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brian
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 02:44 pm |
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Not sure where to post this. I thought maybe in penance, but that topic is in the sacramental forum. But my question is that I know we have lifted the no meat on Friday thing, but in its place is that we need to do some penitential act on Friday. I also no we may feel free to keep the no meat one if we like.
My question is that I go most days without eating any meat anyway. Not entirely, but many. So not eating meat does not feel like a sacrifice for me. I also offer certain prayers everyday which I would have a hard time considering penitential because I would do them anyway. I am struggling to know what would or would not qualify. I hate being so legalistic and to the letter, but if I just say one extra Our Father or something, I would not feel like it is enough. Should it be something I deny myself or a mortification I take on? Does anybody have anyn personal suggestions. Some ideas I have are to walk the stations of the cross or say the chaplet of Divine Mercy. Maybe no media or computer use? Maybe no desserts? Are these good enough? What would be some ideas?
Also, is it more a matter of offering a penitential act at some point of the day, or living an entirely penitential day. Like on good Friday I would really tone down anything exciting or fun. But on other fridays, is it more about taking a few minutes to remember, or is it about living the whole day? Like if I offer a penitential act should I feel free to have social fun and eat some nice foods and go to a party, or should I try to avoid those things and only do them when being polite? Is it a part of the day thing, or an entire day thing. Granted, I know it is better to offer our best than to ask the minimum, and I fdo want to offer my best, though I also want to avoid being too leagalistic or exacting.
Brian
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Annie
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 02:52 pm |
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In my opinion the meatless Fridays had to do with doing the bare minimum. It is obvious from your post you are doing much more than the bare minimum so if I were you I wouldn't worry about looking for something else to do. You are already doing so much. Just keep up the discipline that you have developed that brings you closer to the Lord and helps you serve Him better. Just my opinion.
I have a similar "problem." I pray the Liturgy of the Hours, (4-volume version except some of the "little hours"), etc. So much prayer and penance and adding too much to it can become unhealthy. Remember to maintain balance.
You have my permission to have a cheeseburger and fries today and say one extra "Hail, Mary" and you will be fine. Except for maybe the tummy ache!
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Annie
Ora et labora
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 02:58 pm |
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In promulgating the expansion of Friday penance to a wider scope of possibilities than no meat, the bishops of the United States stressed that no meat remains the primary way of handling the requirement of penance on Friday. Their suggestions for substitutions of penance were heavily weighted in favor of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy (feed the hungry, visit the sick, instruct the ignorant, admonish the sinner, etc.). This is what I would suggest to you.
As to whether one should devote the entire day to penance, this is a personal matter that should be taken up with one’s confessor or spiritual director. My observation is that most people living and participating in the world have too many responsibilities and too little fortitude to devote more than a portion of the day to special penances.
David
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brian
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 04:30 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: In promulgating the expansion of Friday penance to a wider scope of possibilities than no meat, they stressed that no meat remains the primary way of handling the requirement of penance on Friday. Their suggestions for substitutions of penance were heavily weighted in favor of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy (feed the hungry, visit the sick, instruct the ignorant, admonish the sinner, etc.). This is what I would suggest to you.
David
Hmm. well I hate to say my penitential act was to instruct the ignorant, because I hate to judge somebody else as ignorant. To what extent can I do this without judging someone. Is it ok to say, well this person may not be as far along as me spiritually so I will try to encourage or teach them something without being full of myself? Also, i hate to take something that came natural to me and make it into something to fulfill an obligation. However, I did write a few encouraging spiritual notes to some people I used to be in ministry with today. They needed some encouragement. Would this count? Would it count if I said that it is my penitential act retrospectively, or do I have to know at the time that I am considering it so? I am busy for the rest of the day so I would love to say that those letters were today's penitential act.
Also, since I still eat some meat occasionally (one or two days a week), do I need to do anything else besides not eat meat, or since that is technically what is recommended can I consider this meeting the penance? I would say not, because it really is not anything sacrifical for me or that I would have done anyway.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 05:14 pm |
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brian wrote: Hmm. well I hate to say my penitential act was to instruct the ignorant, because I hate to judge somebody else as ignorant.
Instructing the ignorant is a kindness. We are all ignorant of many things. A teacher instructs the ignorant on a daily basis.
The American Heritage Dictionary defines "ignorant" as:
- Lacking education or knowledge.
- Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: [color=""]an ignorant mistake.
- Unaware or uninformed.
I am ignorant of electrical engineering, auto mechanics, cooking, aeronautics, climatology, and more things than I care to mention. Even in areas where many would consider me an expert, I often feel ignorant in the presence of others. I constantly learn from David, and yet he tells me he appreciates my ability to communicate an idea in simple language. So we are both ignorant, and both instruct each other. The last person who was not ignorant of at least some things died on a cross and rose three days later.
"Illiterate" is another word that is often misunderstood. An illiterate person is one who has not learned something. If a person is "computer illiterate" it means they've never learned much about computers. It normally means a person never had the opportunity to learn to read.
Now if we call someone "stupid" or "incapable of learning" that is an entirely different thing. That's the insult. Calling them "ignorant" or "illiterate" merely recognizes that they still have much to learn. and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that we all have a lot to learn.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 07:58 pm |
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Sometimes I get a chuckle out of your posts, Brian. Like where you say you “want to avoid being too legalistic or exacting.” And here you are being legalistic and exacting to the max.
Now regarding the works of mercy, here is how the Catechism lays them out:2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God.
My previous post was using the older language, which seems to have tripped you up. You need not have hang-ups concerning “instructing, advising, consoling, comforting,” any more than you do over “forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently,” “feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead.” Even “giving alms to the poor” is bad-mouthed these days, because often the really poor are too proud to consider themselves poor, and those who are begging are rapscallions who just don’t want to work. But should that stop you from doing something for those who really need help?
However, I did write a few encouraging spiritual notes to some people I used to be in ministry with today. They needed some encouragement. Would this count?
Sure it would, just as my work on the forum counts, especially if I go out of my way to find just the right material to “instruct the ignorant” or spend some time dialoguing to “console the grieving.” Or some days, you know, I’m tired or don’t want to deal with somebody else’s problems because I have enough of my own. That’s when it becomes a real penance for me to obey my calling.
Do you have to make your intention ahead of time? To my way of thinking, one does that anyway, or he would not even begin to do these acts of charity. In other words, if you are thinking that you need to have the intention that such and such an act will “count” for your Friday penance, I see this as going too far. The act of self-forgetfulness inherent in the best of charitable deeds would preclude it.
Finally, since you are a partial abstainer from meat, I should think it a no-brainer for you to simply plan on Fridays being one of those days. It might be different if you were a total abstainer. (I know you see this differently. That’s why we’re discussing alternatives. And that’s fine, too.) Then if you also have a chance to do a work of charity, doing it whenever the occasion arises, Friday or not, would be doubly sweet.
I am not much of a believer in saying extra prayers for my penance, because while I have done this in the past myself, it really comes off as a “feat” rather than a penance. The whole idea of prayer is to prepare oneself for actually “doing the word” (cf. James 1:22).
What are you looking for in a penance? A hair shirt? Maybe what you really need is to have to spend your time with somebody who is obnoxious or petty. That can be a real penance, far better than a hair shirt, don’t you think?
David
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 09:51 am |
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God's peace. I am one who follows a fishy-Friday observance, finding that the chief penance is its thinning effect on my wallet . Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~Last edited on Sat May 26th, 2007 09:51 am by Br_Carlo
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 03:28 pm |
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Wow, Brian all I can say is, I'm glad I am not as introspective as you. And believe me, I can be introspective. I will not allow myself to be controlled by such scrupulosity. Been there, done that, in the cult.
When did this penance on Friday start and what is the point of it? Didn't Jesus say we should take up our cross DAILY and follow Him? This discipline seems to be an unnecessary, binding tradition that will only cause the Christian to live in scrupulosity. And for those who have a tendency to over examine themselves, resulting in self-condemnation, the enemy can have a field day with their minds. It is traditions like these which I often heard X-Catholics complain about and why they left the Catholic Church. They found themselves feeling as though they could never measure up, (which of course even as Protestants this is true), but felt they were then living under the judgment and scrutiny of their religious upbringing.
My point is that traditions like this can get carried away to the extreme, and they did during the Reformation. Thus it is traditions like this that cause non-Catholics to look at the Catholic Church as an institution that tries to control its members.
For freedom Christ has set us free, no longer to submit to the yoke of slavery.
Now I say all this, while still having a deep respect for the Catholic faith. But I do not ever want to be subject to traditions which have nothing to do with true spiritual worship. It think St. Paul said it better than I can in Colosians 2:20-23: "If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations, "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasment and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh."
Just my two cents.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Prodigal Daughter
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 10:12 pm |
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Brian,
Your post inspires me! You have such a tender heart that obviously desires to be obedient to Christ and to His Church. From what I read of the Saints, your attitude is the surest and quickest way to heaven.
Consider the words of Thomas A. Kempis who by the way was the favorite writer of St. Therese of Liseux (A Doctor of the Church.) It was her autobiography "The Story of a Soul," which first introduced me to the idea of redemptive suffering.
"No man is fit to enjoy heaven unless he has resigned himself to suffer hardship for Christ. Nothing is more acceptable to God, nothing more helpful for you on this earth than to suffer willingly for Christ. If you had to make a choice, you ought to wish rather to suffer for Christ than to enjoy many consolations, for thus you would be more like Christ and more like all the saints. Our merit and progress consist not in many pleasures and comforts but rather in enduring great afflictions and sufferings.
If, indeed, there were anything better or more useful for man’s salvation than suffering, Christ would have shown it by word and example. But He clearly exhorts the disciples who follow Him and all who wish to follow Him to carry the cross, saying: “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.” Thomas A. Kempis
So Brian, I applaud you because to me your attitude is like that of the Saints who desired to do penance not as a legalistic way of being bound to some unnecessary tradition, but to identify as closely as possible to their beloved Saviour.
All of that said, and being one who has struggled myself with scrupulosity on occasion, I have found it helpful during all seasons of penance to do "just a little more" than normal. I especially found during this past Lent that when I "did a little more than usual" I was blessed and reminded of our Saviour's love and sacrifice. My hope, and I believe the Church's intent is that these little self-imposed penances will not only benefit me, but as the Church has always believed and taught, will help to build up the Body of Christ. Thank you for your humble attitude.
Deborah
Last edited on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 12:39 pm by Prodigal Daughter
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St. Francis of Assisi
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brian
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 11:13 am |
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Thank you so much Deborah. Your words mean a lot.
Darlene, I also can understand why you think what you think. Please do not let my scrupulosity scare you off from the faith. I would have this problem probably wherever I was. The CAtholic Faith only affects it in that it inspires me toward Holiness more than other churches have. But in all honesty, I have been awarned more against scrupulosity, taught what it was, and told to go easier on myself by a priest in confession. So do not take my inward struggles as the way the church wants me to feel. I just want to be as true to the spirit of the law as I can, but sometimes I get too technical. My point was that friday is a day of penance, but I already do soem penance daily, so I am wondering what else I can do to keep friday special. This is good for my spiritual life. Friday is the day of Jesus' death. It is therfore seen as each weeks lent leading up to the Easter of Sunday. I think this is beautiful. I hope someobdy else answers your post better, but I fel like maybe you could look at this differently, or in a better light tthan I provided in my scrupulosity. Fact is the churhch is very lenient on the Friday penance as it exists now. I am not sure I entirely understand it, but they simply ask you not eat meat, but that you can simply substitute any penitential practice instead for the day. So this would mean that anything could probably count, from saying the "Our Father" to writing a nice note to somebody, to simply taking a few extra seconds to appreciate the cross or repent of personl weakness or just teliing God you love Him. It need not be something you worry will set you captive in a way like your cult did. It binds us together with the mind of the church.
Anyway, I just hope you can realize that though there are more "laws" in Catholicism that it is not as legalistic or harsh perhaps as people like me make it seem. There is lent, fridays, go to confession and receive communion once a year around Easter time. These are easy to fulfill, and most people should want to do much more than that. Not sure if I am missing anything. I am in a hurry, so I have to leave now.Not sure if I said what I wanted to say. Hope you are not too discouraged by my example.
Brian
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maryjean
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 11:40 am |
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| Something I read about once (don't remember where) is to fast until 3PM on Friday's. I try to do this, but it isn't always easy (especially if friends want to do lunch!) It's a little thing, just a bit of a sacrifice to get hungry before eating. But I try to remind myself of all the people who won't get to eat at all that day and that being what my grandmother used to call 'a mite peckish' isn't really all that hard. It's just a little added discipline for the day.
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Psalm 4
jean
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 12:06 pm |
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| I have never equated Friday penance with scrupulosity(?) or even an examination of conscience. I don't think, well I've done this and this and this, so now the church says I have to skip meat today. It's because, I think, Friday is the day Christ died, and I am showing reverence, willingly and of my own choosing. I try to do something a little uncomfortable to acknowledge His discomfort. It's between Him and me, and He knows if what I do is truly a sacrifice or an empty motion. I may give in to someone in a small conflict that I don't really want to do just for the sacrifice or I may be very kind to someone that I don't really like. That can be a true sacrifice! The important thing is the church expects us to be aware of this day and recognize the significance of it. Anyway, that's how I see it!
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 01:22 pm |
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In reading all the posts on this subject, I realize that there is a balance. As David pointed out to you Brian, "you are being legalistic and exacting to the max."
Dear Deborah: I understand why you looked beyond Brian's tendency to scrutinize and at his heart. However, it is extremism in the ideology of suffering that results in taking away from the glory of God. Thus, we see that there are people in the Phillipines, who actually allow themselves to be crucified on a cross during Easter. Now as to how popular that is currently, I'm not sure. But it was a practice that was not uncommon for many years. Of course, we know that doing such a thing bears no merit. And then we can look to the monks in the middle ages who practiced public flagellation. They thought of themselves as such wretched, dispicable sinners, that they beat themselves till they bled. This also, adds no merit to one's salvation. Another example we can look at is that of Origen, an early church father. He castrated himself thinking he was pleasing God. He took suffering just a bit to the extreme, wouldn't you say?
What do you think God thinks of a child of His, who thinks he is so disgusting that he must punish himself so that he is suffering physical pain? So it is that I say this kind of scrupulosity can actually be harmful in the way that a Christian views Himself through the lense of our Savior and harmful to the gracious work of the Holy Spirit within. And it can be harmful in the way that one lives out his daily Christian walk.
Do I think suffering is necessary in order to be a Christian? Most definitely. St. Paul says in Romans 8:17 that suffering is a necessary part of becoming heirs of Christ: "provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him." But how do we suffer? Is it not by putting to death the deeds of our flesh? (such as are mentioned in Gal. 6) And is it not by denying our flesh and resisting these worldly passions that we are following Christ's command to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Him daily? I also would say that another way in which we share in Christ's sufferings is when we are rejected for His name's sake. As St. Peter says In I Peter 4:13-14: "But rejoice in so far as you share in Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are reproached for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you." Now I realize that this is just skimming the surface.
We can give glory to God in our physical sufferings as well, and I have witnessed this, and it is indeed a beauty to behold. A dear sister in Christ whom I had known, suffered from Hodgkins disease. She became a bright light, telling others about Jesus everytime she went to get kemotherapy. She radiated a joy I have seldom seen in Christians. In her last days, she showed such courage and displayed such peace and confidence in Christ. She was ready to meet Jesus and had lost all desire for things worldly.
However, legalism can and does creep in. And in the case of our brother Brian, I think he has the propensity toward being too hard on himself. While I suppose one can see there being some amount of suffering to not eating meat on Friday, wouldn't you say there is just as much suffering if not more, in the examples I gave above, which are scriptual?
I just don't really see the significance in this tradition of not eating meat or doing penance on Friday. And I don't know where in church history there was such a penance. Perhaps if someone can show me, I would be glad to acquiesce.
Does my resistance to such traditions come from my background? Of course. I lived in a "Christian" environment where suffering was stressed all the time. Thus, I gave up my right even to have my individual thoughts. We were made to believe that we had to suffer by evangelizing everyday and suffer rejection in the name of Christ. When we prayed, we called out to God, saying what wretched sinners we were and felt that we deserved nothing. We were publicly humiliated if we didn't lead others to Christ. And we denyed our flesh, often times eating very poorly and getting very little sleep. We slept on the floor, since sleeping on a mattress was being "into the flesh." We owned nothing since owning a home or property was being "into the flesh." I could go on but I think you get the picture.
So yes, I do understand suffering. But I look at suffering today in a much different light and will not ever go back to that kind of life style again. And when I look back on it, I didn't experience a closeness to Jesus through all this suffering. So what did it merit me, I ask?
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 01:57 pm |
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Brian your questions remind me that I really don't do enough myself.
Brian if you don't consider meatless days penitential, it is perfectly okay to consider something else. Without exception, every human being prefers their own way. The objective of penance is to break our inherent selfishness and work on self-control. I admire your sentiment of wanting to achieve the spirit of the law. Yea, giving up meat is acceptable and satisfies the discipline. If you know in your heart that you could do better, there is nothing wrong with thinking this through to doing something else.
Any of your ideas are good. One branch of my family gives up sweets and deserts. Extra prayers, no t.v., no mindless shopping, driving 5 miles under the speed limit [especially painful to impatient people like me], greeting daily that obnoxious person at work, these are some ideas. Man, we could dedicate a whole thread to creative ideas naming something that would drive us each crazy.  One lent my brother gave up catsup when we were kids. This was the worst lent of our lives because my good brother was miserable. This penance was worse for him than walking on live coals. The point is, give up something that makes you happy to which you have a right and do it for God. Or as David suggests, do an action like a work of mercy.
As far as social fun, good food, partying and whatever, its all about how much stamina you have. If I don't eat meat for the day, well, then that lasts all day and that's the end of it. However, some days this is an inconsequential penance, and other times its worse. It depends on what God sends me that day. If I go to a restaurant and there's little meatless fare, well, then it becomes more annoying because I must order anything meatless they have and I may really hate that food and I'm still hungry to boot! Or being invited to a party and the ribs and special sausages smell fabulous. That's a time when I'm digging my nails into my hands to resist!
To Annie's point, the bare minimum may feel inadequate but you don't have to kill yourself either. And adding so many prayers where they become a burden and an impediment to doing your duties isn't the idea either.
David's recommendation for spiritual advice is right on. Just as we have different personalities, so too are our spirits. Good spiritual advice from another objective by someone who knows us helps. Most are not called to be hermits or called to severe penances, yet it is appropriate for some. Over-the-top zeal is not unusual at all for new conversions of spirit, which may temper over time. These choices depend on spiritual depth and charism, as well as where you are in your spiritual journey.
I read somewhere recently that forming an intention helps to avoid mindless fasting. Its not a bad idea to offer up your penances to some objective, even if it is simply for your sanctification. For instance, Mary asks us to attend Mass on First Saturdays in reparation for blasphemies.
The objective is, to put it lightly, to inconvenience ourselves. If we cannot deny ourselves in the smallest way, such as making ourselves eat lentils or denying ourselves a sugar cookie or addressing Christmas cards for an invalid, how will we withstand it when the emperor demands that we offer incense to the gods to preserve our life? The martyrs did not achieve martyrdom overnight, but had learned by doing acts of selflessness little by little.
To Darlene's point, penances in the extreme are not the end in itself. This is why Jansenism [such as Puritans] is a heresy. Taking licit joys out of life is wrong. Jesus railed at the Pharisees' lovelessness and lack of forgiveness, all while they hypocritically practiced penance publicly. At the same time, Jesus' whole life teaches us the way of self-denial. How many of us have fasted in the desert for 40 days?
The Catholic Church does make demands on its members, just as all rightful Authority should do. At the same time, Holy Mother Church does not cross into the precious personal boundaries of free will. This is how holy Authority and unjust authority differ. The Church while directing us to make the best choices, still allows us freedom to make those choices. The Church is our Mother and loves us as the best Mother could. Its really all about love.
Last edited on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 02:01 pm by Tina in Ashburn
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Darlene
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 02:06 pm |
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I also have other questions regarding this tradition of penance on Friday.
If one does not observe this penance, is it considered a mortal or venial sin? If so, why? Is it looked at in the same light as attending Mass, Confession, and partaking of the Eucharist? Is it necessary for one to be accepted in communion/agreement with the Church? In other words, is this a rule/practice/tradition which the Church imposes on the faithful or is it something suggested? Can a Catholic respond by saying something to the effect that they choose rather to do penance differently?
Please bear with me on this. I just don't see the point of this practice. Honestly, I think of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for me everyday. But I believe God wants my life's actions to be a willing and joyful response to His sacrificial love for me. The Holy Spirit is supposed to be living and active within me, inspiring me and guiding me to love and good works which He is revealing to me. Such sacrifices are pleasing to the Lord, because it shows my submission to the Holy Spirit and it shows the Holy Spirit's working God's will within me. Man made impositions, I believe, squelch this working and inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
For example, as a child matures, what is most pleasing to the parent is when the child shows their love willing and of their own accord. I can remember times when my children, of their own volition, wrote a card for me, expressing their love for me, because they wanted to. This was a willing and joyful response. What proceeded from their heart was a gift of love to me, which they thought of, not something I told them to do.
Just more of my thoughts.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Prodigal Daughter
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| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 03:22 pm |
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Dear Darlene,
I am truly sorry that your negative experience in the cult is making it difficult for you to embrace the Church’s most beautiful teaching on redemptive suffering. It is this teaching that not only saved my marriage but has helped me to overcome many emotional struggles over the years. I also believe that when you do come to understand and embrace this teaching, the idea of penance will no longer seem like an imposition but instead will be another way to joyfully express your love for Christ.
It has been said that the one thing all Saints have in common is that they know how to suffer well. Maybe you could find a Saint who you admire and ask for his/her intercession regarding this or even read some of their writings. One modern interpretation of redemptive suffering that I have appreciated is John Paul II’s "Salvific Doloris" http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/popes/johnpaul/salvific.dol I hope this helps.
Blessings,
Deborah
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 03:58 pm |
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Dear P.D.
Thanks for responding to me. I was concerned that perhaps I was a bit to radical in my tone. If I offended, I apologize. Honestly, I do believe that suffering is necessary. I do also can appreciate the beauty of redemtive suffering more and more as time goes on.
The real problem I am having is with man-made imposed rules which have no real value in checking the indulgences of the flesh. I do see that the Church's teaching on attending Mass as an obligation is a good one. Also, that Confession should also be stressed as well. I just have a difficult time with some of the Church's traditional practices that seem to have little benefit in putting to death the deeds of our flesh. I think God wants us to willingly of our own, choose the penances we will do and when we will do them for "God loves a cheerful giver" not one who does things constraint.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Prodigal Daughter
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 05:38 pm |
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Darlene,
You haven't offended, I understand that this Catholic journey is a struggle for you and you remain in my prayers.
PD
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 08:54 pm |
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Darlene wrote:
The real problem I am having is with man-made imposed rules which have no real value in checking the indulgences of the flesh. I do see that the Church's teaching on attending Mass as an obligation is a good one. Also, that Confession should also be stressed as well. I just have a difficult time with some of the Church's traditional practices that seem to have little benefit in putting to death the deeds of our flesh. I think God wants us to willingly of our own, choose the penances we will do and when we will do them for "God loves a cheerful giver" not one who does things constraint.
Darlene
while reading through this thread, I just had to go get my Catechism and look this up. I knew we were just not quite explaining this in the manner for you to view it in a different lite and other than a law (so to speak) so I have some information in the catechism that I'd like to share with you to see if it may help you and is where you are coming from.
CCC1428 Christ's call to conversion continues to resound in the lives of Christians. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church who, "clasping sinners to her bosom, {is} at once holy and always in need of purification, {and} follows constantly the path of penance and renewal." This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work. It is the movement of a "contrite heart," drawn and moved by grace to respond to the merciful love of God who loved us first.
IV. Interior Penance CCC1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.
CCC 1437 Reading Sacred Scripture, praying the Liturgy of the Hours and the Our Father--every sincere act of worship or devotion revives the spirit of conversion and repentance within us and contributes to the forgiveness of our sins.
CCC 1438 The seasons and days of penance in the course of the liturgical year (Lent, and each Friday in memory of the death of the Lord) are intense moments of the church's penitential practice. These times are particularly appropriate of spiritual exercises, penitential liturgies, pilgrimages as sign of penance, voluntary self-denial such as fasting and almsgiving, and fraternal sharing (charitable and missionary works).
I also wanted to add a bit of information from the "Catholic Sourcebook" by Rev Peter Klein. I thought you asked a couple of times about where the practice began or how long it had been a tradition. I know your not talking about fasting before communion but I still thought this information was pertinent.
Fasting before communion has been a practice from ancient times. It was prescribed by the Councils of Carthage (254) and Antioch (268) and became universal practice by the fifth century.
Even by the time of Christ, fasting and abstaining were venerable traditions of piety among the jews. The practices were not foreign to Christ (Matt 6:16 Mark 2;20, 9;29) or the apostles (Acts 13;2, 14;23). In teh early Church, a two or three day Lenten fast was common. It was not until the fourth century and the Council of Nicaea that a forty-day period was mentioned. In the Middle Ages, the rule relaxed somewhat, with a light second meal and fish allowed. From time to time and place to place, there has been variation in practice, but consistency of spirit; the life of a Christian is a life of penance.
The friday pennance is not like a big deal or anything, I view it as my private pennance that I willingly out of love of our lord just want to participate in. for myself food has never been much of a sacrafice so I tend to do somthing else. Each person is pretty much free to just pick something they really enjoy and give it up. I rarely to never even mention to my husband or anyone what I'm doing and I don't like it when anyone knows. It's kind of my own interior offering to Jesus that only he & I know about. These types of penances can be done on any day or how ever often we want. As father told me "Don't go all fanitcal or over do it"
I don't think our dear Brian meant to come off as too leagalistic, he's just excited about his new faith and he's working very hard trying to do everything he can to please our Lord. It's a beautiful thing and I truly do believe that it's in the hearts intent that is most important of all. fortuneately for us, Our Lord is the only one reading our hearts as our simple gestures are as nothing to his, but he loves us and allows us to try to do what we can to please him and also the obediance is very good for us who live in a society that revolves around self gratification on every level and some of us seem to think that giving up something we want is too much of a hassle, so we don't even consider trying. How many people do we evangelize to that act like giving up an hour or two on Sunday is asking for some dreadful inconvience to their sleeping schedule. I've found the different obediance activities have been very good for my soul and I've enjoyed everyone that I've been blessed to participate in. Lent is my very favorite spiritual time of year, I love growing closer to our Lord and am so grateful that he lets me.
I hope this did not further confuse you and thank you for letting me try, If I made any errors I'm possitive that some kind person will come by to correct me.
I also wanted to tell you that sharing your experience's in the Cult have been very imformative for me. I know it must be hard to share with us and also to trust and not second guess every thing to make sure it is truth. You have a right to want to fully understand everything and I'm thankful that your here with us.
God Bless
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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