 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 10:24 pm |
|
Greetings,
I have been reading "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic" and a question came to me today regarding the priesthood. Where does the office of priests in the Catholic Church originate? I am aware that there were priests in the Old Testament, but as a Protestant was told that the priesthood was abolished. Actually I believed that all Christians belonged to the royal priesthood of believers and that this was one of the reasons that Martin Luther broke from the Catholic Church. He believed in the universal priesthood of all believers.
So what do I tell a protestant that says to me that "we are all priests." And where is the office of a priest mentioned, either in scripture or early Christian history? I have no problem with bishops because their office is clearly mentioned in the New Testament as well as deacons, prophets, pastors and evangelists.
It's more of a semantic issue for me but in talking to other Protestants, this is one of their defenses against the Catholic Church. I just need to better be able to explain the hierarchy within the Catholic Church so that I have an apt response when questioned.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 228 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 11:12 pm |
|
We have Christ the high priest, and we have the common priesthood of all believers. Where we differ from many protestant denominations is that we also have the ministerial priesthood that was set up by Christ.
As we understand it Jesus was talking to the Twelve when he instituted the Eucharist, when he instituted Confession, and also when he gave the great commission "Go ... make disciples of all nations" etc.
It is a matter of church history that these twelve (11) then either passed on this commision (the replacement of Judas), or delegated a portion of this priesthood when setting up the various churches around the world.
These 12 were the first bishops and those to whom the delegated a portions of their authority were the first priests and deacons.
Regards Dave
Last edited on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 11:13 pm by DrDave
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 11:40 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: Where does the office of priests in the Catholic Church originate?
Catholic Answers has a tract on the history of the three levels of orders, Bishop, Priest and Deacon. It includes scriptural references as well as quotes from the early Fathers regarding all three levels of ordained ministry. The fact is, in addition to the royal priesthood of all of us through our baptism, there is a distinct and separate role for the ordained ministry that has existed since apostolic times.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 663 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2007 09:53 am |
|
Part of the problem, at least it's been for me, is tradtion versus what's actually in the Bible. As the fundy or traditionalist or born again or whatever your label, I'm gonna guess that you at one point viewed the Bible as the End All and Be All of your faith. You won't find it written down anywhere in the Bible about the priesthood, there aren't any neat little instructions. So if it ain't in there, it ain't true. That's what I thought. But with Tradition being a big thing in the Catholic Church, it has been handed down since the Apostle's time through tradition. It's a leap of faith for me to think that I'm following words not written down in God's book. And it might be hard to argue with Protestants who feel like I did, maybe impossible (I am pretty stubborn  ). That doesn't mean those words don't come from God, it just means he has found other ways of getting them to us, which is by Tradition.
Ali
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2007 11:09 am |
|
Ali wrote: You won't find it written down anywhere in the Bible about the priesthood, there aren't any neat little instructions.
Actually, if you read the tract I cited above, you will find it in the bible. The problem is in the way the words are translated, and the derivation of the word "priest". Jesus is indeed our one High Priest, but there have been many other priests, from the days of Moses and Aaron until today. We had them in the early Church, as recorded by Peter and Paul, and we continue to have them today. So this is one area where Sola Scriptura supports Catholic teaching, and the fundamentalists have chosen to ignore it.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 663 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2007 11:43 am |
|
cajunrick wrote: the fundamentalists have chosen to ignore it.
That's the whole problem, really.
I can read the pamphlet and look the scriptures up in the Bible, even the Catholic Youth Bible I have here at my desk, and it uses terms like elder and evengilist or even servent. All terms I'm familiar with, considering my background. When I'm reading those scriptures the words priest and bishop aren't mentioned. Even the pamphlet said that the apostles used the terms and words somewhat interchangably, and there wasn't concrete meanings for them until the second century. Well, according to the way I was raised, the church was already corrupt at that point. No point in even considering it.
What I meant in my reply is that there isn't a handy dandy little set of black and white, irrefutable instructions found in the scriptures. For me it comes down to what I want to believe. You can find pretty much anything to back up whatever it is you are trying to sell, no matter what it is. Good and bad.
Please read this in the non-argumentative tone it is meant as, lol. 
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2007 12:42 pm |
|
Ali wrote:
cajunrick wrote: the fundamentalists have chosen to ignore it.
What I meant in my reply is that there isn't a handy dandy little set of black and white, irrefutable instructions found in the scriptures. For me it comes down to what I want to believe. You can find pretty much anything to back up whatever it is you are trying to sell, no matter what it is. Good and bad.
That's true, and that is exactly why the three-legged stool upon which the Truth stands must include both scripture and tradition.
If, 2000 years from now, I look back on every letter you've ever written, how much of your life can I experience? Will I know how you felt about a job, or what political beliefs you held? Will I know about your trips and vacations, your ministries, your thoughts on social issues? When a person dies without a will, why aren't their wishes perfectly clear? Why do we need witnesses, often with conflicting testimony, to tell us what someone else thought and meant?
The apostles were not professional authors. They didn't have a blog. They were active ministers. They wrote occasional letters, but the majority of their teachings were verbal. Peter ministered for how many years after the death of Jesus? I think it's generally conceeded that he ministered for another 20-30 years before he was put to death. How many of his letters do we have? Is it reasonable to assume that everything he taught is contained in those few letters? Paul spent years in some cities. Is it reasonable to assume that everything he taught is written?
So like a trial, we have to look to the testimony of witnesses to understand and fill in the written record. Scripture does not contain the full record; it's only the written part. Other witnesses wrote their recollections of the oral teachings, and that's what we call Tradition. The basis of Tradition is the writings of the early Fathers, and the later teachings of the Doctors (i.e., the most brilliant minds) of the Church. And only when gaps remain, as they sometimes do, do we turn to the Magisterium.
So in the heirarchy of Truth, the record of scripture, properly understood, is primary. It is not primary because it is more important that Tradition and Magisterium, but because it is a part of Tradition and Magisterium.
Tradition, is next, not because it is more important than Magisterium and less important than Scripture, but because it expresses the understanding of Scripture through the oral teachings of the apostles as expressed by the Magisterium. It is part of Scripture and Magisterium.
And Magisterium is the final leg, not because it is less important than Scripture and Tradition, but because it completes Scripture and Tradition. The Magisterium is the living faith; it interprets Scripture and Tradition in today's world.
So we have an ordained priesthood because an ordained priesthood has existed since the days of Moses and Aaron, as expressed in Scripture (Hebrew and Christian), explained in Tradition, and understood by the Magisterium. When you take away any part, the stool of Truth falls.
And that's why Protestant doctrine cannot express Truth. Scripture does not contain "a handy dandy little set of black and white, irrefutable instructions" because it is not a complete record. That is particularly true when the record of Scripture is distorted, Tradition discounted, and Magiserium considered disreputable, as in some non-Christian faiths which even deny the Divinity of Jesus and the existance of the Trinity.
On the other hand, the combination of Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium produces a nice "handy dandy little set of black and white, irrefutable instructions."
It's called the Catholic Church, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
We have ordained bishops, priests, and deacons because the Catholic Church (through Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium) says that's the way Jesus intended.
Please read this in the non-argumentative tone it is meant as, lol.
And that's exactly how I took it. 
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 06:07 pm |
|
Thanks Rick,
I am going to print out your reply. Yours is one of the most excellent explanations I have read!
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 183 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 26th, 2007 11:35 pm |
|
Ali -
As you may already realize, you'll find the words presbyteros and episkopos from which come priest and bishop used in 1 Tim 3:1-2, Titus 1:7, Phil 1:1, the Didache, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus for example. The "job descriptions" for these positions remained the same over the centuries, even though the Greek terminology is not in use in our time.
You said -
"What I meant in my reply is that there isn't a handy dandy little set of black and white, irrefutable instructions found in the scriptures. For me it comes down to what I want to believe. You can find pretty much anything to back up whatever it is you are trying to sell, no matter what it is. Good and bad."
Rationalizations have to be measured against a "Tradition" of continual useage, as you mentioned in a previous post. The problem of finding as you say "irrefutable" instructions in the Bible is not with the Bible itself, but with interpretation, and the authority behind the interpretation.
Every denomination has a "tradition" from which proceeds it's own Biblical interpretation. I remember Marcus Grodi relating when one time he realized he was his own pope. He had a Bible in one hand and a book of denominations in the other, and was searching for a church that fit his own theology.
When one is caught in that mode of just "me and God" then the descisions are subjective in the extreme, and the churches have to keep splitting in an effort to obtain purer applied Biblical doctrine, and people keep moving around in search of what they hope is the real deal.
God bless.
|
|
|
Current time is 05:17 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
