another person.
There are none that I am aware of, but then again, Jesus wasn't a parent, and so wouldn't be in this situation. He did, however, turn over the tables of the moneychangers at the Temple, didn't He (arguably an "act of violence" or at least physical "aggression")? Some people think this was even a sin, but they don't have an inkling about God's prerogative to judge.
Did Mary or Joseph hit Jesus when he was little? I can't imagine so in either instance.
They would have no need, since Jesus was without sin or even the inclination to sin (concupiscence): in fact, being God, He could not possibly sin: what is called the impeccability of Jesus. Therefore, there would be no occasion remotely requiring a possible spanking. 
But for a non-divine child, spanking at the appropriate time would have been perfectly in accord with biblical teaching on the subject, as I have shown. Joseph and Mary, as good, observant Jews, would have no trouble with the concept, I'm sure.
Last edited on Mon Jan 14th, 2008 09:52 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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heardclarke Member

| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 10:10 pm |
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| Thanks. We'll try to achieve a decent balance....I think the kids understand when and why a spanking will occur. But they are 8 and 9 now so perhaps we really need to come up with other consequences.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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