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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 03:14 pm |
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I'm involved at a weekend evangelization retreat at the church. Last night, there was a service in which a deacon laid hands on each of us with the intent of our being filled with the Holy Spirit. We were warned that some may cry, laugh, or be slain in the Spirit. No one did, and I found myself relieved at that. I tried, but found myself not very open to what was going on. I have to confess that the charismatic side of the faith gives me pause.
I was envisioning the Toronto blessing and other, what I consider, sort of kooky stuff.
What is this service?
Oh, and I also hear a lot of use of the phrase "made my retreat," as in "I made my retreat in 1990." What is the significance of making a retreat??
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 06:46 pm |
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Jill, what you describe is generally called a spiritual healing service here. I have attended a couple of these because they were nearby, I personally knew the priests involved, and my minivan was handy for transporting others who wanted to attend.
I'm not sure I would be comfortable attending such a service unless I had a great deal of confidence in the priests involved. Some folks had specific spiritual problems/needs with which they were seeking help or deliverance. Others were encouraged to ask the Holy Spirit to do whatever work He felt appropriate in that individual's life. I asked for a more humble and obedient spirit.
Several persons (whom I know to be honest and stable) did indeed "rest in the Spirit." A few wept quietly. I believe it was a helpful experience for me. However, as I said, I personally knew these priests. We must be careful, I think, to avoid spiritual lust--seeking spiritual highs just for their own sake. It is also very important to avoid forming conclusions about a person's spiritual maturity simply on the basis of a response (or seeming lack of response) at such a session. In the same way we really shouldn't condemn or praise persons simply because they have or have not received one specific spiritual gift or manifestation.
Making a retreat is a common way of preparing for a big decision or for a big change in one's life. Persons about to take vows go on a retreat, sometimes for as long as a week. You may remember that when Kayla was facing a big decision about her softball career, Rick suggested she make a retreat.
It is also a good way to invest in one's spiritual health. It's like a scheduled time to get away and focus entirely on one's relationship with God. As a Protestant, I did the Emmaus Walk. After my confirmation as a Catholic, I began looking for a good retreat to strengthen me. I attended a silent retreat on Abandonment to Divine Providence. It changed me and changed my life. Much depends on the retreat, the presenter, and one's disposition at the time.
Here's the thread on my silent retreat. Click here.]
Last edited on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 08:26 pm by Intercessor
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"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Didi
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
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| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic; almost left; Now an On-Fire Catholic! |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 08:19 pm |
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I have struggled with this in the past as well as we are part of a Charismatic apostolate. What I disagree with is when they say that everyone should receive the gift of tongues, because Paul clearly says in 1 Cor. Chapter 12:4 that there are varieties of gifts but the same Spirit; and continues in verses 27-31 to say that not all have the same gifts.
I have also been to some charismatic "healing" services that all but promise you will be healed in you're only open to God. This is also not what Jesus taught, or what Paul reveals in many of his epistles. And rarely do they bring in the element of redemptive suffering, which is so important for those who are sick to hear about.
The problem with these approaches is that it leaves people who don't respond in a certain way, or who don't receive the gift of tongues, or who aren't miraculous healed, feeling as though something is wrong with them, or that their faith isn't strong enough. I think this is terribly sad.
I do agree that we should ask often for the intervention of and gifts of the Holy Spirit, but always being open to how God wants to work in our lives and use as as instruments; not for what we want selfishly for ourselves.
The group I am a part of did recognize that we have already received the Holy Spirit on many occasions (baptism, confirmation, etc.) so I was grateful for that; and in the regular prayer meetings and assemblies the gift of tongues is not really emphasized. Some Charismatic groups approach this as though we've never really received the Holy Spirit before, which, of course, is not true.
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Hidden One
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 08:30 pm |
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I have found St. John of the Cross, in Ascent of Mount Carmel, most enlightening on the subject of charismatic gifts and experiences. If you want excellent (but exceedingly difficult, in the John 6 sense) teaching, that book's one for you.
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1 John 4:7-12
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BillK
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| Joined: | Sun Jan 6th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Revert to Catholicism (dabled in Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, Messianic ... |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 09:41 pm |
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I've been to many evangelical services where some of these more "exotic" charisms seem evident. I'm not sure how authentic they are. Seems to me that many who have these gifts seem to have an attitude of spirtual superiority and the presence of the Spirit at a worship service is too often judged by the amount of hand raising, tongue speaking, and spontaneous prophesy. One thing that I've noticed is that so many seem to speak in toungues but I've yet to meet someone who can interpret toungues. I'm pretty sure the bible says that one should not speak in tongues unless an interpreter is present.
Another thing that I've noticed too is that so many people seem to seek out this gift yet, according to St. Paul in 1 Cor 13, these gifts are useless without love and love is the greatest gift of all. Don't know about people in this forum but one thing I've realized in my journey is how difficult it is for me to TRULY love. Seems to me we should all be praying that the Holy Spirit would teach us to love authentically and sacrificially.
I sure do love this forum! God's Blessings to all of you!
Bill
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 754 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 10:01 pm |
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This was not a healing service. It was simply part of an RCIA retreat weekend. They called it an evangelization retreat. So the intent of the service was not for healing or for receiving special gifts of the Spirit; it was simply to receive the Spirit. They said we might feel peace or warmth or might laugh or cry or fall down.
And the phrase I'm wondering about is "I made MY retreat, " almost as if they were saying something along the lines of "I made my confirmation." Not A retreat. MY retreat. I guess it's not that big a deal, but coming from Protestant-land, it's not a phrase I'd heard before.
Thanks for the help, but I'm still not sure if my question was answered.
John 3:8 The wind (spirit) blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Can we call upon Him as we wish and expect Him to comply?
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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BillK
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| Joined: | Sun Jan 6th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Revert to Catholicism (dabled in Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, Messianic ... |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 10:51 pm |
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| I'll look into this in more detail if no one responds by the time I get back. I think, as part of RCIA, this was what is called the first scrutiny. Not sure of the details but I think it is for those already baptized and is an invition to once again invite the H.S. into ones life. My experience was that the Priest lays his hands on the catechumens head and gently blows on the persons head. It seemed a little weird for me at first but if you think of the Preist as acting "in persona Christi" it has great potential.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 10:59 pm |
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Jill, following is an exposition of the place of spiritual gifts, or charisms, as they are called, in the life of the Christian, adapted from a passage in Divine Intimacy, by Fr. Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen, OCD:
St. Paul shows us in 1 Corinthians 12:2–11 a soul vivified by the Holy Spirit, who diffuses his gifts in it. The Apostle mentions charismatic gifts; that is those special graces, such as the gift of tongues, of knowledge, of miracles, bestowed by the Holy Spirit with great generosity upon the primitive Church. Although these are very precious gifts, they are inferior to sanctifying grace and charity, which alone give supernatural life to the soul. Whereas charismatic gifts may or may not accompany sanctifying grace, they neither increase nor decrease its intensity thereby. St. Thomas Aquinas notes that while grace and charity sanctify the soul and unite it to God, these miraculous gifts, on the contrary, are ordered for the good of another (cf. CCC 799–801) and can subsist even in one who is not in the state of grace. St. Paul also, after enumerating all these extraordinary gifts, concludes in 1 Corinthians 13:1–3 that without charity, they are “nothing.”
It is also worth noting that Paul mentions in this passage none of the things you were advised of — neither crying, laughing, nor being “slain in the Spirit.” Instead, we see things like the utterance of wisdom and of knowledge (two of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, infused into the soul by God to make it more docile to his inspiration, subsequently put into practice through the charisms for the benefit of the Church; see CCC 1830–1831), demonstration of great faith, miracles, prophecy, discernment of spirits.
Tears are fairly common, but they are not considered a charism. I myself was overcome by emotion recently when recounting to someone the history of a person I know who has come out of a life of sinful self-seeking and, through years of suffering and trial, has advanced greatly in virtue and favor before God. The only thing this represents to me is that I deeply appreciate this person’s courage and greatness.
The wording “make a retreat” is a conventional set phrase coming from historical translations that are too literal, like “assist at Mass.” You can ignore its strangeness and interpret it as “attend a retreat” — or better, as “participate in a retreat.” For if one just sits there and does not respond to God’s prompting, the retreat has not happened, it is not “mine.”
Regarding your final question, “Can we call upon Him as we wish and expect Him to comply?” — In John 14:13–15 and 15:7, Jesus tells us that he and the Father will do whatever we ask in prayer — IF we abide in him, meaning if we are obedient to his will. What this means is not that we have a “power over God,” as a sorcerer is said to have power over the spirits he conjures up, but rather that we share a common purpose with God, allowing his will to become our will. Therefore, if we ask for something according to that will, he will grant it just because it is his eternal will to do so.
David
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hpj0828
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| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 141 |
| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer, Hebrew Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 11:24 pm |
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I have experienced a great many of the spiritual gifts listed in the NT. They have not usually come in group meetings in my experience, but have come in specific ministry situations where they have been of great assistance in meeting urgent human need through God's compassion and power.
I don't talk about these gifts very often, unless they are of direct importance in meeting such a need, or unless I am discipling someone else in how to use them. They are very dear to me, because in some extreme situations, they have even saved human lives.
It took me a long time to learn the difference between the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as those listed in I Co. 12 and the fruits of the Holy Spirit, graces of character, such as those listed in Gal. 5. Sometimes, I would see a person who ministered in a powerful spiritual gift, only to be perplexed by another situation, in which the same person showed great pride and little love or senstivity to others.
The difference is quite simple: Giftedness does not imply maturity.
This is true either in spiritual gifts or other talents. Think of the prima donna ballerina or opera star, or pop vocalist. Some of these individuals are phenomenally talented and gifted as artists, yet those who work with them find them very difficult to get along with. Such people can be prideful, arrogant, contemptuous of others, mean-spirited, obsessively jealous, threatened by others they fear may be more talented or successful than they have become or fearful that they may lose some of their treasured gifts due to age or infirmity. The Hollywood star who is a truly fine human being is, unfortunately, the exception rather than the rule.
There is a balance to be struck here.
On the one hand, great gifts and talents are to be developed and used for good. Which of us wants a US President who does not have the gifts required to excel at his/her office? Even if such an individual is a truly good person, is it OK to be a disaster at foreign policy, or the environment, or our economy?
On the other hand, God, who is the giver of all gifts, is not impressed by us, simply because we use what He has given us. He wants us to love Him and one another and to mature in character. Which of us wants a US President who is a corrupt and immoral person? Can such a person truly lead our country into God's purposes for us?
We need mature and loving ministers of God's grace to us, who are not afraid to use the powerful gifts of the Holy Spirit for our benefit. We are all at a loss without them.
There is a need to disciple gifted people and to hold them accountable. Too many are like falling stars who are lost unnecessarily to pride and temptation. We also have to have patience while they develop these gifts. All of us start out our lives as spiritual babes. The long walk to maturity takes time and has many humbling lessons for all of us!
"Pursue love and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy." I Co. 14:1.
Henry
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HPJ
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rbo4u2
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 451 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 11:25 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
Regarding your final question, “Can we call upon Him as we wish and expect Him to comply?” — In John 14:13–15 and 15:7, Jesus tells us that he and the Father will do whatever we ask in prayer — IF we abide in him, meaning if we are obedient to his will. What this means is not that we have a “power over God,” as a sorcerer is said to have power over the spirits he conjures up, but rather that we share a common purpose with God, allowing his will to become our will. Therefore, if we ask for something according to that will, he will grant it just because it is his eternal will to do so.
David
 Hi gang. Good comments David. Years ago, in the mid 60's I was quite involved with the burgeoning charismatic movement. I'd met Katherine Kuhlmann backstage at the I think it was the Pantages auditorium in Los Angeles, and at the time, was impressed. I'm not so sure I'd be as impressed today, knowing what I do now.
I met and ministered on the platform with a man from Indonesia, Mel Tari, famed for his book describing modern day miracles on the Island of Timor in Indonesia. Miracles of healing, walking on the water and raising from the dead. A personal friend of mine who was a missionary at the time witnessed some of those events.
I've been in the churches, small group meetings and watched and participated in exorcisms. Yes, I spoke in tongues too, or at last I thought I did. Today, I'm not so sure if they were authentic. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. I think the last straw was a little elderly nun who came to one of our prayer groups and announced she was there to pray for anyone with fillings in her teeth because she had the gift of restoring brand new teeth to anyone with fillings. I ungraciously stood up, said "Good grief" and never returned to that meeting. There was a youth minister that had fallen off his horse and died. For nearly a week prayer groups all over the area were praying for his resurrection so that people could witness the power of God. I turned my back on the charismatic movement not long after that. I don't doubt that God has used the movement. I believe that all the gifts (charisms) can be used today and that the Holy Spirit anoints, fills, whatever you want to call it, for our day. But I'm also a firm believer in church authority and that whatever is done should be done under the careful guidance of the church and that all be done in decency and order.
Rich
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